This is an excellent post. Very helpful indeed!

This is a really great thread/guide. It answered a lot of questions that I had that I just wasn't able to pick up from the in game literature. I'd figured out that certain defences could effectively cancel the effects of my weapons (but only after seeing previously effective fleet after fleet smashed with practically no damage done to the enemy) but I wasn't able to pick out which ones they were. Also breakdown of the tonnage helped me to figure out a more effective loadout for my ships, both in weapons and defences (though I admit I had to pause the game and come find this thread again ).



Thanks for posting it up, Ketobor.

Good thread the only thing I will say is that I like to use Dreadnaughts as Beam/Kinetic barges which works well if you get to phases 3 and 4 or are facing other Dreadnaughts but the best strategy as mentioned above is the destroyer swarm backed up by Cruisers and Battleship.

Tikigod wrote:
According to the OP, all weapons fired at all phases only ever hit at the end of the phase?



This doesn't seem quite accurate to me.



What with overall fleet HP dropping throughout the phase and ships being destroyed throughout.

This is functionally a visual effect. All weapons will have fired before damage is dealt. This merely appears to be the case because of all the projectiles still in the air. It is effectively fancy graphics, but makes no difference to gameplay.





That said, while I have tested this many times, I am willing to believe I am wrong if you have reproduced a case where a ship has died mid firing phase and not fired its weapon. Missiles fire at the end of phase 2, after damage has been dealt, but will always fire even if the ship has been destroyed. If the ship has been destroyed it will produce an invisible missile bug, to the best of my knowledge.



Missiles may also fire if the ships have died phase 1, but I can't promise that. That bug is currently under investigation.



Edit: Ah, now I see what you mean. I will edit for clarification.

Nice thread Ketobor

Combat Phases

Long Range

Weapons are least accurate in this phase. Missiles will hit the most, Kinetics the least.

Accuracy is surprisingly low with non-missile weapons during this phase. Weapons are just so generally lethal that it hardly matters.



1:Each ship fires Beams and Kinetics at a single target. They hit at the end of the phase.

2:Each ship fires Beams and Kinetics at a single target. They hit at the end of the phase. Missiles Fire at this target aswell.

3:Each ship fires Beams and Kinetics at a single target. They hit at the end of the phase.

4:Each ship fires Beams and Kinetics at a single target. They hit at the end of the phase. Missiles Hit.



Medium Range

Weapons are more accurate in this phase. Beams will do best here, others are average.



1:Each ship fires Beams and Kinetics at a single target. They hit at the end of the phase.

2:Each ship fires Beams and Kinetics at a single target. They hit at the end of the phase. Missiles Fire at this target aswell.

3:Each ship fires Beams and Kinetics at a single target. They hit at the end of the phase.

4:Each ship fires Beams and Kinetics at a single target. They hit at the end of the phase. Missiles Hit.



Short Range

Kinetics are best in this phase. It is third and generally most lethal if it has gotten this far.



1:Each ship fires Beams and Kinetics at a single target. They hit at the end of the phase.

2:Each ship fires Beams and Kinetics at a single target. They hit at the end of the phase. Missiles Fire at this target aswell.

3:Each ship fires Beams and Kinetics at a single target. They hit at the end of the phase.

4:Each ship fires Beams and Kinetics at a single target. They hit at the end of the phase. Missiles Hit.

According to the OP, all weapons fired at all phases only ever hit at the end of the phase?



This doesn't seem quite accurate to me.



What with overall fleet HP dropping throughout the phase and ships being destroyed throughout.

Deltron3O3O wrote:
every time i tried going into battle w/ missile boats they only fire once at the long range phase... then 100% of the time medium range n short range both sides just cruise looking at one another like the fleet commanders agreed to a cease fire :/

You should report that, it is a bug.





Unless those are exploding hulks coasting past each-other after both sides mutually killed each-other.

