When I fast read your thread the first time the first time I add all the suggestion you say in one thinking and it seems crappy for me ... After I starting to answer I separate all the things and find that I agreed the point 5 and the point 6 to some expend.



If it isn't clear, I'll try to explain it in other way for the last point ... Map have some different trend, when you go in other floor you see other things ... And the fact (for example) a garden map could enhance your food production is a nice idea to develop, and maybe add some specific (Elite monster) or special monster (Boss) to it (like a giant plant piranha (plant who use fireball or their teeth in mario game) for the garden trend ...

But I don't like the idea map influence the monster type that appeared cause there aren't enough kind of monster at the moment to offer challenge.

It could suggest the creation of duplicate monster in the trend of all map, like plant golem/zombie golem/ .../ but aren't interesting if they all act the same way ...

Considering Hikensha has a higher Wit than Golgy I find her a more viable option to operate major modules.

In defender's quest (a tower defense everyone should have played ! One of the best TD with an interesting story), some monsters could attack the "towers" but they still advanced to the end. So some monsters could have such behaviour : they have an aura that deals X damage every Y seconds to anyon eon the sam eroom as them but they target the crystal, so they don't stop until the modules are destroyed.

Mysterarts wrote:
I didn't say that we will remove the behavior, but we have to improve it to avoid the current binary possibilities:

1- the mob destroys all the modules in a room then move on to another

2- the mob does no damage to the modules



We have several ideas like attacks of mob with damage area or mobs that just "scratch" the defense then move to another room...

If you have some suggestions to keep damaged modules and tower defense gameplay, don't hesitate to share them with us

I'm not sure whether it would be funny or awful to have a mob that always goes for the most damaged module within 2 rooms range and attacks that and only that. It might run back and forth, not doing much if anything, or it might prove totally devastating. The outcome would be very random, indeed, and not at all binary.

Ail wrote:
Wait, what? Weren't the zombies just changed to attack towers because many people felt there was a lack of monsters that did this?

It's not like they prioritize them over heros, so I don't feel it's an issue.

I agree. If nothing were to attack my defenses would feel that defenses, especially the claymore (still), would need to be re-balanced. Otherwise there really wouldn't be any reason for me to use anything but defenses in my minor slots.



Could the zombies be more dynamically balanced than a simple nerf/buff? I'm no expert on the newest patches, but I think there could be a tech or a minor module that increases minor modules damage resistance (if there isn't one already ). at any rate, imho, I would like to see a better fix for this issue than just nerfing or removing the zombie's ability.



Edit: ninjad

I didn't say that we will remove the behavior, but we have to improve it to avoid the current binary possibilities:

1- the mob destroys all the modules in a room then move on to another

2- the mob does no damage to the modules



We have several ideas like attacks of mob with damage area or mobs that just "scratch" the defense then move to another room...

If you have some suggestions to keep damaged modules and tower defense gameplay, don't hesitate to share them with us

Mysterarts wrote:
Yes, the zombies break the tower defense part of the game and we also need to fix that.

Wait, what? Weren't the zombies just changed to attack towers because many people felt there was a lack of monsters that did this?

It's not like they prioritize them over heros, so I don't feel it's an issue.

Hi,



Thanks for this feedback!

I agree with you, we should add more control to the randomness of the major slots and the targeting system is still a problem. Yes, the zombies break the tower defense part of the game and we also need to fix that.

Fabs wrote:
1. Map design: I know the maps are randomly generated, but the lack of slots for major modules is a killer, specially in the room next the starting point. I don't know how many times I played since the update - a lot! - but the chance of start with zero slots in all accesses is nearly 75% above level 3, not to mention that large spacing between the rooms with major slots is more common lately. It's not unusual to get a configuration in line like [Slot]-[Empty]-[Empty]-[Empty]-[Slot]. In my games, with 120, 150 of dust, I can get space for three modules, maybe four if I destroy the research crystal. Dunno about the rest of community, but thats what I'm getting lately.

I don't think this is a problem - sometimes you get unlucky, them's the breaks.

