In the first games I played, it was unclear that there was anything peaceful I could do with them. So I basically confronted every independent people by conquering them.

In later games, I realized that I could spend money/culture to bring them into patronage. I did *not* understand the various civic affinity sliders -- it just seemed like always, the independent peoples were very different from my own culture.

I ended up assimilating all independent people once I realized I could get them to 100 in patronage. If there was supposed to be another steady state beyond conquering vs buying them out, it was not apparent to me during gameplay.

It has been like a rollocoaster ride with the Independent People - in first OpenDev, there was not enough of them, in the second one, they were everywhere in a no time, and now... they are again rather on the low point. I have several thoughts whirling in my head, some of them echoing sentiments brought up here before.

1. There could be more Independent People and they could come earlier.

2. IPs could be rather stronger, to make for more interesting gameplay - as it stands now, it is rather easy to prevent them ever settling and bullying them, their Cities are easily conquered with minimal amount of units and without the repercussions.

3. Becoming Patron seems bit like a chore and lacks the funny and interesting elements that other parts of the game sport - clicking on the button for Influence/Money repeatedly was really tedious, also does not really have the feel of becoming someone's Patron. In comparison to ES2, where interacting with Minor Factions felt really flavorful, engaging and rewarding. There could be more interaction between Patron and Independent People besides the option to assimilate them - also dumping loads of Money/Influence on IP one turn and Assimilating them on the next turn feels really anticlimatic and unrealistic - if there was a period of several turns that such city is Patronized but unable to assimilate (like 5-10 turns) and then there was a pop-up "Assimilation possible", that would give more time for other players to join the tug of war over independet cities.

4. One of the ways to make Patron benefit from their IP under patronage would be to give the Patron some benefit - like minivassalization - that would be worth having them in the form of IPs, not Assimilating them on the first chance - what comes to mind is giving bonus to FIMS, or only Food/Money, getting access to their Luxuries and Stretegics or counting their Territories as "Owned" for the purpose of Expansionist's Era Star.

5. If long-term Patronization would be a thing, after spending whole Era under Patronage, there could be pop-up that the IPs grew so close to you, that you could instantly Assimilate them without the cost (that could have higher base values); this could be refuse, but than IPs would go into decline and dissapear next era, like they do now (I believe - there was no IPs alive long enough for me to experience this).

6. I agree that IPs could have more flavour identity, than they have right now. Without the need to go for unique Units or other stuff, each IPs could have one of several identities based on some circumstances (currently, they are either Hostile or Peaceful, making them more or less likely to attack you on sight). There could be for example "Warriors", "Pastoralists", "Traders" and "Worshipers" - each with bit of unique twist on the interaction with Players and with Era appropriate generic Art for their representation (to give them more flavour and enhance immersion - with 4 types in six eras, 24 small new arts could be mannagable, and could have differently looking City Centers).

6a) Warriors - would represent "Barbarians", "Sea People", "Hordes", later on "Rebels" or even "Terrorists" - they would spawn in territories with Strategics and would be highly agressive, would attack on sight, seek Players, pillage their countryside, spam units and mainly in early game provide pressure on player so they can not just ignore defenses. They would have fortified city, maybe with several Garrisons in territory, making them difficult to conquer and rather difficult to assimilate and probably provide only small bonus if Patronized - something like 5 % reduction to Unit production comes to mind. Once Patronized, they could also be much cheaper to buy as Mercenaries.

6b) Pastoralists - would represent prototypical peaceful tribes and peoples of various eras, they would expand their city a bit and only fight in defense, but their population would rise steadily. They would be easily Patronized and once done, they could provide Food to Capital or simply give Population to nearby City of Patron every couple of turns in addition to normal Population growth.

6c) Traders - would represent small trade partners - like many Mediterrainian City States, Hanseatic League, Native Traders of Americas and Africa - they would spawn only in territories with Luxuries and once under Patronage would give Patron access to their Luxuries and/or small Money income; they would be easier to Assimilate with Money, than with Influence.

6d) Worshipers - would represent famous Religious and Cultural places that are not playable right now - Israelites, Tibeteans, Norte Chico etc. - they could have own Holy Site, that - once Assimilated or Patronized, could count as Players Holy Site - considering they share Player's Religion. They would be easier to Assimilate with Influence and could be done only if they share Religion (or might not be necessary, as they could adopt state Religion upon Patronization/Assimilation).