-removed n relocated to bug reports

damien007 wrote:
I love that all the different weapons and [defenses] have their own mechanics and isn't just plain rock, paper scissors like games such as GalCiv2. I think you ignored a lot of the benefits of Large ships however and that is that they gain a much larger bonus from battle actions. Repair in-particular gives large ships an advantage over smaller ones by allowing them to regain hp, by comparison fleets of small ships can't regain lost ships. however even the damage and [defense] multipliers benefit larger ships more. Larger ships also won't lose damage while they lose hp. Fleets of smaller ships on the other hand will quickly lose damage output as their ships are picked off.



Furthermore I don't think large ships have serious issues with multi-targeting unless they are using lots of missiles. As has been pointed out elsewhere focus-firing is in fact a much better strategy giving large ships yet another advantage, rather than small fleets which distribute their damage inefficiently. Currently I think small ships only really benefit from being much more effective economically, however as it stands that is enough to make them border OP. Even with the minor multi-targeting problems (which aren't a massive issue with LASERs and kinetics) I think large ships with high hp and [defense] (to take advantage of repair) are somewhat viable. I do think Large ships need to be made more econo0mically and small ships less to balance it somewhat however.



Alternatively they should "buff" the natural hp and [defense] of larger ships to further amplify their "mechanical" advantages over smaller ships. As a general rule the longer the battle goes on the more larger ships gain the upper hand over fleets of smaller ones. Stacking hp could also be considered a form of multi-purpose [defense] but isn't really viable right now IMO.



I'd also like to add that I think [defenses] should have 10% or 20% efficiency against other weapon types so that you can't be countered quite as hard, which IMO is somewhat unrealistic. It would sorta makes sense for deflectors and shields but not so much flak, but it's a game so who cares.

Alright, so I think I have enough down right now that I will get into this. The lack of multi-targeting is a large disadvantage. It doesn't ruin the ships entirely, and there are reasons to want battleships and cruisers, but dreadnaughts are just kinda pointless right now. Generally speaking I promote an combat mechanic revamp rather than a ship class rebalance. This is because of the high lethality of current combat in general.



Imagine for a moment that:



1: Defenses were much stronger than their relative weapon.

Deflection currently scales from: 0.625-2 deflection per pound.

Compare to: 0.75-2.1 Projectiles per pound of kinetics

Change to: 1-3 deflection per pound



Flak Currently scales oddly, maintaining approximately equal to its weight deflection.

Perhaps each flak system can destroy one missile of equal to or less than its rating each volley. I really cannot say. Flak currently is equivalently rated to a missile 5 tech levels above it, so I will skip this area. That said, approximately double current flak defensive ability.



Absorption currently scales from: 1.77-12.5 per pound

Compare to: 2.22-10.5 per pound of beams.

Change to: 2.6-18 per pound.



2: Defenses were imperfect.

Deflected projectiles dealt 0-15% of their damage.

This means it would take 333-44 pounds of Kinetics to kill 1 CP of fully armored opponent in a combat(less because of close range).



Defended Missiles dealt 0-20% of their damage.

This means it would take 183-36 pounds of Missiles to kill 1 CP of fully flaked opponent in a combat(3 times that in a phase).



Shielded Beams would deal 0-10% of their damage.

This means it would take 280-60 pounds of Beams to kill 1 CP of fully shielded opponent in a combat.



This means that stacking defenses becomes more valuable, because of your ability to do it. Beating opponents defenses is still valuable because you are now doing 10-20x more damage, but isn't a binary win/lose threshold for damage. This also provides more total depth to combat because of the interactions with hero stats and powers.





3: You don't even need to change anything else.

Health becomes more valuable because defenses aren't end all be all. Heavier ships naturally become more viable.



Also, you might actually end up building all 3 defenses on a ship and not be making a mistake, but the player who chooses all of the same weapon system will still beat you.

Draco18s wrote:
Seventy-five to ten?

Lowest tech, highest tech.