Fabs wrote:
2. Skroig: I voted for him, mostly because I liked his background story and his figure, in general, but so far I'm a bit disappointed with him. He seems to be an intermediary class that's not good in anything, like Deena and Hikensha (my least favorites, because they dont excel in nothing). We have operators (Opbot), fighters (Troe & Gork), and door-openers (Sara, Max and Golgy - who can double as operators). And we have Hikensha, Deena and Skroig, who don't have wit enough to be good operators, or need a huge investment in food to get the skill working, don't have speed enough to be door-openers, and don't have an impressive attack or defense to be fighters (Skroig being basically made of glass, and Hikensha a bit better if well equiped). Skroig needed a better role on this. IMHO, more heroes that dont excel in anyhting are a waste, just like items that give +1 Wit +2 Attack. Give us a +3 Attack, or a +3 Wit, or else they will serve only to be discarded or converted into dust in a Merchant.

I agree about Skroig... I can't see his viability. I love all operators, and I prefer my door openers to be hardy - my favourite openers are Hikensha and Troe, because they are medium quick, medium strong. No one else is. I love getting opbot at the start... he's like a free module everywhere (once you get him to level 2, which takes 1 or 2 rooms). I hate losing out on the FIDS with people who are operators opening doors... seems like a waste to me.

Fabs wrote:
3. Targeting: the mobs were improved, becoming deadlier, thats alright - but then, the targeting system for the heroes doesn't work anymore as it used to be before this patch. Its annoying when the heroes choose to attack the dust eater one (that shady walker that goes right to the power room), when theres a freaking CRYSTAL GOLEM attacking a module.

That's always been the case AFAIK... they prioritise the slow bugger who attacks nothing ;P

Fabs wrote:
Also, I noticed that the mobs seem to be targeting a single hero at the time, just as if he was wearing the scarf or the ahrmanni suit - sometimes the hero has 80% of his life then in a single round it dies from attacks from two golems, three fliers and three zombies at the same time. Doesn't seem the heroes do the same, or if they do the same, they focus in the less threatening enemies at the time. The targeting behavior should be appropriate to the room: if there's module in the room, or research crystal, the target should be the mobs attacking it, if there's no major modules but minor modules, the target should be the zombies or the flying squares, if its the core room, the target should prioritize the dust eaters.

I don't think targeting should be player controlled... It'd add unnecessary complexity to the game.

Fabs wrote:
4. (This one can be my fault, I don't know) Gameplay complain: zombies destroying minor modules break the 'tower' defense part of the game. Basically there's no point on create defensive corridors for the mobs if the first wave steamrolls it - its just a waste of industry. The only rooms where the defense isnt wasted at the first try are the long rooms, corridors with at least 5 slots, where we can put 2 slowing modules in the near entrance and 3 claymores after them. Zombie's damage is too high, or too fast. IMHO, it needs a rebalance. But to be completely honest, I prefered the way it was before, where after lever 3 the mobs became stronger but couldn't destroy the modules - it tended to make the thinking a bit of more strategic.

I don't think plonking a long line of minor modules for mobs to wander past and get shot to bits is strategic. My last game I had a bottleneck for zombies in a room with 4 modules with about 10-15 unlit rooms behind it, and they managed to take out one of my heavy defences... I just plonked a little defence in its place. They took it out a few times more, but at only 3 industry a time, it's inconsequential. I very rarely put unmanned defences in a room with 3 modules or less, it's not worth it, because, as you say, they will get taken out. The strategy is finding and using those high module rooms, at any cost, and sticking everything else behind it.

Fabs wrote:
5. Lenght of the game: I have this feeling that the game hasnt gained one more level, but that it was stretched from what it was. Same thing with the heroes. No new skills or abilities, now it just takes two level-ups to get the stats they had before with one level-up. Max had pilfer with level four, now its 5. Golgy got stealing with 3, now its 4. There's nothing new, just stretching the old stuff. Kinda disapointing. Like what I said about new heroes that doesn't add to the game, new levels that are the same level 3 again, again and again, don't add to the game.

Heroes can get to level 8 now, so they had to stretch the skills. I like more levels.

Fabs wrote:
6. Necrophage lair: personally, i find it kinda ugly - different from the labs, that I find an awesome setting, with a tetric horror feeling ("Something gone VERY wrong here!"). My suggestion would be make the settings influence in the gameplay. The adding of the hydra and the zombie in the labs fit perfectly in the theme of 'research-gone-wrong', so in the necrophage setting we could have only necrophage enemies - maybe less slots (major and minor), but they couldn't be broken, a bigger rate in food, but less in science and industry. Same thing with the labs: no necros (no assault on merchants or dust eaters), but a reduced food income, with -3 on each food module, and an extra +1 on science. Just tossing ideas. Why get rid of level 5? The 'no major modules slots' can work in a right setting. I loved the idea of get ready to level 5 before the patch!