So these are some things I had on my mind since the second OpenDev - some of them being rather bigger changes to how IPs work right now and would be probably out of scope for the game's release, but maybe they come handy as an inspiration for some stray Dev that stumbles on them in future.

Thanks for the amazing time spent with the game (playing or discussing it with other fans) so far, cheers!

Independent People need a few flavour changes and a few mechanical changes, the base is there but needs a lot of tuning.

Some unique colours would be great instead of the same grey everywhere, also perhaps a randomized religion instead of it all being the same generic one

That's all for flavour, mechanically independents exist purely as extra cities and nothing more, you dump money and influence into them for a city and not much else. Taking over them should be harder, both from a military and conversion perspective, while actions like trading should be much easier so that empires have an opportunity to interact with them before they get eaten. They have lifespans of upwards of 50 turns but are eaten in 9, and I haven't seen a single one last long enough to be able to offer goods which should be one of the main interactions with them, trade. They also only seem to spawn civilian units so buying them as mercenaries is out of the picture, but this problem is easier to fix by giving them the same unit pools as players, and thus would make mercenaries worth it.

The act of converting them is also rather dull, just clicking a button over and over, it'd be fine if that was the alternate method and instead tolerance/compatibility was the primary method of conversion, where you have to either change your ideals to suit the independents or the other way around in order to convert them.

Overall a lot of potential but they get eaten up too easily before that potential is realized

oggysu wrote:

6. I agree that IPs could have more flavour identity, than they have right now. Without the need to go for unique Units or other stuff, each IPs could have one of several identities based on some circumstances (currently, they are either Hostile or Peaceful, making them more or less likely to attack you on sight). There could be for example "Warriors", "Pastoralists", "Traders" and "Worshipers" - each with bit of unique twist on the interaction with Players and with Era appropriate generic Art for their representation (to give them more flavour and enhance immersion - with 4 types in six eras, 24 small new arts could be mannagable, and could have differently looking City Centers).

6a) Warriors - would represent "Barbarians", "Sea People", "Hordes", later on "Rebels" or even "Terrorists" - they would spawn in territories with Strategics and would be highly agressive, would attack on sight, seek Players, pillage their countryside, spam units and mainly in early game provide pressure on player so they can not just ignore defenses. They would have fortified city, maybe with several Garrisons in territory, making them difficult to conquer and rather difficult to assimilate and probably provide only small bonus if Patronized - something like 5 % reduction to Unit production comes to mind. Once Patronized, they could also be much cheaper to buy as Mercenaries.

6b) Pastoralists - would represent prototypical peaceful tribes and peoples of various eras, they would expand their city a bit and only fight in defense, but their population would rise steadily. They would be easily Patronized and once done, they could provide Food to Capital or simply give Population to nearby City of Patron every couple of turns in addition to normal Population growth.

6c) Traders - would represent small trade partners - like many Mediterrainian City States, Hanseatic League, Native Traders of Americas and Africa - they would spawn only in territories with Luxuries and once under Patronage would give Patron access to their Luxuries and/or small Money income; they would be easier to Assimilate with Money, than with Influence.

6d) Worshipers - would represent famous Religious and Cultural places that are not playable right now - Israelites, Tibeteans, Norte Chico etc. - they could have own Holy Site, that - once Assimilated or Patronized, could count as Players Holy Site - considering they share Player's Religion. They would be easier to Assimilate with Influence and could be done only if they share Religion (or might not be necessary, as they could adopt state Religion upon Patronization/Assimilation).

If something like what you're describing here isn't implemented in the full game, I will be instantly downloading the first mod that does do something like this! I really feel like this is the answer to what IP can and should be.

They need to 

1. give special bonuses to your empire when you are their patron (give IPs an affinity, and that affinity determines the bonus they give)

2. give a different bonus in their city when you assimilate them (probably based on their affinity)

3. As a patron be able to prevent other patrons from assimilating them

4. be harder to attack, and be able to be liberated by a previous patron. 

oggysu wrote:

It has been like a rollocoaster ride with the Independent People - in first OpenDev, there was not enough of them, in the second one, they were everywhere in a no time, and now... they are again rather on the low point. I have several thoughts whirling in my head, some of them echoing sentiments brought up here before.

1. There could be more Independent People and they could come earlier.

2. IPs could be rather stronger, to make for more interesting gameplay - as it stands now, it is rather easy to prevent them ever settling and bullying them, their Cities are easily conquered with minimal amount of units and without the repercussions.

