Kutuzov wrote:

I conclude from that that it will be in as soon as they have worked out the technical problems. 

Kwami wrote:

Well, it's a great result, yes, but...

1. They might put Denuvo into a future version of the game.

It is EXTREMELY unlikely to include Denuvo AFTER release:

Khaar wrote:

the point of implementing such a heavy DRM like Denuvo is to protect sales at launch. I've mentioned this in the OP and Romain confirmed it in his announcement:

SpaceTroll wrote:

If Denuvo can hold off a cracked version, even just for a few days, that can already really help us to protect our launch.

So implementing it way AFTER launch doesn't make a lot of sense, because most people willing to pay full price have probably already bought the game at this point.

And also would it cause a lot of negative PR when a game gets a performance consuming DRM as an update, causing decreased performance and maybe some other trouble. That's quite the opposite of what Amplitude wants!

They want both critics and players to highly praise the game to generate HYPE, so later they can sell the game at a discount to people who can't pay full price and also to sell DLCs and big expansions. Both is more unlikely when the game gets worse over time...

What's the point of implementing an anti piracy DRM if the game IS ALREADY pirated? The implementation would have absolutely no impact on the cracked version floating around!

So no, they will very VERY likely not implement Denuvo later.

Second concern:

Kwami wrote:

2. They might put Denuvo into the next game.

It depends on the outcome of the Humankind release. Amplitude is taking a risk here by releasing one of the most wishlisted games this year without Denuvo. If this goes well and most people will pay for the game and the piracy rate is low in comparison, then this will show them that a major release without heavy DRM can still be successful and there is no need for Denuvo in the future. I specifically say "heavy DRM" because Steam itself is already a DRM! Denovu is just another layer of protection.

Think about CD Projekt Red releasing both The Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk 2077 completely without any DRM at all and still had very successful launch and a ton of sales. CD Projekt always says "FCK DRM", arguing that people who want to pirate a game will do so even if the game has DRM protection and therefore the best thing to do is to not punish paying customers.

Of course this has a lot to do with CD Projekt's image out there, so I think Amplitude should consider a press release, a public statement that they decided to not implement Denuvo, hoping that people who want to play the game will respect their intellectual property and just buy the game.

This could be a smart move causing a lot of positive PR!

Third concern:

Kwami wrote:

The wording of the statement from the studio head suggests that they're only removing Denuvo because they couldn't fix the performance problems in time for release, not because of the security and privacy concerns expressed on the forums.

This honestly doesn't matter at all!

We've got what we want, that's all we can ask for.

Amplitudes was listening to us. They are removing Denuvo, we won.

We have no right to say: "We want you to give us what we want AND doing so for the right reason" !

The ONLY thing that could be discussed at this point is about a clarification statement to make sure Denuvo will not come back to the game later (but again, implementing it later makes no sense).

And this should be the end of this discussion. (maybe close this thread?)

.

Kutuzov wrote:

IMO, this is a partial win at best and it appears to have worked inasmuch as most of you are all happy campers and willing to give them your cash again and you're all best friends again. But all I see when I read that announcement is that it will not be present at launch. They seem to like the idea of having it in the game as long as it doesn't impact the performance and talked about how it is important for them to have it because of piracy. This is a project they've poured their hearts and wallets into so they seem to think the community will at least understand if not 100% approve of it being in at a later date.

I conclude from that that it will be in as soon as they have worked out the technical problems. They don't appear to have recognised that players have been saying that they don't want it AT ALL and didn't address any of the other concerns people have. To be honest, it would be really easy and popular to say that they understood the concerns expressed and so Denuvo wouldn't be in this game at all. But they didn't.

But who cares? A Denuvo-free launch is what we've been promised. Yay!

Yes you are very right in what you said, they are keeping who they were and the values they always had right know and that is great. Like you also say, they can change in the future and that is also great. If they want to ironically become like Ubisoft, the company they left to make Amplitude no problem, maybe they want to become EA or maybe someone else and that`s also cool or maybe they can stay how they are and even enhance what they built until now and that will be amazing. Everyone has their free will and makes their own choices

I always appreciated Amplitude and spent my spare time to give them help/buy all their products or give feedback, because they are pretty unique, they listen to the community, they don`t implement heavy DRM and build kill switches with it so you can`t access your game when the DRM servers shut down, they let the community modify their game files so they can come up with beautiful mods that also help balance the game like ELCP (that is extremely hard to do with heavy DRM), they don`t lie or cheat and are sincere in what they do, that is why even when sometimes they make mistakes people know they were coming from a good place and don`t mind

Now if they want to throw away this uniqueness of theirs and go in the heavily crowded area of companies that care only about the money, screw the customer, make PR stunts to get sales like overhype products and deliver quality lower than their other products, implement heavy DRM and so on that is also fine by me but I wouldn`t care about them anymore as there is so much competition in the area of doing things by screwing the customer and being all about the money so they will be level with many other companies in this field. This means I could pick like any average Joe company if I want to go in that direction to support or pick their products in such a situation