Level 5 before the patch was absurdly easy, if you had any decent surplus of resources.

Fabs wrote:
Darn, I wrote way more than I intended. Those are my thoughts so far. Gonna play a bit more and if anything new comes to my mind, I'll update this post.



Again, thanks for this awesome game, devs!

Agreed.

Pallanza wrote:
there aren't enough kind of monster at the moment to offer challenge.

And that is why you know what you should vote for in the G2G vote

First of all, thanks for the devs for listen the community - all the time. I'll never get tired to praise them for that.



The game is great, I'm completely addicted to it to the point of think on make a guide for newbies on steam, something I've never did before.

Despite my love for the game, I have some criticism to say, some of you won't agree with everything, but maybe some will agree with certain points.



1. Map design: I know the maps are randomly generated, but the lack of slots for major modules is a killer, specially in the room next the starting point. I don't know how many times I played since the update - a lot! - but the chance of start with zero slots in all accesses is nearly 75% above level 3, not to mention that large spacing between the rooms with major slots is more common lately. It's not unusual to get a configuration in line like [Slot]-[Empty]-[Empty]-[Empty]-[Slot]. In my games, with 120, 150 of dust, I can get space for three modules, maybe four if I destroy the research crystal. Dunno about the rest of community, but thats what I'm getting lately.



2. Skroig: I voted for him, mostly because I liked his background story and his figure, in general, but so far I'm a bit disappointed with him. He seems to be an intermediary class that's not good in anything, like Deena and Hikensha (my least favorites, because they dont excel in nothing). We have operators (Opbot), fighters (Troe & Gork), and door-openers (Sara, Max and Golgy - who can double as operators). And we have Hikensha, Deena and Skroig, who don't have wit enough to be good operators, or need a huge investment in food to get the skill working, don't have speed enough to be door-openers, and don't have an impressive attack or defense to be fighters (Skroig being basically made of glass, and Hikensha a bit better if well equiped). Skroig needed a better role on this. IMHO, more heroes that dont excel in anyhting are a waste, just like items that give +1 Wit +2 Attack. Give us a +3 Attack, or a +3 Wit, or else they will serve only to be discarded or converted into dust in a Merchant.



3. Targeting: the mobs were improved, becoming deadlier, thats alright - but then, the targeting system for the heroes doesn't work anymore as it used to be before this patch. Its annoying when the heroes choose to attack the dust eater one (that shady walker that goes right to the power room), when theres a freaking CRYSTAL GOLEM attacking a module. Also, I noticed that the mobs seem to be targeting a single hero at the time, just as if he was wearing the scarf or the ahrmanni suit - sometimes the hero has 80% of his life then in a single round it dies from attacks from two golems, three fliers and three zombies at the same time. Doesn't seem the heroes do the same, or if they do the same, they focus in the less threatening enemies at the time. The targeting behavior should be appropriate to the room: if there's module in the room, or research crystal, the target should be the mobs attacking it, if there's no major modules but minor modules, the target should be the zombies or the flying squares, if its the core room, the target should prioritize the dust eaters.



4. (This one can be my fault, I don't know) Gameplay complain: zombies destroying minor modules break the 'tower' defense part of the game. Basically there's no point on create defensive corridors for the mobs if the first wave steamrolls it - its just a waste of industry. The only rooms where the defense isnt wasted at the first try are the long rooms, corridors with at least 5 slots, where we can put 2 slowing modules in the near entrance and 3 claymores after them. Zombie's damage is too high, or too fast. IMHO, it needs a rebalance. But to be completely honest, I prefered the way it was before, where after lever 3 the mobs became stronger but couldn't destroy the modules - it tended to make the thinking a bit of more strategic.



5. Lenght of the game: I have this feeling that the game hasnt gained one more level, but that it was stretched from what it was. Same thing with the heroes. No new skills or abilities, now it just takes two level-ups to get the stats they had before with one level-up. Max had pilfer with level four, now its 5. Golgy got stealing with 3, now its 4. There's nothing new, just stretching the old stuff. Kinda disapointing. Like what I said about new heroes that doesn't add to the game, new levels that are the same level 3 again, again and again, don't add to the game.



