Zaflis, what faction is that?

Your screen shots cant be used as proof because you could have change the tax rates or trade routes.

From using what is on the screen your terrans produce 1038 dust + 5936/4 from industry conversion which gives 2522 and the jungles produce 900 + 5949/4 which gives 2387. That an extra 135 (5.7%) not 229 as the rest come from empire system % bonuses and trade I think. I hope I got all that right.



My main point was that terran isn’t just the best, end of story, there are other things that can effect it.



Kind of off topic (This should go in a thread for Dust VS Industry for production.)



Even if you only have heroes on a couple of systems these would be your main production ones so they could focus on industry (whatever planet type gives the best) while your smaller systems focus more on dust which can be used to rush fleets where they are needed. It would work just as well having all your systems focus on dust, which I think arid does better than terran, but then you need to keep pressing the purchase button which isn't very fun.



You can get +20% to FIDS from different resource monopolies so if you get industry and not dust and combine it with a temple and/or a wonder and/or UE affinity all giving industry% bonus to the system or reduced industry cost (also from builders/militarists traits) and a hero then it would be better to use jungle planets or even methane. And then you’ve also got to consider the exploitation.

(I have not tested if builders/militarists also reduces dust purchase costs but their descriptions say industry cost)



It also depends on your play style, I'll give you an example with my late game play style with Automaton affinity.

My systems focus on industry with the best (with heroes) easily stacking over 40K every 4 turns, but normally around 60K. The smaller systems use dust conversion most of the time except when an enemy fleet gets past my border fleets then they use their stacked production to make ships. This allows you to create defence fleets where they are needed very easily without worrying about dust and there is still plenty of dust to rush a few more fleets if they are needed, but they never have been for me on single-player.

So by focusing just on industry it saves me a lot of time and clicking and I’m lazy so I would count that as better.



I agree most of the time terran will be the best/easiest because it balances dust and industry but sometimes it's not and it can make a big difference.



Sorry this post ended up longer than I was expecting.



@ Stealth_Hawk isn’t that orange one an Amoeba specific improvement

Taure wrote:


@ Stealth_Hawk isn’t that orange one an Amoeba specific improvement

Ah, so it is. Well at least that means the affinity wasn't throwing the process.

Stealth_Hawk wrote:
Ah, so it is. Well at least that means the affinity wasn't throwing the process.

But I don't think that's fair either, they're both using hyperscale farms but jungle benefits from the industry one more than the farms doesn't it? That could be one of the factors to it.



But if terran is better, maybe that's why AI always terraform to it?

stasik28 wrote:
But I don't think that's fair either, they're both using hyperscale farms but jungle benefits from the industry one more than the farms doesn't it? That could be one of the factors to it.



But if terran is better, maybe that's why AI always terraform to it?

True, The farms would give more to a Terran, thus boosting its industry with adaptive industrial systems.



That user should change the exploitation to make it fair.



But I think Terrans are better all around, and thats why the AI terraforms to them.

I should have tried production exploitation (that 3D..something) on jungle planets. I forgot they might get a bonus because of jungle.

Terran +1 more food with food exploitation on class I planets.

jungle gets +2 more production than other planets with prod exploitation. This might make the industry closer to dust, but i don't know how all the system improvement bonuses calculate it. (I mean there's 1 improvement that adds flat +100% food output. There's not as many production bonuses i think. And the production bonuses are added anyway, after Adaptive industrial systems on planets with food aswell.)



I already deleted the game (not zipped one) from my computer, so it would take a little time to do more testing. I played game on custom amoeba based race, which was also uploaded in this post:

/#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/11437-artificial-combat-timer-needed



edit: No, food exploitation is much better on jungle. On my last similar endgame test, i lost over 300 industry when i put 3D-replication plants on jungle worlds, instead of Hyperscale farms. In this game the terran worlds had surprisingly even higher industry than jungle worlds did. I played that on United empire, with 50% tax rate.

