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3 years ago Jun 03,2021, 15:59:40 PM

Victor OpenDev Player Feedback

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About a month ago, we hosted the Victor OpenDev to give you all a glimpse of what we’ve been working on since the Lucy OpenDev last year, and to get your feedback on the direction we are taking. Many of the Victor OpenDev players confirmed that they think we are on the right track, but as always we also received a ton of constructive feedback.


Before we dive into the details of the feedback, and some of our plans to address it, we want to thank you again for your continued support of the OpenDev program. The amount and quality of feedback we receive continue to impress us, as do the participation and excitement by both players and content creators.




Without further ado, let’s take a look at some of the most common feedback we received.

  • Eras progress too quickly and Era Stars are too easy to earn.
  • Research, on the other hand, was much slower than era progression, causing a mismatch between progression.
  • Maintaining high stability in cities was too easy.
  • All basic resource yields still grew too quickly.
  • Food in particular was easy to manage, diminishing the value of farmers quarters.
  • Money was too easy to earn through various means, including vassals.
  • Buyouts with both money and Forced Labor (sacrificing population) were too cheap and powerful.
  • Influence was difficult to earn in the early game when it was crucial for expansion, but too easy to earn later when there was little left to spend it on.
  • The War Resolution screen was difficult to understand and use.
  • War Support changed too quickly even from small engagements.
  • Vassalization was too easy and provided too much money.
  • Many players disliked being unable to conquer another player's last city.
  • Some players are worried about ranged units being too powerful and giving too much “first-move advantage” to the attacker.
  • Players disliked armies being automatically included as reinforcements and losing their movement because of it.
  • Players have once again raised their concerns that the battlefield overlay is difficult to read.
  • Gaining a large amount of population in the neolithic era is still too easy.
  • There was no good reason to invest in naval units.
  • Embarked units were seen as too slow; moving across land was often faster.
  • Independent People were too easy to assimilate.
  • Religious tenets were unbalanced, with a few far too strong for proper game balance.
  • Apart from balancing, Tenets were seen as too general to inform gameplay decisions.
  • Many Civics were seen as not impacting gameplay strongly enough.
  • Civics points were too easy to earn.
  • Cultures without a Faith-producing Emblematic Quarter had no immediate counter to religious cultures.
  • Some affinities were seen as not affecting gameplay enough.
  • Among all feedback on balancing, emblematic Garrisons were seen as too weak particularly often.




As you can see, that’s a substantial list of feedback, so let us take a look at some (but not all) the solutions we are working on now:

  • We are adjusting Era Star thresholds and Research Costs to slow down era progression while bringing scientific progress more in line with it.
  • We’re looking into diminish the rapid population growth possible in the neolithic era, for example increasing growth thresholds for neolithic nomads.
  • We will re-examine naval units and naval trade to increase the incentive to engage in naval gameplay.
  • We’re continuing to tweak the economy: Food consumption has been increased, buyout costs have been increased, tribute from vassals has decreased, stability sources will be less potent, etc.
  • We’re still improving the War Resolution screen, and will add a “Zoom to territory” function to it.
  • We will re-examine War Support, vassalization and extermination of other players.
  • Armies will no longer lose their movement unless battle actually begins, so you will not lose movement on reinforcement armies if the enemy retreats.
  • We’re exploring how to make tenets and various civics more interesting and impactful.
  • We will also replace Civics points to give players somewhere to spend influence in mid to late game.
  • Ranged units will take a bigger penalty in close combat, and we have a number of other changes planned for mid and late game ranged units that should have far-reaching consequences.
  • We’re tweaking the affinities and adding new abilities to some of them.




Once again, thank you for your continued support and your constructive feedback. We will try our best to keep you informed about our progress in addressing your feedback.


Until next time!

- The Amplitude Team

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3 years ago
Jun 5, 2021, 9:33:25 PM

Those all sound like positive changes and I'm looking forward to playing on release. I'm confident the game will be good come August, but the one thing that worries me (semi confirmed from a streamer playing a more recent version) is not having a game speed slow enough for me to really take my time with each era. With the normal speed being about 300 turns, I was hoping the slowest game speed would be around 900 or 1200 turns.

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3 years ago
Jun 6, 2021, 12:18:21 AM

About vassals,

maybe it's something I missed but it felt like a dead-end for the vassal civilization. I think what is missing is some way for the vassal to break free by starting a war or forming an alliance with another strong player. That way, we would have to keep our vassals in check to make sure they don't rebel and we would still have to have some form of military presence around the vassal state to make sure they don't declare a surprise war or something of the sort. Also, maybe having a vassal should have a major negative impact on stability to act as a counterweight to the bonuses it provides?


