How do you most efficiently protect against Missiles?

Just pile on a crapload of flaks ?



I still seem to lose half/full fleet after last phase is over.

For blitzing my opponents I do;



First, the Vanguard fleet. Mostly consistent of Laser and shields.

I goes in, and clear out enemy ship and moves to next system. Here it sets up a camp.



Invasion fleet, moves in to capture the system. It usually consists of 4x Combat battleship + 3x

battleship with tank and about 10 invasion modules.



If I see a ship bypassing the Vanguard fleet, I pull all fleets back one step.

Most of the time, the Invasion fleet can take care of itself. Sometimes it is enough to just move a Hero to it.

(If my opponent is a missile-spammer, then I'm really careful)

Thanks for the info. "Combat calculus", LOL. This is why I don't play multiplayer and I want to help improve the AI. I have learned that in auto-resolve, the player AI does not play *any* cards, which is quite a drag.

davea wrote:
Weakening armor is not the right reply to decoybuilding (IMHO). The order in which the AI selects your ships to target is wrong. That is not affected by reducing armor. Well, perhaps they will do more about that, in some future build. Can you update on what you find the best builds with 0.30.5? Fill up destroyers with missiles for attack, and spread in some cruisers which are filled up with armor? Also, do you have any advice on best builds for *ground* attack?

I do exactly what you guessed, except that unless I have a major investment in one combat tech or another, I use pure omnibuilt destroyers so they're harder to defend against. The AI seems to be able to switch to counter builds, but it never seems to build omnicounter vessels. Even if I have a major investment in one combat tech line (massively good missiles, but inferior lasers and kinetics) I still tend to stick some lasers and kinetics onto the ship. It just makes sure that the worst-case scenario isn't that bad... and nonoptimized destroyers are still strong enough to overwhelm more expensive ships more often than not!



Ground attack ships are always a weakness in a fleet. It's safest to have them come in a second wave - in which case, their requirements are clear. Good engines, lots of invasion modules. Corvettes have a discount on engine modules, so they're decent in this role. Cruisers have a discount on invasion modules and much more space to stuff them into, so they're better.



I don't usually bother, though. In my latest games, I've just taken to stuffing an invasion module or two on my decoys. It weakens them, technically, but the ship discounts make them still 'tough enough'.



I'm not a military-minded player. While I'm more than willing to detail them to people, and rather proud of the role the decoys play in my fleets, my strategies are generally unlikely to be optimal. I don't expect to be able to play multiplayer without being thrashed by those better at combat calculus.



EDIT: Also, I still use something like my old 'standard fleet corvettes', but they're a little less central now. They're more like tagalong support craft now that flock with other ships to speed transit and assist with repairs.

Weakening armor is not the right reply to decoybuilding (IMHO). The order in which the AI selects your ships to target is wrong. That is not affected by reducing armor. Well, perhaps they will do more about that, in some future build. Can you update on what you find the best builds with 0.30.5? Fill up destroyers with missiles for attack, and spread in some cruisers which are filled up with armor? Also, do you have any advice on best builds for *ground* attack?

I think I caused armor to be nerfed with my advocacy of decoybuilding. Armor gives less HP than it did in the previous build.



Armor-focused designs still seem to work in practice, though. My weaker-than-they-were flying bricks are still doing decently... although admittedly, I haven't gotten into any serious wars to test that out. The weaker armor means I've moved to cruisers with their armor discount for my decoy-type ships.

werewolf_nr wrote:
There is also a chance that some of your losses are from a bug that is being looked into.

If you are referring to the invisible missile bug in my known bugs thread, AFAIK this is a graphics only bug. Those are real missiles which have been fired, but due to incorrect graphics they are invisible.

OdorlessShrimp wrote:
For united empire, the Corvette hulls have greater tonnage discounts than destroyers (or whatever the next unlocked one is) and i see no other discernable difference between their stats. Am i missing something? If not, why not simply use corvettes.

I agree there is not that much difference between the hulls. Corvettes get -25% on engine, scout and repair tonnage, while destroyers get -20% on weapon tonnage. If what you want is the max number of weapons, and you don't care that much about speed, destroyer hulls are probably better.

For united empire, the Corvette hulls have greater tonnage discounts than destroyers (or whatever the next unlocked one is) and i see no other discernable difference between their stats. Am i missing something? If not, why not simply use corvettes.



