When first playing DotE I used to build major modules whenever I had the Dust and Industry required. After dying a few times I realize this is not almost a smart idea.



One concern is whether you are able to defend the major module. But also: a module can easily cost 20+ Industry, but only 4 Industry/door (is this correct?). If only 3 doors remain you're better off saving up. However there is no way of knowing how many doors remain. It seems to increase as the level gets higher, is this correct?



It would be nice if the game provides more data on how much FIDS a module will add. Actually, as a general suggestion the game needs to provide the player with more data and breakdowns:

- how much Wit do you need to increase +1 FIDS/door from operating modules?

- how much of the FIDS/door comes from where? Heroes? Modules? Crystal? A mouseover breakdown like in Endless Space would be nice.

- how many doors are left in this level? (Although I can understand keeping it a secret, but maybe this can be offset by other indicators, such as a calculation shown when building a module on how many doors you would need to open to break even.)

As far as I know, a Hero's Wit stat is what increases a Module's result. Meaning, the higher the Wit, the more you produce, for example, Opbot has a high Wit, so if it is operating a module, then you will obtain more resources from it. Personally, I usually start with a large module, usually a Food Generator to level up my characters early on, then surround that module with 2 or 3 turrets to secure it, and just in case, leave a hero who can operate the Large module in that room, the other Hero will go and scout ahead and get dust, and resources. And well, I like that the game doesn't tell you how many doors are in the level, but, it would be neat if there was an item that could direct you to the exit, a compass perhaps?

As far as I know, a Hero's Wit stat is what increases a Module's result. Meaning, the higher the Wit, the more you produce, for example, Opbot has a high Wit, so if it is operating a module, then you will obtain more resources from it.

I think Jedyte is well aware of that. He's just asking more information. We don't know exactly what is the calculation. So we can't make proper decisions.



I'm agree with him. For now, the game lacks of informations. About the number of doors, I can understand the wish to maintain some suspens about that, but an estimation would be good. And even with this information, we still don't know how much doors we will have to open before the exit.

Estimation? Why? It's a Rouge-like game, I mean, that is the point of the game, heck, it's been advertised that way for a reason. The idea of the player not knowing how many doors are in the level is just so the player keeps playing, keeps up with their strategies, and survives. And once the player survives, a feeling of completion is in place. If the game told you how many doors are in the level, or even an estimation would leave the player with a feeling of "Well I opened X so far, and usually on this level there are Y doors, I am almost done haha, I should just farm now".

If the game told you how many doors are in the level, or even an estimation would leave the player with a feeling of "Well I opened X so far, and usually on this level there are Y doors, I am almost done haha, I should just farm now".

First of all, you don't decide to farm or not by just seeing the left doors. If you're doing well (good defenses, how much rooms powered, plenty of resources, characters, items...), you continue, even if you opened 3, 8, or 13 doors. If you're not doing well, you don't take the risk and you leave. I never based that sort of decisions by the number of doors I already opened. That's not like if the last door should give you a special bonus. So I don't see why you would take that kind of decision (leave or stay) just by seeing the left doors unopened.



On the other hand, iff the game told me how many doors are in the level, or even an estimation would leave me more with a feeling of "Well, I can now take a decision (set-up a new module or not) with some information. Better that than just roll a dice and pray to have luck".



For the rogue-like argument, I can just say there is plenty of ways to make a game with random things withouth your game has to look like a poor Monopoly. And the randomization has to serve some goal, and not just to be here so we could say : it's a rogue-like. I don't agree with that kind of arguments. All gameplay mechanisms of the game are not random, 'cause the game would be no more interest otherwise. And the game is still a rogue-like. It's not a good reason to just say : "it's a rogue-like, so it's random".

Tiphereth wrote:
I think Jedyte is well aware of that. He's just asking more information. We don't know exactly what is the calculation. So we can't make proper decisions.

We don't? Isn't it Wit / 4 rounded to the nearest integer with a floor of 1? I recall arriving at that conclusion basically the first time I picked up a wit item and played around with it for a few minutes. Maybe it was just a hasty assumption though?

Tiphereth wrote:
First of all, you don't decide to farm or not by just seeing the left doors. If you're doing well (good defenses, how much rooms powered, plenty of resources, characters, items...), you continue, even if you opened 3, 8, or 13 doors. If you're not doing well, you don't take the risk and you leave. I never based that sort of decisions by the number of doors I already opened. That's not like if the last door should give you a special bonus. So I don't see why you would take that kind of decision (leave or stay) just by seeing the left doors unopened.



On the other hand, iff the game told me how many doors are in the level, or even an estimation would leave me more with a feeling of "Well, I can now take a decision (set-up a new module or not) with some information. Better that than just roll a dice and pray to have luck".



For the rogue-like argument, I can just say there is plenty of ways to make a game with random things withouth your game has to look like a poor Monopoly. And the randomization has to serve some goal, and not just to be here so we could say : it's a rogue-like. I don't agree with that kind of arguments. All gameplay mechanisms of the game are not random, 'cause the game would be no more interest otherwise. And the game is still a rogue-like. It's not a good reason to just say : "it's a rogue-like, so it's random".

