reich238 wrote:

As discussed elsewhere, it seems too easy to assimilate them. For me, different tenants focussed on influence or money often result in plenty of either or. And then it feels the ideological differences do not really matter much more. Perhaps some of the IP should resist pure cash or blue jeans for a bit longer.

I agree, I was able to easily assimilate them whenever I wanted. Maybe the actual assimilation could take a few turns instead of being instant, and have those turns also be based on your ideological distance? For example, if you're totally opposed to an IP on both axes, it might take you a base of 3 turns plus 5 turns per axis to assimilate, for a total of 13 turns. If someone else assimilates them before you can, you could get a partial refund. This could also encourage selecting the IPs you try to become close to more carefully.

You might want to block assimilating independent districts that you haven't invested in yet.
Just ran into a district that happened to be in decline, that no one invested in and that I could instantly assimilate.

Also, this might be tied to tweaking the general amount of influence points you are able to receive.
I just assimilated four independent districts in a single turn (turn 90) which seems a bit excessive...

One of the strange things I came along was that I was patron of IP and they were in decline, but I could not annex them, whereas the AI could. They didn't have any special legacy trait to it, so it cannot be that. Is that a thing that as a patron you cannot, but as a player with absolutely no influence over them you can? The same happened in reverse to me where the AI had patron status over three IP and I only got to know them by some chance to quickly assimilate all as they were in decline. Is this how the game mechanic is supposed to work? 

reich238 wrote:

One of the strange things I came along was that I was patron of IP and they were in decline, but I could not annex them, whereas the AI could. They didn't have any special legacy trait to it, so it cannot be that. Is that a thing that as a patron you cannot, but as a player with absolutely no influence over them you can? The same happened in reverse to me where the AI had patron status over three IP and I only got to know them by some chance to quickly assimilate all as they were in decline. Is this how the game mechanic is supposed to work? 

Hm, there seems to be some issue/bug with assimilating in zenith/decline situations 

Is it weird that I almost completely forgot they existed in both my games so far?

I had a long war with an opponent, and some of their conquered cities rebelled against me, becoming independent. I re-conquered them and now they were no longer considered occupied but rather my own, and the people were no longer dissatisfied at all.

It would make sense for occupied cities that rebel to revert back to their initial owner than becoming independent.

An improvement over the Lucy Opendev, the slower pace of the game leaves a bit more time to interact, trade and fight with independent factions. The snowballing issues do mean that eventually they're just another city to be absorbed in one turn but I found that point happens a little later. Honestly I don't think the option of instantly absorbing them once they start to decline helps this problem out, especially since you don't even need a good relationship to convert them this way. Perhaps scaling the new cities with the current era might be the correct solution, since for the early and most of the mid game independents fulfill their roll well before once again becoming comically easy to absorb.

Clearly improved over last open beta

Please loose the pacifist icon and use the horned helmet instead

Shield shoul be showing the ownership of the city but in this case it shows attitude and a very modern and unfitting one.

Barbarians and wild animals are not pacifist as shown when being poked with sticks :)

As for roaming animals suggest ot use the excellent pawn symbol isntead - again no need and out of place pacifist symbol

If the sore thing here is that agressivity level needs to be shown, then simply smack some arrows on the lower left corner or an olive branch for peacefull

Note: Olive branch is far older iconography, stands for peace not pacifism which is fitting as being generalyl peacefull doesnt mean the subject will not tear the attacker a new one if provoked :)

I noticed like others that assimilation seems too easy. perhaps by putting as a condition cultural domination and/or by putting a cost variable depending on the distance to the borders? I've seen the AI assimilate a city on another continent, on the border of another AI... the kind of thing that drives you crazy if it happens to you.