About civics,

I agree that most civics didn't seem to have a major impact on gameplay but what annoyed me the most during the beta was that, most of the time, I got the message saying a new civic was available when I actually didn't have any civics points to spend. This meant that I just had to close the screen and tended to completely forget about it until much later.

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3 years ago
Jun 6, 2021, 5:58:44 PM

Sorry for a newbie/dumb question: I pre-purchased the game today but I am not finding anywhere where to download the Victor OpenDev? Was it for a short period of time? Thanks 

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3 years ago
Jun 6, 2021, 8:56:08 PM
tmvic a écrit :

Désolé pour une question de débutant / stupide : j'ai pré-acheté le jeu aujourd'hui mais je ne trouve nulle part où télécharger le Victor OpenDev ? Était-ce pour une courte période? Merci 

Oui, c'était du 22 avril au 3 mai.

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3 years ago
Jun 7, 2021, 8:11:17 AM
tmvic wrote:

Sorry for a newbie/dumb question: I pre-purchased the game today but I am not finding anywhere where to download the Victor OpenDev? Was it for a short period of time? Thanks 

It ended like a month ago.

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3 years ago
Jun 7, 2021, 11:48:18 AM

Thank you for developing this great game and being so open to feedback. I`m so hyped for it, played over 1500 turns this OpenDev


Please don`t forget to add a planning screen (like in Civilization) where with the help of pins and other tools you can plan ahead for the future where to place districts and how to develop cities. That is something that is truly missing, a planning tool, and is hard to just remember what you are going to do and where to place buildings to add more adjacency bonuses and stuff

Updated 2 years ago.
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3 years ago
Jun 7, 2021, 6:19:59 PM
Undernier wrote:

About vassals,

maybe it's something I missed but it felt like a dead-end for the vassal civilization. I think what is missing is some way for the vassal to break free by starting a war or forming an alliance with another strong player. That way, we would have to keep our vassals in check to make sure they don't rebel and we would still have to have some form of military presence around the vassal state to make sure they don't declare a surprise war or something of the sort. Also, maybe having a vassal should have a major negative impact on stability to act as a counterweight to the bonuses it provides?


About civics,

I agree that most civics didn't seem to have a major impact on gameplay but what annoyed me the most during the beta was that, most of the time, I got the message saying a new civic was available when I actually didn't have any civics points to spend. This meant that I just had to close the screen and tended to completely forget about it until much later.

This mechanism already exists, the vassal civilization can ask its liege to be granted freedom and the liege can decide to grant it or not. It funcitons like any diplomatic claim/grieance, so if the liege doesn't grant the vassal freedom the vassal may choose to go to war. The catch is that it is very difficult to trigger, in my experience in the opendev the vassals only asked to be freed once and it was because i was already at war with 3 other players. Even in this case, being a vassal (maybe its just the AI underperforming in general) had put them at such a disadvantage that even when one of them tried to rebel I vassalized it again easily.

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3 years ago
Jun 5, 2021, 11:12:28 AM

I think huns and mongols need to be more distinct from one another. Right now they have the same affinity, same emblematic unit, except mongols who comes later have a stronger version and the same emblematic district. The only real difference bwteen them is their legacy traits. I would at very least suggest change the mongols affinity to expansionist, medieval have 3 militarist but only one expansionist, so that change would make it two militarist and two expansionist.

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Jun 9, 2021, 4:06:47 AM

Looking good.

I've been playing the tabletop game Root and it actually comes off a lot like what 4X games could be if the numbers had to be kept simple. The effects in it are always intuitive and inform playstyles, instead of a blunt "+20% whatever" stacking with a bunch of similar statboosts. I hope you can do that with at least some of the Civics, making them something we pick for a specific reason instead of "meh this looks stronger". The culture policies in EL were good in this way.

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3 years ago
Jun 9, 2021, 10:11:58 AM

I'm very impressed by the game so far. However, something has been bothering me over the past few weeks, and I've been playing through various similar games (Civ5, Endless, AOW3, CK2 etc.) to try to figure out what it is. Finally, I believe I've worked it out.