About 75-10 Pounds of Kinetics to take out 1 CP of base health, after defenses.

Seventy-five to ten?

Battle Actions: To be improved later.



Defense:

Magnetic Deflectors

+40% Deflector Efficiency

-20% Beam Damage

Counters: Offense



Camouflage

+40% Antimissile Efficiency

-20% Kinetics Damage

Counters: Sabotage



Energy Absorption

+40% Shield Efficiency

-20% Deflector Efficiency

Counters: Offense



Ultimate Defense

+25% All Defenses

Counters: Tactics



Illusion

+40% Fleet as Illusionary Decoys

Counters: Sabotage



Engineering:

Nano-Repair Systems

+20% Repair

-10% Friendly Weapons Damage

Counters: Sabotage



Barrier

+50 Armor pts/Ship

+10% Max Health as armor.

Counters: Sabotage



Emergency Shelter

All ships that die during this phase survive at end of combat with 5% health.

Counters: Sabotage



Offense:



Overload Weapons

+40% Kinetics Damage

-20% Antimissile Defenses

Counters: Tactics



Target Locked

+20% Beam Damage

Counters: Tactics



Beam Surge

+30% Beam Crit Chance

Counters: Defense



Dust Warheads

+25% Crit Chance for Kinetics and Missiles

Counters: Engineering



Tactics:



Adaptive Strategy

+25% Weapon Damage

-20% Defense Efficiency

Counters: Engineering



Power Convergence

+300% Efficiency to next action.

Counters: Defense





Sabotage:



Weapon Disruption

-25% Enemy Missile Damage

Counters: Offense



Short Circuit

-15% Enemy Accuracy

Counters: Defense



EMP

-20% Enemy Antimissiles

-20% Enemy Shields

Counters: Defense



Armor Weakpoint

-20% All Enemy Defenses

Counters: Engineering

I love that all the different weapons and defences have their own mechanics and isn't just plain rock, paper scissors like games such as GalCiv2. I think you ignored a lot of the benefits of Large ships however and that is that they gain a much larger bonus from battle actions. Repair in-particular gives large ships an advantage over smaller ones by allowing them to regain hp, by comparison fleets of small ships can't regain lost ships. however even the damage and defence multipliers benefit larger ships more. Larger ships also won't lose damage while they lose hp. Fleets of smaller ships on the other hand will quickly lose damage output as their ships are picked off.



Furthermore I don't think large ships have serious issues with multi-targeting unless they are using lots of missiles. As has been pointed out elsewhere focus-firing is in fact a much better strategy giving large ships yet another advantage, rather than small fleets which distribute their damage inefficiently. Currently I think small ships only really benefit from being much more effective economically, however as it stands that is enough to make them border OP. Even with the minor multi-targeting problems (which aren't a massive issue with LASERs and kinetics) I think large ships with high hp and defence (to take advantage of repair) are somewhat viable. I do think Large ships need to be made more econo0mically and small ships less to balance it somewhat however.



Alternatively they should "buff" the natural hp and defence of larger ships to further amplify their "mechanical" advantages over smaller ships. As a general rule the longer the battle goes on the more larger ships gain the upper hand over fleets of smaller ones. Stacking hp could also be considered a form of multi-purpose defence but isn't really viable right now IMO.



I'd also like to add that I think defences should have 10% or 20% efficiency against other weapon types so that you can't be countered quite as hard, which IMO is somewhat unrealistic. It would sorta makes sense for deflectors and shields but not so much flak, but it's a game so who cares.

What you need to know about:



Ships

Small Ships

General Traits

1 CP

Max Weight: 100

Max Health: 300

Base Production Cost: 30



Combat Notes

Multi-Targeting: Currently having many small ships is the only way to target more than one enemy in a volley.



Support Modules: Currently, larger CP ships cannot carry more than one support module of a given type. This means the only way to maximize many fleet-wide bonuses (Move Speed, Power Modules, Repairing), is to have many small ships giving these modules.