Ok, so here we are with plenty of new Victor feedback. I'd like to first say that HK is surely shaping up to be a fantastic game, and this OpenDev already shown a great deal of improvement over the Lucy build. I'll focus this report on the issues I found, but this by no way means HK isn't a good or fun game, just that I'm pointing to what can be made better before release. I'll also try to not discuss bugs like the various graphical glitches or the fact that many Early Modern Emblematic Quarters could be built in multiples per territory since by now I assume you're well aware of those. I'll try (key word here is try) to present suggestions to each issue, but of course, my knowledge of civics, technologies and cultures is limited by the scope of the opendevs revealed so far. So, without further ado, lets dive in:

- Independent Peoples

- Issue: While the IPs were in a much better state than in Lucy, they felt they had problems on patronizing. First, if you didn't wanted to wait until your influence passively made you the IP's patron, you had to click on a button to spend money or influence so many times you could develop carpal tunnel syndrome. Second, when you did patronize them, it had almost no effect save for letting you assimilate them. Solution:  Make the player able to spend gold or influence spending on IPs in batches, maybe with a slider or a special command (like using shift+click to "click" 10 times). Also, give more bonuses for being the patron of an IP, like gaining one or two extra luxuries, so you'll be more incentivized to stay as the IP's patron.

- Issue: After you managed to patronize an IP, you would need to spend 200 influence to Assimilate it and gain a new city. This did not scaled with the number of your cities, so it was both too expensive (at the early game) and too cheap (at the mid/late game). Solution:  Make the assimilation cost scale with the number of your cities, preferably mantaining it at the influence cost of a new city minus a fixed % discount - I suggest a 25% discount, to account the added hassle of having to patronize the IP first.

- Issue: Even easier and cheaper to gain new cities was to simply invade them. This is the strongest option of all since it costs no influence at all, requires no additional hassle to patronize, and nets you extra units killed (for militarist stars), so the IPs in Victor just became conquest targets. Solution:  Make all IP cities captured revert back to unattached outposts under your control. This would represent your empire razing the conquered city, and would let you build a city on it (for normal costs) and/or attach it to your other cities as usual. As an added bonus, this would create an emergent route to raze your own cities - liberate then conquer them. This "liberation-conquest" route would elegantly simulate the resistance the citizens' resistance to you razing their hometown.

This is a post in a series of connected posts about the Victor Opendev. You can find the posts discussing other topics below:

Economy: https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/humankind/forums/210-victor-opendev/threads/39499-feedback-economy-and-game-pace?page=3#post-315472

Naval & Air: https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/humankind/forums/210-victor-opendev/threads/39509-feedback-naval-gameplay?page=1#post-315474

Religion: https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/humankind/forums/210-victor-opendev/threads/39525-feedback-religion?page=2#post-315475

Diplomacy: https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/humankind/forums/210-victor-opendev/threads/39502-feedback-diplomacy?page=2#post-315476

Combat & Land Armies: https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/humankind/forums/210-victor-opendev/threads/39501-feedback-combat?page=2#post-315477

Civics: https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/humankind/forums/210-victor-opendev/threads/39508-feedback-civics?page=1#post-315478

Cultures: https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/humankind/forums/210-victor-opendev/threads/39500-feedback-cultures?page=2#post-315479

Didnt see the optin to hire armies: nor for neutral nor for agressiv independents

It should be available on their actual armies that roam around, iirc you can pay to hire them for 20 turns.

I have two problems with the neutrals right now:

- You get no notifications about status changes, for example when your patronage meter hits 100.

- They all kinda feel the same. Civ 6 has a very elegant way to make its city states special and useful, and even the Endless games had more flavour in their neutrals than Humankind.

Way to easy to assimilate. The cost is essentially nothing, they are basically a free city. This feature needs a complete redo; not to compare to Civ again but a mechanic where you have actual meaningful interactions would be way better, like with City States. There also needs to be a downside to assimilation other than taking up the extra city slot - either that, or have certain civics or civilizations get bonuses for leaving them alive. 

You could have bonuses given by civs/civics/religions like military strength bonus vs. independent states, or some trade mechanic, or a bonus to cities for having independent states on their borders.

Either that, or make it so the independent states don't take up an entire province but instead live within provinces you own early in the game, as the provinces are easily big enough to accommodate that early on. Then players could make the choice to leave them there as a minority group in their nation and get bonuses/maluses from that, to destroy them (at cost of a grievance or some other negative), or to slowly assimilate them over time. 

