From what I can gather from the screen shots on the "Harmony guide - We need you" thread. The sowers got hit hard losing the Ind on Desert.

Even with lava's improved Ind, it can not sustain as much pop and is farther down the tech tree.



At the moment, I would really like to see the sowers become a "tall" faction. However, tall mostly concerns factions whom go after dust/science victory conditions. The sowers (going by lore) pursue neither, yet have no real power to expand like the harmony. In fact, the sower's own trait (tolerant) works better on the Harmony (seen in the Harmony Guide discussion).



I think the sowers would be somewhat better off still receiving the old 50% Ind to Dust/Sci conversions, but that might not be enough.

I need to wait for the new expansion to see exactly how the sower's do, but I don't think the Devs did much directly to them.

Tainted wrote:
From what I can gather from the screen shots on the "Harmony guide - We need you" thread. The sowers got hit hard losing the Ind on Desert.

From what I can get, the Sowers got impounded in disharmony. The last thing the Sowers needed in my opinion was a nerf.

Sorry for double post, but we added a new section at the OP. Kind of hard to miss....



If you dont agree with our sentiment on the Harmony, thats fine. However, we just want you to consider our proposal seriously.

I believe we are overreacting here, just 2 more days and you can play the expansion, and the improved sowers. These screen-shots you've seen don't even tell half the truth about the improvements and changes made in the expansion. I cannot give away detailed info about the changes; but I believe that the sowers have been improved (played with them this morning) and are now back in the race for galactic domination

Let me just say the following to this:



I tested the sower affinity extensively (5 hours for one game and I didn't even finish...), yesterday. I was able to keep up with pilgrims and horatio played by DMT and Eysteinh for a large portion of the game, even being in the front of the score for some time.

Now you may ask: But why didn't he win, then?

Well, because I didn't comprehend a few things about the sowers that are new beyond their affinity. Had I used those to my advantage early on (and attacked DMT who was too peaceful, again...), this could have gone another way.

My old motto with the sowers was to settle everything, especially lava and methane planets. This is still true, especially after rebalancing, as these planets have little to no food by themselves, just loads of industry.

My new motto though would be to terraform everything to tundra planets.



Also I have to say that sowers do get an alternate method of generating food for growth, early on. The terraforming should be a strategy for the middle of the game. In a few turns I was able to close up towards DMTs impressive FIDS, once I utilized that, but it was already too late.

Nosferatiel wrote:
Let me just say the following to this:



I tested the sower affinity extensively (5 hours for one game and I didn't even finish...), yesterday. I was able to keep up with pilgrims and horatio played by DMT and Eysteinh for a large portion of the game, even being in the front of the score for some time.

Now you may ask: But why didn't he win, then?

Well, because I didn't comprehend a few things about the sowers that are new beyond their affinity. Had I used those to my advantage early on (and attacked DMT who was too peaceful, again...), this could have gone another way.

My old motto with the sowers was to settle everything, especially lava and methane planets. This is still true, especially after rebalancing, as these planets have little to no food by themselves, just loads of industry.

My new motto though would be to terraform everything to tundra planets.



Also I have to say that sowers do get an alternate method of generating food for growth, early on. The terraforming should be a strategy for the middle of the game. In a few turns I was able to close up towards DMTs impressive FIDS, once I utilized that, but it was already too late.

Good to know, thanks

adder wrote:
I believe we are overreacting here, just 2 more days and you can play the expansion, and the improved sowers. These screen-shots you've seen don't even tell half the truth about the improvements and changes made in the expansion. I cannot give away detailed info about the changes; but I believe that the sowers have been improved (played with them this morning) and are now back in the race for galactic domination

1) I wont be in town on the 26th, so this whole thing is for Sov to do as he wishes.

2) By what Nos tells me, they might get a boost in SP yes...

3) However we are by no means convinced about MP and want to run a MP game of our own like we have done in the past (No VIPs invited jk)

4) Boycotting the harmony is a pure IF scenario. If the Sowers are saved, there is no boycott whatsoever. If they are not saved.... different story



EDIT: Poll and Petition are pretty much closed. I think the devs got what they needed from them lol

Stealth_Hawk wrote:
3) However we are by no means convinced about MP and want to run a MP game of our own like we have done in the past (No VIPs invited jk)

I was talking about a multiplayer game and my own custom faction with sowers affinity against all the other custom factions with adder (Horatio affinity), Eysteinh (Horatio affinity), DMT (pilgrim affinity) and Ail who got off with standard Hissho, I believe.

