Hey guys,

what do you think will the wonders in the game look like? Will there be wonders? I think I have somewhere read that wonders will be in the game (Egyptians have the Pyramids as a unique wonder)

It is not a "must" for me, but I always liked building wonders, because of their uniqueness and I thought they make my cities more "beautiful" in a way.

So what do you guys think: Will there be wonders and if so, what wonders do you think will be implemented and what will be there purpose?

I think that each Culture or CIV will have their own Wonder, giving bonuses to their kind of gameplay.

From the sounds of things, Egypt has pyramids as their Emblematic Building (read: unique), but the Great Pyramid of Giza is a Wonder available to anyone. 

EaglePursuit wrote:

From the sounds of things, Egypt has pyramids as their Emblematic Building (read: unique), but the Great Pyramid of Giza is a Wonder available to anyone. 

Ah okay, interesting. So there will be a difference between "Emblematic Buildings" and Wonders. Makes sense.

From the reveal page:

"Discover the natural wonders of the world or build the remarkable creations of humankind."

It doesn't specifically say "build wonders of the world".  It's possible the emblematic buildings are the "remarkable creations".  

I don't think it's likely.  I'd be surprised if anyone launched an historical 4x game without the ability to build world wonders.  But I'm not sure it's been confirmed.

id like it if the wonders were tied to the culture you play so some civs would have access to a unique wonder you could build as a unique bonus for them. That way the wonders would look more 'in place' somewhat rather than some late game cities looking like Las Vegas with scattering of mismatched wonders none of which are related to the culture that built them.

It seems likely that wonders will be in the game, at least I hope so! 

I also agree that the having wonders tied to something more than just a technology (ie culture) would be great. Since the devs have said there won't be faction quests in the same sense as EL or ES2 I wonder if there could be "wonder quests" that would could be tied to a culture selection. This could make wonders more involved in the game play than simply researching masonry and spending x production to build the pyramids.

Yeah, that sounds very nice. Wonders being attached to cultural progress could be a more realistic way to implement them.

I also think that they will look very nice. At least from the Screenshots and the few seconds in the reveal trailer it seems like this game will look pretty decent.

Per this post:

https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/humankind/forums/169-game-design/threads/34442-emblematic-buildings?page=1#post-286047

Emblematic Buildings are not Wonders

diakon wrote:

It seems likely that wonders will be in the game, at least I hope so! 

I also agree that the having wonders tied to something more than just a technology (ie culture) would be great. Since the devs have said there won't be faction quests in the same sense as EL or ES2 I wonder if there could be "wonder quests" that would could be tied to a culture selection. This could make wonders more involved in the game play than simply researching masonry and spending x production to build the pyramids.

Thats such a great idea like if you wanted to build the pyramids youd start a quest to aquire the stone or something a really involved quest line. It could really tie the wonder in by giving it a story within your civ.

Also it means we dont have the wonder races anymore which I have never enjoyed. Other players could still notice your trying to build a wonder and perhaps take advantage of the distraction.

If it's like Endless Legend or Endless Space 2, there would be "national wonder" and "world wonder"

MasterofMobius wrote:

diakon wrote:

It seems likely that wonders will be in the game, at least I hope so! 

I also agree that the having wonders tied to something more than just a technology (ie culture) would be great. Since the devs have said there won't be faction quests in the same sense as EL or ES2 I wonder if there could be "wonder quests" that would could be tied to a culture selection. This could make wonders more involved in the game play than simply researching masonry and spending x production to build the pyramids.

Thats such a great idea like if you wanted to build the pyramids youd start a quest to aquire the stone or something a really involved quest line. It could really tie the wonder in by giving it a story within your civ.

Also it means we dont have the wonder races anymore which I have never enjoyed. Other players could still notice your trying to build a wonder and perhaps take advantage of the distraction.

What if selecting a culture unlocks you wonders that are tied to that culture, i.e. only if you select egyptians, you can build the great pyramid or only if you choose china can you build a great wall?

IIRC, civilization  5 had some wonders that were tied to particular social policies that you enacted, which i always thought was a brilliant idea.

Also improving this with wonder-quests is also such a wonderful idea.

@Catodion Yeah I like that alot partly because being able to build any wonder as any culture just annoys me aesthetically such as seeing St Petersburg Cathedral and Stonehenge next to the Blue tiled roofs of Kyoto it gives off a theme park/Las Vegas vibe to me haha.

I'm gonna play devil's advocate and say that wonders tied to cultures is not something that I would like to see (or at least as something that can be turned off). While historical play is fun sometimes, having the flexibility of "rewriting history" is also a nice element of this kind of games.

I do think that it would be nice if wonders had more strict requirements in order to be built (e.g. certain terrain or adjacencies like in civ6, having certain ideological values, having a certain amount of districts or buildings or resources of a certain type) or even mutually exclusive wonders (if you have built X, you can't build Y) so we don't have the Vegas-like cities as mentioned above

afarteta93 wrote:

I'm gonna play devil's advocate and say that wonders tied to cultures is not something that I would like to see (or at least as something that can be turned off). While historical play is fun sometimes, having the flexibility of "rewriting history" is also a nice element of this kind of games.

I do think that it would be nice if wonders had more strict requirements in order to be built (e.g. certain terrain or adjacencies like in civ6, having certain ideological values, having a certain amount of districts or buildings or resources of a certain type) or even mutually exclusive wonders (if you have built X, you can't build Y) so we don't have the Vegas-like cities as mentioned above

Just wanted to chime in to say I agree with this.