Zaflis wrote:
Simply terran is better than jungle in late game. And i have pictures to prove it.

Jungles: 5949 production, 2792 dust

Terrans: 5936 production, 3021 dust

Difference Jungle +13 (+0.2%) production, Terran +229 (+8.2%) dust. Which one would you pick, tiny amount of more production, or much more dust?

Actually, nothing can beat developed methane giants. Just look at this:









10000+ production on single system. It makes a massively mass production achievement a joke))) I hope developers introduce a new one for 10000+ production. Thinking how much higher production can get with good affinity in such system (United Empire), gives me the creeps.

^Yup, this. Though of course faction specific tech and affinities can make a huge difference (amoeba are better than normal on Ocean, Automatons are better on Terran, Pilgrims are actually just fine living on gas giants), in general the best choice for industry is gas methane, and the best choice for science is gas helium, if you can afford the approval hits. This is not true for Large or Huge worlds (which are always best off as tier I planets, due to the difference in population size), so ironically if you're trying to "garden" the galaxy and convert it all to your wishes you're best off turning existing Gas Giants into Jungles and tiny jungle worlds into Gas Giants. The exception is of course if you have an explored moon *and* an anomaly which increases population size, then it's always best off as a gas giant. If you converted Ella VI in the picture above to a Jungle I guarantee it would (marginally) increase the total production value of the system.



Note that this is all well and good when you're just playing around, but the trouble with both Gas Giants and Tier I worlds is that they are ludicrously expensive to terraform into. Yes, a tiny Gas Methane with crowded planets, endothermic structures, living habitats and psychological insulation will produce 6 more industry per capita and have 1 higher population cap vs a lava planet. So overall, with max population a gain of 80 industry. But think if there was a system improvement available which said '+80 Industry to system, -10 approval' with a cost of 2800 Industry (meaning it will take 35 turns to pay itself off). Would you build that at any point other than as the last thing the system builds? I've been compiling total FIDS values to make an easy to read chart detailing the total production values of a planet of various types and sizes vs other options, it's tough to make it easy to read when the surveyed moons and anomalies make such a difference in the optimal choice though. But regardless, imho the best terraforming option is Lava. It's relatively cheap, it provides a huge boost in industry to a fresh, non-improved system, and it has a low opportunity cost even at the end, so you can leave it be and you'll be just fine. I'm not saying every planet should be Lava (not by a long shot!) but in my opinion no developing system is complete without one being lava, ideally the smallest planet possible (tiny and small only, medium or larger and it stops being worth it to the same extent).

That's some necromancy going on here. Keep in mind the original post was from 2013. That being said there have been tons of balance changes since then. Also pretty much every type of planet has it's uses, mostly depending on faction and traits, and somewhat on situation. With a Sower affinity there is nothing that could beat tundra planets for example, simply because even their tech tree gives specific strong bonuses to tundra planets.

Well, I'm glad for the necro revival. As a player still learning stuff, I really liked the methane giant tip.



Was always going for Terran for balance, or Jungle for bit more production - until finally getting that late game end tree tech that converts surplus food to production and switch to all terran plus food techs.



But the methane giant tip is really cool, helps a ton, and you can use it a lot earlier in your games since gas giant transformation is available so much earlier. Didn't really even think about changing gas giants - even without terraforming to get the increased population size, I'd rather have a 6 pop methane vs 6 pop helium in a system that is lacking production.



Have had games where I had core systems that just sucked at production and seems like converting a few non-methane to methane is much better way than converting other planets to lava. Good tip!

Not saying necros have to be bad, but in my experience it is best to point it out, to avoid confusion for others. And yeah, it's definitely worth to know about the methane gas giants.

Yes, there's no point in building that improvement if the population is not full because then you'll never get a full population.