The great news is that always other new companies will emerge in the uniqueness zone like Owlcat Games or Larian or the next Blizzard whomever they will be and so on, so I am better off supporting those more when they emerge

Regarding the piracy, money and profit issues I can clearly see in the market companies that are profitable without using Denuvo or other heavy DRM, also I can see companies that do well without being sold to a publisher so there are also options if you want to try this path. I am against piracy but i`m also against screwing the customer in the name of piracy. Also as others pointed out sometimes piracy can be free advertising for your products and if the product is good and you are nice to customers a lot of pirates or people who find out about the game through them will come to buy your game and that will result in more sales

So yeah, the future can bring anything regarding the core values of Amplitude as it can bring anything in all the areas of our life both good and bad. I for one am always ready to support the good nice people when they emerge as Amplitude is now or you guys are as a community but also to defend myself or switch to better stuff when the bad or the nastiness comes out of the blue

Khaar wrote:

It depends on the outcome of the Humankind release. Amplitude is taking a risk here by releasing one of the most wishlisted games this year without Denuvo. If this goes well and most people will pay for the game and the piracy rate is low in comparison, then this will show them that a major release without heavy DRM can still be successful and there is no need for Denuvo in the future. I specifically say "heavy DRM" because Steam itself is already a DRM! Denovu is just another layer of protection.

I agree to most of your post but on the "If this goes well and most people will pay for the game" thing i might add let`s hope the game is also as good as they said and also marketed. Because in Poe Closed Beta the game seemed pretty barebones with less good mechanics and complexity than their previous 4x, with units oversimplified to just one stat "Combat Strength" and no other stats/modifiers/customization with overhyped storytelling that is in fact like just ripping 1-2 pages from a lot of books and mixing them together as opposed to reading a whole book like in their Endless games. Or maybe like watching the news in a succession of quick short events that are not meaningful, with no plot or big narration as opposed to the Endless games where it was like a movie with plot and changes of situations and a lot of tension and satisfaction that can be memorable and so on that also compensate the fact that there is no campaign scenario in their games. They have a good base to build upon let`s hope they deliver at launch what they promised: the best 4x they can do that they always wanted to build. That also can affect the sales not only DRM and piracy

AOM wrote:
I did notice a difference, I just wasn't aware that the cause of the difference was that Denuvo had been added because the dev snuck it in without clearly notifying people of what they were getting.

Good, so you had a chance to provide clear and unbiased feedback. Imagine how every single issue with the game, sometimes even made up ones, were contributed to Denuvo, if upon launching you were greeted with big flashy banner that it had one.

P.S. I believe there was a warning in HK EULA that poped upon first launch of beta. But who reads that anyway.

17. TECHNICAL PROTECTION MEASURES

This Product may be protected by anti-cheat/hacking software and/or Denuvo Anti-Tamper Protection Technology (“Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology”). You hereby acknowledge and agree to the following regarding the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology:

the installation of the Product will cause the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology to be installed on your device;
the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology may limit the number of installations of the Product;
the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology may install on your device additional components required for copy protection;
during the installation and/or the first launch of the Product, an online connection may be required to activate the Product and the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology; and
certain files of the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology may remain even after the Product is uninstalled from your device.
In no event shall SEGA be liable to you in connection with the components that may be installed on your device relating to the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology.

If you disable or otherwise tamper with the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology, the Product may not operate properly and you are in material breach of this Agreement.

You can find out about Denuvo’s privacy practices in its privacy policy: https://irdeto.com/privacy/

Kwami wrote:

Khaar wrote:

What's the point of implementing an anti piracy DRM if the game IS ALREADY pirated? The implementation would have absolutely no impact on the cracked version floating around!

So no, they will very VERY likely not implement Denuvo later.

That's just not true. Because Denuvo is an anti-tamper technology, any "crack" would only apply to a particular version of the game. Any future patches, expansions, or DLCs would invalidate the crack. Once a game is cracked, it tends to be ignored for all future versions until the game is no longer being developed and there's a "complete" edition available for cracking. So, anyone who wanted to play anything other than the pre-Denuvo releases wouldn't be able to without relying on illegal cracks.

What I said is very well true!

Everyone who wants to pirate the game would be sitting on the outdated but still playable cracked version. If they are not willing to pay for the whole game itself, then they are definitely not willing to pay just for an updated version. So, they will keep playing the outdated cracked version.

This means a later implementation of Denuvo will NOT stop people to play a pirated version!

Kwami wrote:

And, why specify that Denuvo wouldn't be there on release if they meant that it wouldn't be there at all? That's a weird thing to be specific about.