Highest Weight per CP: Small ships also are capable of making the most out of +Weight modules, granting the highest total combat weight per CP.



Easy Deaths: Small ships also have the hardest time defending in combat for a series of obvious reasons, not the least of which is defenses not stacking between ships, but weapons being capable of focused fire.





The Transport

The Good

The transport frame is a nearly strictly worse Corvette Frame. It has -40% Civilian module tonnage, but has a lower max weight and the same production costs as Corvettes. You can, however, mount a single basic engine, on a Transport along with your Colonization Pod.



The Bad

This ship really has no other use, and even would fall behind it late-game colonization if any cared enough.

This ship also has even less weight than normal for its class, by 20%. It really just isn't useful for anything but colonization, and even then..





The Corvette

The Good

-25% Engine Tonnage

-25% Repair Tonnage

-25% Scout Tonnage

Secret +1 Base speed.

Higher Sensor Range?



The Corvette is lightweight and versatile. No vessel is better suited towards creating a repair fleet to fix your damaged ships out in empire. It also has all the normal benefits of being a small ship.



The Bad

This ship doesn't really have a bad. It just might not be 'good' enough in certain areas to warrant use as a main ship for you.





The Destroyer

The Good

-20% Weapon Tonnage



No other ship in the game has reduced weapon Tonnage, making them some of the best general-use combat ships. If all you want is other ships dead, then there is really nothing that a destroyer cannot do better than any other ship of equivalent price.



The Bad

This ship doesn't really have a bad. It just might not be 'good' enough in certain areas to warrant use as a main ship for you.





Medium Ships

General Traits

2 CP

Max Weight: 200

Max Health: 600

Base Production Cost: 120



Combat Notes

Unique Traits: Mid-Range ships are notable for their easier time stacking defenses and the cruiser's unique production advantages.





The Cruiser

The Good

-25% Support Armor (Health) Tonnage

-25% Support Power Module Tonnage

-25% Support Invasion Module Tonnage.



The most notable of these traits is the Armor Tonage reduction. This trait makes cruisers capable of generalist combat in a way unlike any other ship (by surviving, sometimes). Realistically, this won't be good enough on its own(see above post), but it might situationally work out for you.



The Bad

Being a medium ship, it is less cost effective in total weight and health gained per unit of production.



The advantage to Power modules is barely existent because they are often better on small ships and, more significantly, weigh very little (with a Max of 1 per ship).

The advantage to Invasion modules is less significant than it could be, because they are simply not important in the current version of the game.





The Battleship

The Good

-20% Defense Tonnage

Secret +1 Movespeed



Battleships represent the ability to stack defenses on a ship, and a total amount of ship in one place to make this a better idea. They are generally best when leveraging advantages you already have to minimize attrition, because of their ability to cheaply stack defenses.



They are also, incidentally, good at invading because of the Invasion power implications of defense (to be in more detail later)



The Bad

This ship is, in fact, a medium ship, and therefore has issues with multi-targeting and is less cost-effective





Large Ship

The Dreadnaught

4 CP

Max Weight: 100

Max Health: 1200

Base Production Cost: 480



The Good

Uh... it's large?



The Bad

The ship has severe issues with multitargeting, has a massive initial cost, and simply represents the least efficient way you can spend resources on a ship. It is notably the only ship with no specialties or benefits at all.



I for the life of me cannot determine why you would want to build this ship except to destroy all hope for a vastly weaker player to damage you at all. Even then, it does not have the capacity to kill efficiently enough to make this worthwhile.







Ship Size Interactions

The Scenario

Lets take an example.

Imagine one side has a ship, it has 100 Weight, costs 100 command points, and has 100 health.

Another side has 100 ships. Each ship has 1 Weight, costs 1 CP, and has 1 health.