Hmm good points, well, look at it this way, what are rouge-like game players usually relying on? Luck. Not knowing what's next is an element that rouge-like games have best express. Spelunky, Risk of Rain, The Binding of Issac, and Legend of Dungeon, among many other Rouge-like games have some luck into them, either that luck being based on items, characters, levels or creature spawns. Luck is just one element that plays well into Dungeon of The Endless, and with that luck comes adaptation for each and every situation. I just feel as if knowing what can happen in said level, would give the player more chances to exploit the system. Not saying EVERYONE will exploit them.

We don't? Isn't it Wit / 4 rounded to the nearest integer with a floor of 1? I recall arriving at that conclusion basically the first time I picked up a wit item and played around with it for a few minutes. Maybe it was just a hasty assumption though?

Mmhh, maybe, but I would like to have the information, somewhere in the game, just to be sure of what I’m doing. : )

Actually, the game lack of some informations, like DPS of the turrets, efficiency of defense, skills bonus for level-up (we can see the stats, which is good, but it’s far less important than the skills I think)… These kind of information could be known by experience, but it would be just more easy to give them to the player. I don't like games where I spend more time on Wikis than on the game (it's not true, I love you Dark Souls, but don't say it too loud okay??).



DaveyAlcala@live.com : I’m not against luck. And yes, it’s all part of rogue-like games. But I think the purpose for luck is just to create an infinity of situation to play. It’s a hard type of games, you die a lot, and you begin again and again. So the randomization gives the game enough replay-value to support that. But I’m not agree with rogue-like games where luck is so huge that a game can be win or lost just because of that. The random has to be here to challenge the adaptability of the player, and not just to smash him with not a chance to win. It would be just unfair and not “playful” (not sure I’m clear about that word).



Because of that kind of considerations, I’m always really suspicious with these games. FTL was for me a big disappointment, cause some unpredictable events are really deadly, and the game is full of random things who can decide of your success. On my first playthrough on the normal difficulty, I was able to go in the sector six. It was my first playthrough, I didn’t know anything about the game. That should never have happened. And on my second playthrough, I died on the sector 2, and the third time on the sector 4. It was a huge lottery. It was not the same thing with Spelunky. This game is sooo hard, but, well, it's fair in his random mechanisms. Cause the luck just don't take precedence over the skill of the player.



To be back on the doors subject, it's not like that of course. It's not such a big thing that the game would be broken without the information. But, I don't think either it would be broken with it. : )

Actually the amount of doors varies in a slim window.



I've remembered the amount of doors before finding the exit on my last playthrough:

Level 1: 11

Level 2: 19

Level 3: 27

Level 4: 34



It should be roundabout this everytime and you can take it into consideration.

There also is a file for each level somewhere in the Game's public-folder. It also contains these kind of information. (Min-doors, Max-doors and how high the chance of spawning the exit is depending on the amount of opened doors)



Also I almost never build generator-modules in rooms that have more than one possible entrypoint for monsters. The chance of losing them before they pay for themselves is just too big in this case.

It's better to have and stay at 2 save generators than having 5 but having to rebuild 3 of those every other turn.

I posted this in another thread, but I feel it applies to the conversation.

Some thoughts about the scaling costs of generators:



I wouldn't make it so that the costs of all modules raises by three each time. I think it should cost more for each of the modules. If I build three industry, my first food shouldn't cost 19--it should still cost 10.



I would also suggest to lower the total stacking cost of each new module to +2 instead of +3 if each modules price raises independently to the others. Right now, three modules costs 39 industry. Your third module will cost you twice as much as your first module. When you factor in the fact we might have to build science modules, that means to build four modules we're paying a total of 58 industry--meaning we spent effectively 14.5 industry per unit. We'd spend 15.8 for the next module, then 17.17 per module for the next.



Alternatively, just have the price of modules go up by +1 for each module built total. By the time we have one of each module type (assuming science is a module), we'll have spent an additional +9 industry--so three modules nearly for the price of four. The next module'll have made us spend a total of +13--which means to have four modules, we've spent enough for 1 and 1/3 another one. Then the next module will cost 1.6, then 1.9, then 2.1.



So by the 7th module built (meaning MAYBE 2 of each kind and then 1 more of another), we're spending 17 points to build the module--but we've spent 7*10+ (1+2+3+4+5+6+7) industry. That's 98 industry total on 7 modules, with only a +10-14ish depending on the wits to industry each time a door is opened if the player builds two industry modules right off the bat, and can devote one or more hero to working that module.

To be entirely honest, if you're building three industry modules first, you're setting yourself up to fail with the current increase of cost. As the waves get bigger and there are more of them, your heroes won't be able to survive without hiding. Even on Floor 4, it's relatively easy to survive with only 1 food and 1 industry module - assuming you know what you're doing.



I like the incremental cost system right now, but it probably would be better to have the different module types kept separate. I don't know if that's easy to do, though. Easier just to play smart; 1 industry & 1 food to get your base, then whatever your heart desires.



As for building modules, you usually make up the cost in 2 doors, with a bit left over. That only applies if you can keep them alive, though.