That's only how you personally interpret Romain's words, without any evidence.

For me it just sounds like Amplitude don't have the time to remove Denuvo RIGHT NOW from the developer build of the game, but will definitely do so before the release.

I've already explained what the purpose of Denuvo was for Amplitude and Romain confirmed it (protecting sales at launch). And I also explained why it makes no sense at all to implement it later.

Kwami wrote:
Look, maybe Denuvo isn't a big deal to you. I don't know. To me, it's a very big deal. I absolutely will not purchase a game that implements Denuvo.

I think you either didn't read the OP (Link) or you don't notice that I'm the guy who created this thread and started this discussion here to fight against Denuvo in Humankind!

The big oversized headline of the OP is "I'm just coming from Steam where I was about to preorder Humankind, but then I noticed Denuvo and decided not to."

Then I explained why it broke my hearth that Humankind was about to get Denuvo and why I will NEVER buy a game with it.

So maybe Denuvo was an even bigger deal for me than it is for you...

Kwami wrote:
To be frank, I don't really care what you think is acceptable dialogue or whether you think we should close the thread. It's really not up to you. Clearly, there are plenty of other people here who want to continue discussing the issue.

OK, let's be frank if you wish so:

• First, there IS NO ISSUE. Amplitude confirmed that Denuvo will not be in the release version and there is no logical argument to assume it will be in the game later (I explained why).
• Second, IT IS really up to me to close this thread! Because I'm the creator of it I have this button at the top to close it if I like to:

However, as long as discussion goes on in a civil manner I will not do so before Amplitude gives us some clarification.

So, Amplitude if you still follow this thread can you please give us a short clarification statement if you plan to implement Denuvo later after the release? This would put an end to this discussion once and for all!

Sincerely, Khaar.

.

Khaar.... They already did more than you could expect of developers these days and actually ensure us that they messed up and won't do DRM. It's literal fearmongering that they will sneak it in later as others have pointed out there would really be no point as the only purpose for DRM is to "in theory" ensure more purchases and less pirated copies. If the launch doesn't use DRM you can always have a pirated copy out on the interwebs so there is no reason to worry about this. It's just inconceivable to backtrack let alone serving as no purpose now for the future.

If you want to live in perpetual fear of this affecting a future expansion go right ahead but I would say it's a wiser course of action to relax and get upset if they were to actually do this down the line. Once proof is established that they are indeed doing it. There is nothing you can do right now to change any future possibility at this point. The developers do not owe you or me or any of us plebians any fully spelled out plan for the game on what they may or may not do. You can assume things based on previous actions but that's really it. Even then you can decide to assume things in a glass half full or half empty approach. The glory of assuming is all up to you.

I encourage you to act upon decisions Amplitude makes when they actually do it, not for what they only "in theory" may do. You'll be infinitely mad / living in perpetual fear for what could happen at any point in time rather than enjoying the here and now. Do what you want it's your choice ofc but one avenue of approach here is a lot more enjoyable and happier than the other. I wish people would get more upset about very real things happening in their country vs possibilities of what a video game "could" do to sap enjoyment.

Sublustris wrote:

17. TECHNICAL PROTECTION MEASURES

This Product may be protected by anti-cheat/hacking software and/or Denuvo Anti-Tamper Protection Technology (“Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology”). You hereby acknowledge and agree to the following regarding the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology:

the installation of the Product will cause the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology to be installed on your device;
the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology may limit the number of installations of the Product;
the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology may install on your device additional components required for copy protection;
during the installation and/or the first launch of the Product, an online connection may be required to activate the Product and the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology; and
certain files of the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology may remain even after the Product is uninstalled from your device.
In no event shall SEGA be liable to you in connection with the components that may be installed on your device relating to the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology.

If you disable or otherwise tamper with the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology, the Product may not operate properly and you are in material breach of this Agreement.

You can find out about Denuvo’s privacy practices in its privacy policy: https://irdeto.com/privacy/

Nice @Sublustris had a copy of the EULA with the info for the 17th point on it. Thanks for the info. So if we take a look at it it says:

This Product may be protected by anti-cheat/hacking software and/or Denuvo Anti-Tamper Protection Technology (“Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology”).

So it may have Denuvo or it might not have it. Are you lucky today? Do you want to make a guess about it? Is this clear wording? This looks kind of fun and i hope you are lucky today and know the real answer for this one

You hereby acknowledge and agree to the following regarding the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology:

the installation of the Product will cause the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology to be installed on your device;

Did it not said above that it just might have it or might not? Now you agree to the installation of Denuvo although above it is not sure it is in it or not?

the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology may limit the number of installations of the Product;

Fantastic news, how many times can i install it? I paid for the product, can i please know how many times i can install it so i can manage them? no? it does not matter as i already paid so who cares about me? Ok than, sounds great

the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology may install on your device additional components required for copy protection;

Fantastic news, do they gather any data and what might that be/can i know more about this? Oh i don`t need to know? I like that a lot

during the installation and/or the first launch of the Product, an online connection may be required to activate the Product and the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology; and
certain files of the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology may remain even after the Product is uninstalled from your device.