In this example scenario, the single ship must spend the majority of its Weight on defenses, as to not die, approximately 75%. That defense spread must also be exactly counter to the weapon systems of the swarm. The remaining 25 Weight can be used of a weapon system.

Each of those small ships has defense automatically by being hard to target.



The player with the swarm can destroy anyone who doesn't specialize exactly against the swarm. If he wins with his Battle Action he will kill his enemy. If he loses, his casualties are far lower than they should be because they are spread.



Later, if the player with the swarm wants to build attrition-free ships, they only must spend 20 of their weight on defenses to be immune to the initial player.





This is why Swarm based tactics are powerful in the current scenario, and why the Destroyer swarm is frequently used and discussed. It is not that the destroyer swarm is completely uncounterable, it is that it is sufficiently uncounterable that it is a necessary part of ideal play. More significantly, the overkill properties of weapons should make you understand why this will persist to an extent even if multi-targeting is possible.

I've only seen Reactive Hulls give percentage-based HP. Granted, it does give Cruisers a leg up in the early game.

davea wrote:
Which, on a ship with 1000 HP, takes 90 turns to repair from almost dead.

And that is (one reason) why destroyer swarms are awesome.

Repair mechanics may be worth a thread of its own.

Ketobor wrote:


In combat healing is only done through the Battle Action: Nano-Repair Systems.

When this card occurs, all ships heal an immediate one-time 20% of their base health (30% of block).

So, if a ship carries a repair module, but does not choose this card, then no repair happens during combat? If a ship/fleet does carry the repair module, and it adds 10%, does this increase the heal to 22% (20% + 10% of 20%) or to 30%?

Ships heal at a flat rate of approximately 10 health per turn while in friendly territory. When ships are in the same fleet as another ship with a repair module, this dramatically increases their healing rate.

I am not sure it is "dramatic". The repair module which operates on the fleet gives a 2% bonus to the fleet. Large ships come in small fleets; if we leave aside destroyer swarms, you might have 4 large ships in a fleet, which increases the repair by 8%. Which increases the rate from 10 per turn to almost 11 per turn. Which, on a ship with 1000 HP, takes 90 turns to repair from almost dead. There are multiple suggestion threads about using dust or industrial capacity to speed this up. I agree that seems needed.

This is a really good thread, though I wonder if the ships and combat will get more tuning as things progress.

Made a topic on repair



/#/endless-space/forum/33-strategy-guides/thread/14015-repair-mechanics-a-basic-guide-and-general-discussion.

Maybe not enough by itself, but it's far from the single example. Speed upgrade give a flat speed increase to the ship it's on as well. Repair modules are... well, I mostly use specialised repair/sensor ships, so the argument is moot in that department, but it could still be made.

I'm yet to reach the absolute end of any tech tree, so my observations might be incomplete.

EDIT: As for repair, the flat +HP fleet repair mods seem to distribute their flat value across all ships in need of repair in the fleet, so it would appear to be more efficient at keeping single large ships healthy against attrition.

@ TheBoz, the other two points you make are good ones, which I had not thought of before. Do you find that the +2% HP of reactive hulls or reflective armor is enough to help?



The higher repair module (adaptive glue) specifically says +60 HP, so it is flat. The lower repair module (intelligent tools) says it gives +10% to "ship repair". It is not clear if this is a percent of HP; I am not sure we can tell exactly how that works. I have "heard" that out of combat, ships repair at a flat HP rate per turn so large ships take forever to repair. In combat, I am not sure if it is a flat value or percent. For example, suppose that ships without "intelligent tools" repair 10 HP, while ships with it repair 11 HP. That is not much of a bonus. Does anybody know for sure?



I am curious, because I have proposed a high level module for the Sophons which is a *percent HP* repair. The idea is to increase differentiation for the races. This would make Sophon dreadnoughts clearly superior to other races' dreadnoughts. Please take a look:



/#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/11946-suggestion-improving-replayability-with-better-racial-techs