The combination of various things - fog of war, the size of provinces, the way trade works, and others, makes Humankind a comparatively lifeless game. The difference with the other games I mentioned is striking. The world in, say, Civ 5 is full of other nations going about their own business. You can see armies moving, workers building, caravans proceeding to their destinations, friendly armies and city states - at war and at peace - all bustling with life. In Endless Legend the issue is addressed by the quest events and units prowling around, particularly in the winter, looking for pearls. These force the human player out of his borders and into interactions with other units and civilizations.   In Humankind, with the exception of the Neolithic period, that entire layer is missing. With decent placement, you can see most of what's happening within your own borders, but often that isn't much. Abroad is just a blank, apart from a few tiles around your active units. It's worth watching a few playthroughs on YouTube to get the idea. You can see foreign city and resource markers, but no movement - no life. You build your state, the AI build theirs, and the two only meet in actual wars. 


In terms of immersion, this makes a huge difference. It's not so obvious during a test run because you're still busy familiarising yourself with the game mechanics and so on. But as you play and watch the game more, the issue becomes increasingly apparent. You have no sense of what the other players are doing, what their aims are, or anything else. They don't have individualized characters, and are not telling their own stories. Compare again the game of Civ5 I just finished. in it, the Great Khan rashly declared war on the Inca early on, and became a complaisant OPM and a good trading partner for the rest of the game. The Inca in turn fought a whole series of wars against Babylon to try to recover lost Machu, but plucky Nebu not only saw them off but carved up that insufferable Rameses and his heretical religion too. Persia, Morocco and Assyria were firm friends for most of the games until the latter two backstabbed the Persian while he was finishing off Egypt. The remaining player - Arabia (me) spent the game running guns to all sides, amassing colossal wealth through trade, and launching a spaceship in 1969. Not only was my game interesting but the ups and downs of my opponents were, too. That's not something I've felt with Humankind so far, and I think it's an issue that needs to be addressed.



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3 years ago
Jun 9, 2021, 10:22:47 AM

I've become a bit more hopeful in the game, seeing that a lot of my concerns are being addressed. I hope that the affinities and civics do become significantly more impactful/interesting. 
I am however a tiny bit sad that even though the battlefield overlay was mentioned as feedback ( which was a big complaint I had); it was not mentioned on the solution's section.

 I really also hope that Religion gets overhauled a bit because it feels a bit bland. I would love to see more interactions caused by religion; thing's as heresy outbursts and ways to hinder an opponent's religion, as well as more interesting bonuses if you embrace an opponent's religion, etc...

Overall im pretty happy that the issues are being worked on, I remain hopeful for what's to come and wish the team the best.

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3 years ago
Jun 10, 2021, 8:36:38 PM

I still find the absolute exclusivity of production frustrating.
Why can't a city build units and buildings at the same time?
Please look at Warhammer 40k Gladius. There when you build a barracks you gain an infantry queue.
I would streamline it into two queues, buildings and units.
That would make me play with military units, otherwise I will always sit back and trade my way to victory, as it is wasteful to divert resources to a standing army you don't need. 

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3 years ago
Jun 11, 2021, 5:13:55 PM

Very excited to see how dedicated the company is and I liked the solutions, it's hard but we'll make it.

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3 years ago
Jun 12, 2021, 10:33:27 AM

I did not have enthusiatic feelings playing the open dev!


The graphics and map are awesome ok.

But all the rest is like a copy of endless legend...

The regions, the special income tiles you have to upgrade, the goods and the combat system is all the same as endless legends.

Yes they have added religion and citycenters from Civilization 6.

Honestly Civ6 was the worst Civ so far and citycenters and religion the last things I'd copied from it.


The one thing I hoped for was the change of Civilization during the match.

I thought it would give you a boost like a golden age in Civ3 or Civ 5...

But again a great disappointment, i even didn't like the civ specific skills.


At the moment I tend to refund this game and try EPICS Old World...


Changes:

no regions, no religion please

a more player steered diplomacy menu

golden age or much bigger influence of new civ

other civ skills

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Jun 15, 2021, 9:20:19 PM
GregoryT wrote:

My character sometimes disappears on screen and the enemy i kill off... still standing.... until I reload the game.....

I believe that would fall under general bug fixes that would naturally (hopefully) be addressed as the game is worked on anyway. I don't think this would fall under balance changes and feedback such as the things in the list of this post.

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3 years ago
Jun 3, 2021, 11:23:16 PM

Step on the right direction for sure, I hope we can test the game for the super ultra late game.
1. Naval combat and in general needs definitely a overhaul is just not engaging at all.