I like this idea a lot. Have each IP, once assimilated/conquered, turn into a special district in that territory -  the IP's "Emblematic Quarter" of sorts. Maybe a EQ design for peaceful IPs and another for Agressive IPs? I think it would be better if there were a dozen or so "special IP EQs" and they varied from game to game, but I feel like it would be to late for that pre-launch.  

IP's new cities are too easy to capture. It is a clear abuse that must be fixed. When their outpost becames a city they have 0 population and don't have militia, so you can get this city for free just with 1 scout literally. You just need to wait for their army moves too far from city, that's all.

In other aspects they are pretty good in my opinion.

I barely noticed them, having two independent groups in my first run and one in my second.  In the first run, I found them both on an island after nearly circling the globe, and immediately paid tons of money to assimilate them.  On my second run, I found one nearby my starting position and ended up attacking them to conquer the space.  All in all, they felt pretty rare and mostly useless.  They may need some tweaking in terms of strength to discourage larger empires from immediately overrunning them.  I like the idea of independent people, but in the end they were a very minor nuisance/opportunity (depending on where I found them).

Overall I like how the IP work in the game.

- I only used the assimilation mechanic though and I think it was way too easy.

- I think cultural and religious domination should matter more. If another culture dominates the IP I should get penalties for assimilation and vice versa. Same with religion

- The steps in between 0 and 100 Percent assimilation should be clear: I tried to levy armies of IP (just for fun) and didn't manage to do so. Maybe trade options etc.

- The cultural difference didn't seem to matter at all. This should be much more of a factor.

I'd like to see more independent people, and their military power should be equal to major factions. They will disappear anyway, either passively or through absorption, so better to make them count. They also serve as great buffer between major factions and give better reason to pick military affinity cultures.

A more complete feedback from my end after two playthroughs (one on hard, one on very hard). An avid CIV player, I cannot not benchmark Humankind against it.

Overall

1. I much prefer independent peoples to CIV's city states and barbarians. Even after CIV VI's latest free content update, Humankind succeeds in making IP feel like an integral gameplay element.
2. the different personality types are great (passive, aggressive, ...).
3. I like how IP start out with outposts just like NPCs do.
4. dumping money or influence into IP in order to get them to your side feels too easy. Cultural traits are mentioned and displayed but not as impactful as assumed at first glance.
5. greatly enjoyed how IP entanglement played into diplomacy as well.
6. I like how you can't just buy any which unit you fancy (some are locked to IP defence, which makes sense).
7. not sure if I'm a fan of the whole "in decline" mechanic. Feels out of place. In board game terms: it's like SmallWorld, but you would not choose a new race after the old one went into decline.

Feedback

1. much like in CIV, IP are too easily overrun by force. Consider buffing the upgrade time from outpost to city, and from city to walled city.
2. IP unit spawn rate seems too low, aggravating the above issue.
3. allied IP should join in on wars with common enemies.
4. IP should trade with you, which should improve the relationship ticker as well.

Ok first I need to mention I barely interacted at all with IP, because the free territories really did not stay free for a very long time. I bought an IP city once though, because they were in my extension way. I felt that:

1) There are not enough incentives to strengthen your relations with them: maybe make gaining influence over them slower (maybe make influence over them decrease if you do not interact enough with them?), but with bigger rewards?

2) Being able to assimilate them at any time made them really something I could just ignore. I assume that the zenith mechanic is not working as intended and that they are supposed to be assimilable only when in decline. At least that way they would be more fun and more difficult to just buy and forget.

3) I think they should remain pretty weak to military invasions, but protected by soft power, like if conquering them gave grievances for empires with some quantity of influence over them, has a stability hit over your population if you have the same ideology as the IP, or lose a lot of influence over other IP that had similar ideologies (even make pacific ones agressive?)

I don't know which of these solutions are or are not in the game, but I wanted to share what I though when reading this thread.

• I am glad to see that Independent Peoples are building more armies and more districts in their territories, though they could still do more on either end. I am also glad they weren't a flash in the pan and stuck around for a bit!