Oh files remain after i uninstall the product. Well i always wished for that! Can i know what is the need for them to remain on my pc and for what purpose as i paid for the game? Oh i`m so unimportant and it`s my PC so i don`t need to know. You have a deal than! Can than those files that remain on my pc and know nothing about remain there for tens of years? I would really really want that!

In no event shall SEGA be liable to you in connection with the components that may be installed on your device relating to the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology.

I was so so scared that SEGA will ever be liable for something, thank the Endless Universe they are not, now i can feel a lot better and my life is so much happy now. Also i`m glad that this statement is for sure, as the Denuvo one may be or may be not

You can find out about Denuvo’s privacy practices in its privacy policy: https://irdeto.com/privacy/

Oh boy, oh boy! So much good stuff! Why did you not put this first? i`m so eager to access that link maybe i can get more stuff on my pc for free that stays there forever.

Now all this aside does the EULA said it may or may not have Denuvo? Did it said the same on all OpenDevs and some had it, some not? Was it a Russian roulette? Was everything stated in a CLEAR way? as some countries have laws that require the user to be clearly informed before they agree

Just some things to ponder upon

Kutuzov wrote:
The one thing that really makes me doubt that it will be re-introduced is because the fall-out from doing so would be utterly catastrophic for them, suicidal in fact, and I can't believe they'd be that stupid. But stranger things have happened...

Pretty much where I end up on the logic here. Since Amplitude has never also made me think they are clinically insane or evil, perhaps a few bad patches here or there is all, I think it's safe to stretch the legs a bit and sip some lemonade on the beach. Life is purty good in my book right now in terms of Humankind worries outside of the likely bugs or technical issues they may need to fix the first month or so. Heck I never saw us able to test multiplayer so maybe that might be a bit flimsy at launch lol. If in the final closed beta you could test multiplayer I am unaware since I didn't partake in that one but I did partake in all the opendev, minus the Stadia one.

Well thanks @Sublustris for taking the time to detail how you would like the EULA to be and i agree your way of writing it would have been much better than how it is officially right now, as you gave the exact quote and it has none of your ideas in it.

Poor wording, but it meant there will be anti-tamper, and may be anti-cheat part.

It clearly stated that it may have both or not. Legally you agree to that. Your interpretation that "will be anti-tamper, and may be anti-cheat part" it`s clearly not stated in the EULA. Someone might as well say it means it does not have both anti-tamper or anti-cheat but those are just opinions and are not in the official EULA

Usually 5 times on different machines per day. That means re-installation on same machine doesn't count. That is, unless you also delete offline token, then it probably will.

That would be nice, but again the EULA does not say that so it can be as well 5 times per year or 3 times per lifetime or 2 times per hour.

They simply stated, that protection mechanism may change. It's all there is to say, really. They probably don't know themselves how can it be changed, should the necessity arise - before it arise.

I have no idea how you know this but again the EULA does not stated that, so everyone`s guess is as valid as yours. It just said "the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology may install on your device additional components required for copy protection;" that could be anything, do anything, gather any data, change in time in any way. It could be as well what you said but it could be as well anything else

Offline token, you've already been told multiple times.

I was told by @Kwami what he found out from his own experience. The EULA as you just quoted from it clearly does not states it is "just an offline token" so it could be just that or that and other stuff or just other stuff that we have no clue about. It can even change in time without our further knowledge

Just legal department doing their job.

Interesting how the legal department does not say Amplitude also is not liable as they don`t make Denuvo themselves. This means what you said previously that Denuvo is a different package than the game would mean that Amplitude also is not liable but they don`t say it, interesting right?

So the EULA does not states that for further details our legal representative @Sublustris will give you all our official detail so contact him. This means we agree only to what is stated in the EULA and NOTHIG ELSE. Of course everyone can guess based on their experience with other games or what they read in the media that happened in other cases but in this specific case the only LEGAL value is just what is written in the EULA and nothing else. This is pretty basic stuff

I also agree to @AOM that they should have clearly stated to us if OpenDevs have or not Denuvo as that is an element of novelty for them that is also made by another separate company. And yes, how many times the beta was downloaded, how many users participated, how many times the game is favorited or pre-purchased on Steam or other platforms are metrics that they can use to tell Sega and others that all is going well and those can help push further financing for them if those metrics are high. But still, i hope for more transparency and a beforehand notice next time for this kind of issues or other important novelty issues that may arise