Nosferatiel wrote:
Let me just say the following to this:



I tested the sower affinity extensively (5 hours for one game and I didn't even finish...), yesterday. I was able to keep up with pilgrims and horatio played by DMT and Eysteinh for a large portion of the game, even being in the front of the score for some time.

Now you may ask: But why didn't he win, then?

Well, because I didn't comprehend a few things about the sowers that are new beyond their affinity. Had I used those to my advantage early on (and attacked DMT who was too peaceful, again...), this could have gone another way.

My old motto with the sowers was to settle everything, especially lava and methane planets. This is still true, especially after rebalancing, as these planets have little to no food by themselves, just loads of industry.

My new motto though would be to terraform everything to tundra planets.



Also I have to say that sowers do get an alternate method of generating food for growth, early on. The terraforming should be a strategy for the middle of the game. In a few turns I was able to close up towards DMTs impressive FIDS, once I utilized that, but it was already too late.

Harmony seems like to be the better Sowers.

Harmony + Tolerant trait ? Colonize everything

Harmony Affinity = Colonize everything without approval malus = no need of the expensive optimistics trait.



New Tundra ,Lava and Methan Industry value no Industrie for Desert anymore? (Desert was early researchable, even pickable with race traits)



--> so you are forced as a sower to take Tolerant Trait 25 race trait points

You are not Harmony so u got Approval if you wanna still colonize lava and Methan you have to take Optimistics another 25 race trait points gone.



So its cost 50 race traits points to make them playable, where other races can spent them elsewhere to boos Food Industry Dust Science,military,or just anything to want.



There lies a big injustice.





Well i surely will need more then 5 hours to make valid tests and numbers

i just saying that iam suspecious of that a some new things beyond their affinity could bring them to one level with the other races (not including horatio and pilgrims pre Expansion they were also Underpowered)



You also have to be in mind that the the other races *by sure* also got new possibiltys and toys which will make the already powerfull races again Overpowered in comparison with the minor slave races. (The Devs know who the OP Faction are...they say it by themselfes at 8:30 http://www.wikia.com/File:Twitch_Tuesdays_-_Dev_Showcase_of_Endless_Space_Disharmony)





i will do my tests, lots of them then i can say more.

-> i just saying i keep suspecious. <-

Sovereign, I did NOT take tolerant as a trait the last game I played. I did not take optimistic, either.

As a sower, I was just building buildings so fast, I had most of my empire growing, producing dust or science, when I was not building anything new I just researched.



No need to dump 50 points in either of these things, now.



Actually I took the following build for my Symphonic Metal Sowers:

3x attack oriented : -7 points

2x dust archaeology : 4 points

3x builders : 24 points

2x powerless warriors : -5 points

1x mineral richness : 5 points

1x optimal structure : 10 points

2x snipers : 14 points

2x strong alloys : 20 points

1x new sheredyn malus : -10 points



As you can see I did specifically not take the old standard stuff, but something along different lines.



Actually, with this build I had a 5/5 fleet with mid range lvl 1 kinetics in orbit of DMTs homeworld to say "hello" around turn 30 in a fast game and he wasn't able to shrug that old fleet off for a long time, losing some ships to me. That put a nice brake on his economy.

the point is the main thing what is often pointed out are the new Methans and Lavas and their synergy with tolerant trait as an *help* for the sowers that was my post about. Not about your game party.



try to colonize many lavas and methans without optimistic...good luck with that.





PS:

5/5 Fleet on fast at turn 30... is the game realy so slowed down without the +40 Science from the Magnetic field generator? with other races(no not sophons) i normaly have Dreadnoughts at turn 30.

Sovereign wrote:
PS:

5/5 Fleet on fast at turn 30... is the game realy so slowed down without the +40 Science from the Magnetic field generator? with other races(no not sophons) i normaly have Dreadnoughts at turn 30.