• Except for in one instance, throughout my several playthroughs in Victor, even the Hostile IPs rarely bothered me, which is unfortunate, because I feel like the role of the Hostile IPs, especially during the early game, should be to attack isolated armies that they can defeat and ransack unprotected districts and the like. I know this isn't for everyone, so maybe     aggressive IPs should be a slider before starting a new campaign. That said, in one instance when I was on the “unclaimed” continent, I had a few good battles against the Bretons, who were at a nearly comparable tech level with me and were starting to muster their forces in the direction of my new city. It was fun, because what I thought was going just to be three knights roaming the continent and claiming territories turned into me needing to regroup, hire an army from the city I had founded there, and then engaging in a series of battles with them before I took their city. It was definitely what I want to see more of when fighting Independent Peopes.

• I did end up hiring mercenaries from an IP once, but it was just two units that were behind in the tech tree a bit. They weren't useless, but not too impactful either, and that could be improved on. Perhaps one thing that could be done is allowing us to merge mercenary units if they come from the same IP. As far as them being behind on the tech tree though, that could be improved on with the era pacing slowed down a bit.    

• I still wish there were more diplomacy options with IP. Having the option to vassalize them after conquering their city could be cool, as well as having all the trade options and the like that you can negotiate with fully fledged empires. I also still want there to be some counterplay options to a rival empire attempting to assimilate an IP that you have an equal level of patronage over (especially if you want to make use of the Mauryan's LT!), such as a three-turn delay on assimilating IPs with other patrons, during which time the other patron can spend influence to assimilate them instead or support their independence, and it could go back and forth as a test of who wants it more. There should also be a limit on the number of times you can praise or bribe an IP per turn, so that you can't pump up your relations with them too high too quickly.

• I also wish they had more personality than simply being hostile or peaceful. Back in the Lucy OpenDev I remember seeing some suggestions that they could spawn as Warriors, Pastoralists, Merchants, or whatnot with certain cultures only spawning in areas with horses and then favoring sending out as many horsemen as they can, or some favoring the coast and building fleets to ransack and harass you. Just a little something to add some personality to each IP could go a long way.

IP (Independent Peoples) ares better now

However I think it could be interesting to have them producing their own influence, its weird to see some decent cities being converted so easily. It doesnt have to expand beyogn their borders  but having their own defensive influene would make it not a free convert

Also my opinion from them had +3 every turn but it didnt tell me why, I'm assuming because hey were under my influence

IP were still hard to differentiate, if they could get their own color (or shades at least) it would be easier than clicking on each army to find their city

Itcould be interesting to have more interaction, such as getting a tribute from IP instead of annexing them, as annexing them might get you over city cap and be better to be under your influence more indirectly. Maybe also allowing to prevent them to be annexed by others if I don't want to annex them but keep them as buffer territory

I like how IP (Independent People) work in Victor overall. At least, Devs got most of core mechanics down. However, there are a couple of things that can be improved further.

1. Give players ability to permanently make IP vassals of their Empires - Sometimes, we do not want them to slowly fade away especially when we liberate them from our own Empire lands. There should also be an option to FREE those IP from vassalisation too, if we wish to see them gone.

2. Make Trade UI with IP more obvious - Transparent UI is good, but I did have a hard time trying to identify where trade menu of IP was.

3. Make IP units that wander around the map to be slightly more in variety - Out of many games, I saw Chariots and Archer group a lot. I did see mercenary group few times (2 Spearmen & 2 Archers group) too, but more frequent variation would be welcome. Also, it would be good if they do upgrade their units over time too to keep up with Era progression.

4. More Varitety of IPs on top of Peaceful & Violent - You got the basics of IP archetypes down. I know some people wish for more variety of IP. I also do too, but these sort of additions could be done later down the line maybe after launch date. But please do consider making them to have more variety and bonus effects like how we have 7 theme of cultures.

5. Razing IP Cities Decision upon Capturing - There are times when players do not wish to keep IP cities in certain location. So please add the option to instantly raze those cities after capture or make it only 1 turn to raze them. I know we can ransack our own cities in game too, but this standard method takes way too long.

What about their cities spawning with 0 population making them free cities to capture? I'm always thinking about taking those free cities or not because it feels like cheating. How about letting these citites spawn with 1 or 2 pop so it is not a free take with just a scout. Make us bring some troops.

It says "In Decline" (they should disappear within 10 rounds) at the hoards of rebels attacking me from neighboring kingdoms but they never disappear.