And then larger ship types later on such as battleships

VARRAKK wrote:
How do you most efficiently protect against Missiles?

Just pile on a crapload of flaks ?



I still seem to lose half/full fleet after last phase is over.

Yes. I would also suggest the Short Circuit* or a card that increases anti-missile capacity.

*15% reduced enemy accuracy



[edit]

There is also a chance that some of your losses are from a bug that is being looked into.

Does anyone have any insight as to the combat order that's used? From my experience and what I've seen on the forums is that bigger is better (been reading the thread about small ships having no use in the late game) and that essentially everything is inferior to missiles. Best I can tell is that missiles have a small delay on them (that vague 3-turn rule -- whatever a "turn" is). I can't see any reason to use Kinetic weapons. The only reason for Beam weapons is their better ranged effectiveness to fill in the gaps between missile salvos. Based on the battle cinematic it appears that all weapons fire at once in a single burst. Does this sound about right? I've been enjoying the game so far but for as much as it tries to come off as complex and strategic it seems that at its core it's really just a matter of build as big as you can, as many as you can, and pack them full of missiles and hope you have enough flak to defeat the enemies missiles. Am I missing something?



I'd love to see some kind of class based combat -- something akin to EVE Online or traditional class based RPGs -- doesn't seem like that's the case though. Doesn't even appear to be any sort of Rock-Paper-Scissors type of order.

Platescale wrote:
Note that Corvettes also have tonnage reductions on engines, too, and engines boost the entire fleet. I play on Huge and my main production worlds are often far from the front. Getting ships to the front in reasonable time involves good engines. A flock of corvettes will boost each other to crazy speeds. It's like the Morrigi from... what game were the Morrigi from? The psychic crows with their flocks of ships.

Sword of the Stars I like to make good use of flocking too. I have not gotten to the point of having ferry-squadrons (like I did with the Morrigi in SotS) but it could happen! I find the Cravers can get really quick with these drives installed, thanks to their higher fleet Command Points and cheaper ships.



I am interested in the "light defences" build - I was tempted to use no defences, but this seemed to be a waste of some of Heroes' Defence attribute. Does adding more defence modules actually significantly increase the survivability of designs?

davea wrote:
!? Gotta try that. I don't have the patience, I guess, to play on huge. But if I can get my techs up that high I will definitely try these builds. For armor, you had opinions on the most useful techs. Which are the most useful speed boost techs?

Engines increase in size and speed boost both over time. The best engines require dedicating crazy tonnage to them. I still tend to insist on doing it... but unlike my armor-focus, I'm not pretending that's good strategy. You'll have to figure this one out on your own.

Platescale wrote:
A flock of corvettes will boost each other to crazy speeds.

!? Gotta try that. I don't have the patience, I guess, to play on huge. But if I can get my techs up that high I will definitely try these builds. For armor, you had opinions on the most useful techs. Which are the most useful speed boost techs?

The AI targetting appears to be random or at least mostly random. I salt decoys through the fleets in serious wars to reduce casualties; the decoys are rarely lost unless I'm so seriously outmatched that the entire fleet is doomed. Sometimes I load up a destroyer with massive amounts of weapons and then pair it with ONLY decoys. The enemy fire will be dispersed throughout the fleet; any shot targetting a decoy may as well not have been fired. If I get very unlucky, I'll lose the destroyer, in which case the fleet will flee.



Four decoys and a destroyer is not a fleet design that reliably solves battles in one turn, but all the casualties are on the other side, so the AI either flees or gets mopped up next turn. More commonly, my expedition forces are fleets of two decoys, two standard corvettes, and a scout ship. Replacing one decoy with a destroyer increases casualties on both sides remarkably; I'll do that if I feel confident of economic advantage so I can replace the lost ships. The scout ships always seem to suffer the worst casualties in these sorties...



Note that Corvettes also have tonnage reductions on engines, too, and engines boost the entire fleet. I play on Huge and my main production worlds are often far from the front. Getting ships to the front in reasonable time involves good engines. A flock of corvettes will boost each other to crazy speeds. It's like the Morrigi from... what game were the Morrigi from? The psychic crows with their flocks of ships.

That is great advice. Hardened framing is lowest tier, then uniform shielding, and the other two are higher, right? By the time I get uniform shielding I am already usually in multiple wars. Do you play on large maps, or slow speed? (Maybe my population growth is just too low.)