2. I dont think archers or any ranged unit was OP, they do get hit hard when they get attacked by melee. I dont know who said they were OP but in my case ranged units were so weak, they would tickle this armored/shielded units, knights would 1 shot them lol like ranged spam wasn't doable at all, you need a mix of spearmen and swordsmen with archers and position them well so they could do their job. 
This was my experience but everything else was spot on 100% Thank you so much

Can't wait for the next  Update I love this game

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3 years ago
Jun 3, 2021, 5:04:05 PM

I love seeing those posts, seeing what the devs take out of the OpenDev period.

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3 years ago
Jun 3, 2021, 5:22:37 PM

"Most used culture: Babylonians"

I think a lot of us got imprinted by the first open dev scenario :D


Can't wait to play the complete game!

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3 years ago
Jun 3, 2021, 6:57:53 PM

Sounds great - though making ranged units weaker in close combat will make first mover advantage worse rather than better - if you get your first click in at the beginning of the turn, your ranged units get to shoot and kill. If opponent gets first click, then your ranged units are likely dead. Of course you can retreat, but then it's a matter of wars getting decided by first click/retreating given the war enthusiasm penalties/boosts associated with retreating etc.


Why not just give defender first move or have an average army initiative to determine who gets first move (like mounted units have high initiative, pikes low, etc)?

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3 years ago
Jun 3, 2021, 9:45:42 PM
  • Players have once again raised their concerns that the battlefield overlay is difficult to read.
And you once again decided to do jack shit about it :\
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3 years ago
Jun 3, 2021, 9:48:23 PM

Thanks devs for the updates; many of our concerns about the condition of the game as in Victor Opendev are addressed here. Nevertheless, I would like to address one extra issue that doesn't seem to be covered here: Coastal Development.


As the Feedback Post pointed out, the devs are aware that players found that "there was no good reason to invest in naval units", and hope to deal with this issue by "re-examine naval units and naval trade to increase the incentive to engage in naval gameplay". This is a good direction; naval trade is an essential reason for the existence of a navy.


On the other hand, naval trade is not the only reason why people built navies. Besides the transportation of goods and armies, navy serves another important purpose - to protect cities, factories, and fields that are next to the coast or not far away from the coast, aka "coastal developments". Even for primarily land-based countries, it is very common to see over 40% of their population live in coastal regions; and many countries, if unable to build a blue water navy, will at least fund a green water navy for coastal defense, protecting their infrastructures near the coast. Basically, if you have a lot of important stuff on the coast, you are going to need at least some naval units.


Could the same logic be applied to Humankind? It could - but not currently. Currently, in Humankind there is literally no encouragement to build anything on the coast besides putting down a Harbor. Coastal land tiles don't have any benefits and only have limited tiles that a land-based quarter can exploit. "Encourage naval trade", as the devs had planned, won't help this situation, as you only need one Harbor to establish naval trade routes and building a navy, means there will only be one valuable asset on your coastlines per territory for the majority of the cultures (cultures with a Harbor/Coastal EQ are the minority).


Most importantly, even though Harbors do have an adjacency with Market Quarters - which, on paper, encourages a costal development of Markets around a Harbor - you cannot directly build off from a Harbor, or cannot use Harbor as an anchor point to build other quarters from it, currently. This situation drastically limited a player's incentive to develop the coast, as they will spend a long time building quarters to reach the coast in the first place. In addition, unable to build off from a Harbor can also limit the value of islandic regions; without the ability to build off from Harbors, one cannot put (most of) the quarters on those small islands unconnected to their City Centers. As a result - which already can be seen in many Victor playthroughs - a player often has a developed Harbor with a barren coastline behind it, which is neither aesthetically pleasing nor realistic. Imagine a New York City that only developed the tip of the Manhattan Island and doesn't have a vast metropolitan area surrounding it.


A typical Humankind city in Victor and Poe builds, which has a lonely Harbor and a large barren field between the Harbor and the City. You clearly don't really need a navy to protect this city as there is nearly nothing on the coast, despite it technically being a coastal city. In addition, it would take some time before the city can build itself onto the coast, as it cannot directly build off from the Harbor.


In any case, I would like to see the devs address this "lacking incentive to develop the coastline" issue, as it can not only deal with the "lacking incentive to build navy" problem, but also encourage a unique maritime strategy in addition to the normal land-based playstyle.