There are several things in place to slow the game down. No flat bonuses like that, some changes of the techtree and other expansion limiting mechanics.

Looking forward to balanced Sowers



Is "builders" really that usefull a trait for sowers? Sure with the tendency to colonize high industry worlds it really speeds up Improvement construction but is "evenfasterconstruction" really worth 24 traitpoints? What Sowers need are more Industry points as they get "free food" from them not a discount on Improvements. It clearly goes well with their lore but especially with "Space cadets" it's a pretty lousy trait. Now a faction with low Industry would really benefit from the discount, but the sowers imho don't profit as much from the trait as they would from some sort of direct industry boost.

I'd appreaciate someone with more experience to enlighten me on this topic.



PS: this is not a proposal to change the sowers, I'm merely surprised Nos chose this trait for his sowers.

Sovereign wrote:
i just saying that iam suspecious of that a some new things beyond their affinity could bring them to one level with the other races (not including horatio and pilgrims pre Expansion they were also Underpowered)

Again; assumptions are being made without knowledge of the current status of the game. Not that I want to discourage you from making assumptions, that is.



For now; The pilgrims are the best race in the game - and sowers are doing roughly equally good as them. This is of course depended on who plays what race but in the end I believe that all races are getting quite balanced. I have of course not played alot with the old sowers so I can't be 100% sure about things, but for now stuff looks good. (in Balancing terms.)

Isent that the nature of assumptions.

Ca_Putt wrote:
Looking forward to balanced Sowers



Is "builders" really that usefull a trait for sowers? Sure with the tendency to colonize high industry worlds it really speeds up Improvement construction but is "evenfasterconstruction" really worth 24 traitpoints? What Sowers need are more Industry points as they get "free food" from them not a discount on Improvements. It clearly goes well with their lore but especially with "Space cadets" it's a pretty lousy trait. Now a faction with low Industry would really benefit from the discount, but the sowers imho don't profit as much from the trait as they would from some sort of direct industry boost.

I'd appreaciate someone with more experience to enlighten me on this topic.



PS: this is not a proposal to change the sowers, I'm merely surprised Nos chose this trait for his sowers.

The reasoning behind choosing this was to have my industry free for doing other things than building stuff. The machines have more uses for that than before.

Also I had very low tax and ran my economy by ind->dust and my science by ind->science.

Industry is paramount for the sowers, there are no direct and few indirect industry gain traits and, finally, the sower empire is best run when you built what you needed to build as fast as possible and get on with the important stuff.

hmmm, well that seems reasonable, Having the Queue free for the industry conversions, indeed seems a good thing for sowers, even more for nilla sowers with space cadets.

I'm glad to hear that the Sowers where looked at and though of during the changes the new expansion brings.



I'm just curious about adder's assertion of pilgrims dominance (over siphons) and sowers being rather close. I'll just have to play the game and find out myself.

What really makes it worse is: I really like the idea behind the sowers, love to play them but they are simply said BAD^^



Signed

So, what are your thought on the new sowers?



The +5 happiness seems rather weak, but remember it comes at 0 upkeep, so thats not too bad.

+2 FIDS on tundra effectively turn that planet type into the most desireable enviroment - a really powerful tech.

The nerf on the "prod % -> food %" trait makes for a slower early and mid game, but the late game improvements really (over)compensate for that.



The changes on planet FIDS are "so-so":

The new Tundra feel like a nerf for the early game, but thanks to the increased conversion %, Sowers get a lot more "bang" for their "prod" whenever they have nothing else to do (and converting to food now gives them a growth option).

Methane and Lava are quite amazing now (esp. if you can get one with a positive anomaly) and overall it feels like Tolerant has become a lot more useful thanks to higher FIDS on low tier planets.

Desert on the other hand is now rather "meh" for the Sowers, so the mid game conversion into desert planets has become a lot less attractive. In fact: Arctic seems to be superior, so I guess limited terraforming until we have Tundra transformation is the way to go.



I think what really helps them throughout the game is the increased % for conversion.

It doesn't sound like much, but together with the production-heavy Tundra, the Sowers can really pull off some amazing stuff with their idle planets.