Genaral consensus among the community is to just not use AI governers, they never make the best choices for your systems. In addition, to the best of my knowledge, it is better to terraform to jungle for industry, as you also get the bonuses from 3d replication plants as well.

Transform to Terran tech comes a little earlier in the tech-tree. So are you sure that they didn't start it after you had the tech for Terran-transformation but before you had the tech to transform to Jungle?

Once it is a Tier 1 Planet the Govs won't transform it another time.



Also keep in mind that Adaptive Industrial Systems convert food to production and since you can boost your excess-food by 130% the additional food from the food-exploit of a terran will actually give you more industry than the additional industry from the industry-exploit from the jungle.

Genouious wrote:
Genaral consensus among the community is to just not use AI governers, they never make the best choices for your systems.

That's because noone actually bothered to mod them enough to make the best choices. I think I'm pretty close with the AIParametersBuilding.xml that is also included in the SaveTheSowers-Mod. But there is a bug regarding Moon-Explorations. For some reason they are always top-priority regardless of what AI-value you assign to them.

Ail wrote:
Transform to Terran tech comes a little earlier in the tech-tree. So are you sure that they didn't start it after you had the tech for Terran-transformation but before you had the tech to transform to Jungle?

Once it is a Tier 1 Planet the Govs won't transform it another time.

This could be; I will test this next time I launch the game, by manually terraforming a planet to a lower tier and wait to see what the AI governor will do.

Ail wrote:
Also keep in mind that Adaptive Industrial Systems convert food to production and since you can boost your excess-food by 130% the additional food from the food-exploit of a terran will actually give you more industry than the additional industry from the industry-exploit from the jungle.

But what about science? Aren't ocean planets the best for science output?

Ail wrote:
...



Also keep in mind that Adaptive Industrial Systems convert food to production and since you can boost your excess-food by 130% the additional food from the food-exploit of a terran will actually give you more industry than the additional industry from the industry-exploit from the jungle.



...

That´s false even with the technology Adaptive Industrial System you get more Industir output with jungles plantes with food exploit

Ail wrote:
Also keep in mind that Adaptive Industrial Systems convert food to production and since you can boost your excess-food by 130% the additional food from the food-exploit of a terran will actually give you more industry than the additional industry from the industry-exploit from the jungle.

That's interesting. So maybe there is a reason to terraform your planets to Terran after all

Teodosio wrote:

Ail wrote:
Transform to Terran tech comes a little earlier in the tech-tree. So are you sure that they didn't start it after you had the tech for Terran-transformation but before you had the tech to transform to Jungle?

Once it is a Tier 1 Planet the Govs won't transform it another time.

This could be; I will test this next time I launch the game, by manually terraforming a planet to a lower tier and wait to see what the AI governor will do.

Ok I have tested it.

I have terraformed back a terran planet to tundra. Next turn, the AI governor (focus: science) puts in the build queue the terraform of that planet to terran.

Why is that? Shouldn't the planet be terraformed to ocean, since the AI governor focus is on science?

Genouious wrote:
Genaral consensus among the community is to just not use AI governers, they never make the best choices for your systems. In addition, to the best of my knowledge, it is better to terraform to jungle for industry, as you also get the bonuses from 3d replication plants as well.

I'll never use AI governors myself, on account of my being a horrible control freak (I made myself Empress of my custom faction for a reason). But yes, the breakdown of resource yields from each planet is roughly +2 FIDS/person, but with Terran planets, it's +4 dust/person, Jungle is +4 industry/person, and Ocean is +4 science/person. The general method I use is, once I colonize a planet and select an exploitation, I terraform it into the correct planet to match that. ^_^ Exploitations are kind of like little post-it notes for myself in a way.

The difference is very minor in production at that stage and the game is honestly way over before you could even make this a hard decision. But since we are all already here, since the difference is so little the +2 on Terran make's it the better choice(as a Sophon player consequently having a natural hatred of I think that says a lot) plus you don't have to go out of your way to get the tech for it.