I also agree.

However, I wouldn't mind if civs got a small bonus towards or bonus from building wonders historically associated with them.

Like, any civ could build the Great Pyramids of Giza, but Egypt gets a 10% Industry bonus towards them OR (not and) they get 10% more Fame from completing them.

That would probably be the best solution, Eagle.

If I had to guess, the Great wall would be a Chinese unique structure that can be built on the border between 2 regions, so long as only 1 of those regions belongs to you.

afarteta93 wrote:

I'm gonna play devil's advocate and say that wonders tied to cultures is not something that I would like to see (or at least as something that can be turned off). While historical play is fun sometimes, having the flexibility of "rewriting history" is also a nice element of this kind of games.

I do think that it would be nice if wonders had more strict requirements in order to be built (e.g. certain terrain or adjacencies like in civ6, having certain ideological values, having a certain amount of districts or buildings or resources of a certain type) or even mutually exclusive wonders (if you have built X, you can't build Y) so we don't have the Vegas-like cities as mentioned above

Woncders tied to cultures simply by the title of the Culture would be a Fantasy Game. Egypt did not build Large Stone Pyrmidal Tombs because they were Egyptians, they built them because they had God-King leaders and a firm belief in a complex Afterlife that required major preparations in this life to enjoy - and access to lots of labor between the planting and harvest and good building stone in several varieties and a watery highway (the Nile) that allowed them to move the stone to wherever they needed it.

Without all or most of those, Egyptians Don't Build Pyramids - they keep building mud-brick Mastabas, or they carve tombs into mountainsides, or they come up with a whole new Non-Egyptian answer to the tomb question.

Pyramids as Monumental Structures, please note, were also built by the Central American natives like the Mayans and Aztecs, among others, but they weren't primarily Tombs, they were Temples - and thus related to the 'Ziggurat' Temple Mounds of Mesopotamia. None of them started - as we seem to be presuming the game will - by saying "We're Mayans, time to build a Pyramid Temple" or "We're Egyptians, can't be Egypt without a Pyramid!"

Egypt Egypted for quite a few centuries without Pyramiding - by the Classical Era when Solon of Athens visited Egypt, they were already 1000 years beyond Pyramiding and still recognizably Egyptian. - and already had what can only be called 'Tourist Guides' making up lies about the Pyramids for credulous visitors from other parts . . .

Tie Wonders not to a Culture, but to elements of that Culture or elements of the terrain/religion/politics/resources that make the Wonder both Possible and Necessary to that Culture. Nobody piles up a few thousand tons of stone just on a whim: there has to be a pressing Reason for it . IF you want to 'tie' a Wonder to a specific Culture, make the Reason part of that particular Culture's attributes.

With Egypt this is not hard: their religion was unique to Egypt from the beginning of Egypt as a recognizable Culture Group, and that religion was the major driving force beyond Big Tombs Full Of Grave Goods - first in mud brick, then in Stone, finally hidden away in artificial caves in the hills. Once the religion changed - Christianity, then Islam - Big Tombs Full of Grave Goods became Unnecessary. - except for the Tourists.

BUT don't forget the other 'Pyramid Factors' - without Stone, Pyramids will be built of less permanent materials like wood, mud-brick, fired brick, rammed earth, etc, and won't be nearly as Iconic - because they will largely disappear, like China's "Great Wall" of rammed earth that is now about 90% Invisible. The Kurgans of all the early Pastoral Nomad cultures of central Asia, for example, were big dirt mounds covering stone/wood tombs Full Of Grave Goods - same sort of religious influence, different materials. But, as long-lasting as the Pyramids, in one respect: Mamayev Kurgan, the dominating Height next to the center of the town of Batu Sarai, later Tsaritsyn, later Stalingrad was for a few months in 1942 during tfhe Defense of Stalingrad the most important Terrain Feature in the World and today, topped by the monumental statue "Motherland Calls" is a major Tourist Attraction - just like the Pyramids.

Replacing Culture-Specific Wonders with Requirement Specific Wonders and Culture Specific Features Requiring Wonders opens up the game to the Alternative History without making it a Free For All. 

Take a Great Wall, or instance: Not many groups will have a long border with raiders on the other side and the economic and production strength to fortifiy the entire border. BUT, something similar to the Real Great Wall (which, as mentioned above, was almost all built of Rammed Earth or brick - only a small portion near the coast was built of stone by the Mings, and now stands as the only remnant Tourist Trap part of the original wall) was also built across central Russia by the Muscovites in wood and earth, across Britain (twice) by the Romans, and across parts of central Asia by Afghan and Persia-based societies and peoples. Why restrict Great Wall to one culture when in fact it was historically attempted by several, and frankly (although for a shorter time span) the Roman and Muscovite versions were far more successful in accomplishing their purpose than the Chinese version ever was?

This, to do it right and still have the Requisite Culture Affinities, will take a lot more work than simply labeling the only possible Pyramids in the game 'Egyptian' or the only long Border Wall 'Chinese' but If it can be accomplished, we can have Egyptian Pyramids and Mayan Pyramids and a Chinese Great Wall and a Russian/Muscovite Zasecka or Roman Hadrian's Wall - all in the same game with the right Conditions.