Many players, me included, have suggested that allow quarters to be built off from Harbors once again in order to motivate the player to develop the coast and building navy; it can be unlocked via a mid-game technology instead of available from the very beginning.

In addition, I would also like to add further suggestions such as "Give more adjacencies to Harbors" and "Infrastructures give additional yields to quarters on the coastlines in the late game" to encourage the coastal developments more. Infrastructures that help with coastal water yields would also be helpful, since coastal cities are relatively lacking land tiles to work with in the first place (Speaking of which - why nerf Great Fishmarkets' "+1 Money on Coastal Waters"? It is a huge hit to islandic cities, which have nearly none Industry and need those extra Money to survive).


Looking forward to the full release.


Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Jun 3, 2021, 10:01:56 PM

My suggestions about the harbors and sea are:

  • Remove the 1 territory limit, harbors is like the only non emblematic quarter that have the limit and it don't make any sense and simply feels completely arbitary, I could see something like a harbor can't be next to another harbor as a restriction but a straight up territory limit feels very arbitary. Harbors if too powerful, increase their cost rather than an arbitary limit. Certain territories like island ones are especially is hit hard with the 1 harbor per territory limit and there is cases in which you can't exploit like inland lakes because doing so would mean you can't build harbor to exploit the sea, which make zero sense and it looks very strange that alot of the coast end up unexploited.
  • Encourage costal development by giving atleast marketplaces an adjacency with the sea and even bigger one next to harbors. Right now market quarters are pretty weak in terms of yield compared to makers and research quarters and there is nearly no money terrain to exploit. By adding value to marketplaces being placed next to harbors and the sea, you will encourage costal development which in turn make naval units more important.
  • Sea Trade familiy should increase the adjacency bonus harbors get with marketplace, it make alot of sense thematically as well further encourage costal development.
If those above changes make harbors too powerful I suggest increase its price and increase its stability cost.

More changes would be:
  • Allow city centers and maybe all districts to exploit adjacent costal tiles instead of them being dead tiles.
  • Nerf land based trade and or buff sea based trade.
  • Give military ships a special marine unit, which is tied to the ship but can join in land battles in which the ship participate in. This mean military ships have some ability to attack costal cities and land units near the coast.
  • Increase the range of military ships to be similar to land based artillery which allow them to support land units greater inland.



Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Jun 4, 2021, 1:37:17 AM

My character sometimes disappears on screen and the enemy i kill off... still standing.... until I reload the game.....

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3 years ago
Jun 4, 2021, 4:40:21 AM

add cigarette smoking animation to avatar preorder bonus and i'll go ahead and buy your darn game.

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3 years ago
Jun 4, 2021, 4:42:01 AM

and i want to be able to select "Sure, whatever" as an archetype.

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3 years ago
Jun 4, 2021, 10:21:42 AM

Super retour et totalement en accord avec les sujets avancés.

Et même avec ses petits défauts, j'ai déjà pris beaucoup de plaisir à jouer. Vivement mi août. 

Bon courage à vous. 

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3 years ago
Jun 4, 2021, 1:54:39 PM

I watched the Twitch last night and despite the very impressive knowledge of Shakespeare who was quoted at length (Macbeth and Hamlet I think) my one and only criticism of HUMANKIND remains: the language of the game is a little arcane (and sometimes awkward). The terms and language needs to be simpler. More accessible.

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3 years ago
Jun 4, 2021, 7:52:11 PM

I love the changes suggested about influence and civics points. I found civic points kind of confusing to know how to use and every time I got a notification of a new civic I was excited to unlock it only to realize I didn't have any points. And I feel like once you stop expanding influence became only useful for asthete cultures, so having them tie into civics would be an amazing change.

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3 years ago
Jun 4, 2021, 9:17:49 PM

I just watched a review by a journalsit who had a newer version of the game. His counclusion was: ' Take much more time to develop the game further`. Thats what I already thought after playing Victor open DeV.This might upsep a vew people , but I think it would benefit the game allot.  One wayof justifiing it/ giving supporters a compensation is: adding a few nice feautures like an expandable zoo, which  can be expanded by sending out animal hunters, trading animals. researing dna to clone new ons / extincted ons and finaly making it Jurassiv Park.

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3 years ago
Jun 5, 2021, 7:45:33 AM

Once again, great work!

Still want to mention that Independent People were not only easy to assimilate, but to conquer too at the begining of the game. They need more protection of their cities.

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