3. Becoming Patron seems bit like a chore and lacks the funny and interesting elements that other parts of the game sport - clicking on the button for Influence/Money repeatedly was really tedious, also does not really have the feel of becoming someone's Patron. In comparison to ES2, where interacting with Minor Factions felt really flavorful, engaging and rewarding. There could be more interaction between Patron and Independent People besides the option to assimilate them - also dumping loads of Money/Influence on IP one turn and Assimilating them on the next turn feels really anticlimatic and unrealistic - if there was a period of several turns that such city is Patronized but unable to assimilate (like 5-10 turns) and then there was a pop-up "Assimilation possible", that would give more time for other players to join the tug of war over independet cities.

4. One of the ways to make Patron benefit from their IP under patronage would be to give the Patron some benefit - like minivassalization - that would be worth having them in the form of IPs, not Assimilating them on the first chance - what comes to mind is giving bonus to FIMS, or only Food/Money, getting access to their Luxuries and Stretegics or counting their Territories as "Owned" for the purpose of Expansionist's Era Star.

5. If long-term Patronization would be a thing, after spending whole Era under Patronage, there could be pop-up that the IPs grew so close to you, that you could instantly Assimilate them without the cost (that could have higher base values); this could be refuse, but than IPs would go into decline and dissapear next era, like they do now (I believe - there was no IPs alive long enough for me to experience this).

6. I agree that IPs could have more flavour identity, than they have right now. Without the need to go for unique Units or other stuff, each IPs could have one of several identities based on some circumstances (currently, they are either Hostile or Peaceful, making them more or less likely to attack you on sight). There could be for example "Warriors", "Pastoralists", "Traders" and "Worshipers" - each with bit of unique twist on the interaction with Players and with Era appropriate generic Art for their representation (to give them more flavour and enhance immersion - with 4 types in six eras, 24 small new arts could be mannagable, and could have differently looking City Centers).

6a) Warriors - would represent "Barbarians", "Sea People", "Hordes", later on "Rebels" or even "Terrorists" - they would spawn in territories with Strategics and would be highly agressive, would attack on sight, seek Players, pillage their countryside, spam units and mainly in early game provide pressure on player so they can not just ignore defenses. They would have fortified city, maybe with several Garrisons in territory, making them difficult to conquer and rather difficult to assimilate and probably provide only small bonus if Patronized - something like 5 % reduction to Unit production comes to mind. Once Patronized, they could also be much cheaper to buy as Mercenaries.

6b) Pastoralists - would represent prototypical peaceful tribes and peoples of various eras, they would expand their city a bit and only fight in defense, but their population would rise steadily. They would be easily Patronized and once done, they could provide Food to Capital or simply give Population to nearby City of Patron every couple of turns in addition to normal Population growth.

6c) Traders - would represent small trade partners - like many Mediterrainian City States, Hanseatic League, Native Traders of Americas and Africa - they would spawn only in territories with Luxuries and once under Patronage would give Patron access to their Luxuries and/or small Money income; they would be easier to Assimilate with Money, than with Influence.

6d) Worshipers - would represent famous Religious and Cultural places that are not playable right now - Israelites, Tibeteans, Norte Chico etc. - they could have own Holy Site, that - once Assimilated or Patronized, could count as Players Holy Site - considering they share Player's Religion. They would be easier to Assimilate with Influence and could be done only if they share Religion (or might not be necessary, as they could adopt state Religion upon Patronization/Assimilation).

So these are some things I had on my mind since the second OpenDev - some of them being rather bigger changes to how IPs work right now and would be probably out of scope for the game's release, but maybe they come handy as an inspiration for some stray Dev that stumbles on them in future.

Thanks for the amazing time spent with the game (playing or discussing it with other fans) so far, cheers!

Love these ideas -- keeps them from being so generic.

As even when patronized thay coudn't offer much (no available resources), I mainly influenced/bought them into my Empire to set foot on the second continent.

Waper wrote:

Another idea is these people can give out quests/missions to players/AIs to complete for rewards where some of which can be small amount of fame points. Completing them may give one time positive bonus relationship pts. It is up to devs to decide if they want to include these in the game and how often they can be. If included, please do not make it too often. Once in a while should be fine.

This could make the game a little more interesting as another source of fame pts.

Mechanically, that's a pretty great idea, but thematically, it doesn't make much sense for empires to gain fame by obeying random small nations.