I didn't realize you used *corvette* hulls. Not even destroyer? I guess the benefit of corvette is that the repair module is -20% mass. And I suppose putting them on every ship greatly reduces the time you spent waiting for a damaged ship to come back online.



In a small ship fleet, what is the benefit of decoys? Does the AI choose by "lowest weapon mass first"? That would explain why transports get targeted first, but that seems rather illogical.

Inert hulls, monohulls, uniform shielding, and hardened framing are the facilities that boost HP. I don't swear I'm not missing something on that list. Uniform shielding is the single most important of the boosters (+25% HP). HP and armor are synonymous, so an armor-centric build will benefit tremendously from things that boost HP. Note that armor is separate from the three defense types.



Early game ship build... 3x Missiles, 1x Kinetics, 1x Deflectors, 1x Ship Repair Module, and everything else is Reactive Hulls (+40 HP, +2% HP). That'll be a good half a dozen reactive hulls, and that's my standard fleet corvette. I don't play with Pirates, so these ships don't see much use unless I mess up diplomatically in the early game. They seem to do tolerably well against the AI. 600 HP base. I don't usually have the excellent shipyard bonuses when I first build these.



Once I get tonnage-boosting technologies, I add in good fleet-boosting engines, potentially sacrificing a few layers of armor in order to create my super-flocking fleets. The essential design remains the same. So my mid-game design is the early game design with better engines.



I also include a Scout ship in each fleet, which will use 1x Missile, 1x Beam, and then the best sensor/engine techs I can put on it. Leftover space is dedicated to armor, but they still tend to be fragile. Sensors are tonnage-hogs.



If I'm in a serious war, I start producing Decoy corvettes. Decoys use 1x Missile, 1x Shields, 1x Deflectors, 1x Flak, and then all the armor I can fit onto them. It's not worth building them early game, because they only get 1 or 2 extra layers of armor. Later on, though, with tonnage-boosting technologies dedicated purely to armor, I can stuff well over two dozen layers of armor onto the ship, coming over 1,200 HP before bonuses. By the time it's worth building these, I can usually build them in the specialized shipyards, so they actually clock in around 1,700 HP. Decoys are tough ships, often being some of the most survivable in my fleets.

Interesting post. So in the rock-paper-scissors combat scheme, your feeling is that missiles rule because they come first. That makes sense. I have definitely seen AI ships *mount* flak; but it is usually one or two tiers lower and it seems likely it has no effect because of that. (BTW, you can see the details of the AI builds by using this exploit/intended design:



http://forums.amplitude-studios.com/showthread.php?2131-!!-able-to-rejoin-game-as-any-ai-player-!!



For small ship builds, I am afraid that once the +50 tonnage bug is fixed, destroyers will rule.



The techs you refer to are hardened frames and radiation proofing for upgraded shipyards. Are there others hidden in the top parts of the tech trees?



I am curious to see what you think is the best armor percentage and offense/defense percent tradeoff. Can you share some of your early and mid game ship builds?

I use small ships exclusively. Fleet-stacking bonuses means my movement rates can cross a huge galaxy one side to the other in three turns. Heavy armor and specialized ship-boosting improvements on my core shipyard worlds together mean my ships can take as much damage as heavier ships ever could. I usually play as Sophons and have research-optimized to have access to very advanced missile techs, too, so even though I don't have many attack modules on my ships, my offense is no slouch.



As for Rock-Paper-Scissors, Flak stops Missiles, Shields stop Beams, Deflectors stop Kinetics.

Kinetics fire huge amounts of low-accuracy projectiles. At close range, they have the highest damage output due to 'knife fight' ranges negating their accuracy penalties. Fights tend to be decided before they GET to close range though, so the primary use of kinetics is just to punish enemies who rely too heavily on shields and flak.

Beams fire smaller amounts of higher damage projectiles. Supposedly they're best at medium range, but I don't know how this functions.

Missiles fire one high damage missile per module per phase. The missile will launch at the beginning of the phase and impact at the end of the phase. Missiles don't seem to miss very often, but since a missile that misses means a lot of missed damage, you'll wince every single time you watch it happen.



I believe that beam and kinetic hits still do some damage through the defenses (deflectors and shields), but missile shots that are stopped by flak are stopped entirely. I'm not sure. I've never actually seen an AI ship use flak.