6. Necrophage lair: personally, i find it kinda ugly - different from the labs, that I find an awesome setting, with a tetric horror feeling ("Something gone VERY wrong here!"). My suggestion would be make the settings influence in the gameplay. The adding of the hydra and the zombie in the labs fit perfectly in the theme of 'research-gone-wrong', so in the necrophage setting we could have only necrophage enemies - maybe less slots (major and minor), but they couldn't be broken, a bigger rate in food, but less in science and industry. Same thing with the labs: no necros (no assault on merchants or dust eaters), but a reduced food income, with -3 on each food module, and an extra +1 on science. Just tossing ideas. Why get rid of level 5? The 'no major modules slots' can work in a right setting. I loved the idea of get ready to level 5 before the patch!



Darn, I wrote way more than I intended. Those are my thoughts so far. Gonna play a bit more and if anything new comes to my mind, I'll update this post.



Again, thanks for this awesome game, devs!

havocwon wrote:
Yeah, you're right. At level 1 he doesnt seem to have operate, but by level 2 he has it.

Precisely, I consider someone something, if they can adequately perform the job by level 4. It's easy enough to get heroes up to 4 quickly after all.

Fabs wrote:
Well, I consider him an operator mostly because his huge wit. Also because I knew him from the time every character could operate the modules from start - no need of level up - dunno what version of the game it was back then.

Yeah, you're right. At level 1 he doesnt seem to have operate, but by level 2 he has it.

havocwon wrote:
One thing to add to this - Opbot is not a operator. He's a repairer for me now. IDK if it was like this before.

Well, I consider him an operator mostly because his huge wit. Also because I knew him from the time every character could operate the modules from start - no need of level up - dunno what version of the game it was back then.

One thing to add to this - Opbot is not a operator. He's a repairer for me now. IDK if it was like this before.

melkathi wrote:
I like your ideas about maps influencing gameplay.

The "no major module" level would probably have fitted the Necrophage lair quite well. It would also fit a Necrophage Broodmother boss

A Broodmother Necrophage - you mean a necrophage queen that doesn't stop sending waves of newborn necrophages to the heroes unless they kill it? That would be awesome! Tricky, but awesome.

Pallanza wrote:




Like you said there are a lot of things that you say that I found crappy ideas in a way or an other that I'll summurize with starting by quoting ...



point 2 : You're talking about your feelings with heroes class. It's like you only want expert heroes but you have to think about one things, you always will the same 3/4 class expert in class needed and then you won't adapt to the randomize events ... I don't say heroes don't have defaults at the moment but you have to be "pitiless" to the hybrid-class that come ...

For me the problem is the fact that now all level don't give a skill, it would be nicer to think of new little skill to fill these lack or make a little enhance of existing skill the heroes already has in order to don't give the feeling that upgrade a heroes is just done to compensate the stuff he don't have and wasting food ...

I said that Sroig was a bit disappointing. I'm not against hybrid classes - max, sara and golgy are kinda of hybrid - what I meant was that heroes that lack an expertise feel flat for the gameplay. Of course I use them all when I get them - beat the game many times with Hik and Deena in the team, FORCED myself to, to learn them - but, like I said, I discard them as soon as possible as the chance appears. And worst, flat heroes tend to look the same. Take troe and gork, as samples of experts. Gork is a true tank, slow, and the more well armed he is, the slower he becomes. Troe, in the other hand, keeps speed, but lacks in defense. You feel the heroes differently. Golgy is great to scout dark areas, different from Max, who gets extra dust, who's different than Sara, who runs fast! Hikensha, Deena and Skroig... what? Medium dps, medium defense, medium hp, medium speed... not really MUCH difference from each other.

Pallanza wrote:


point 3 and 4 in the same time : I don't agree your targeting priority point of view ... Zombies have a classic role in tower defense, there always have some ♥♥♥♥ing tower destroyer ... And I don't want to tell you how to play but if zombies destroyed your tower again and again, it could be due to a lake of dps in the room ? If the crystal runner aren't the top priority for heroes, I would have many problem to find good defending ways, cause they don't stay in the room enought time to be killed by tower configuration of player (at least in small room) ... to summarize this point, I try to explain why I don't like your priority locking but the only way to make all happy is to create a feature or an option that ask you which order you want heroes focus monster and the same for turret ... Withsome special option for heroes like focus the same, focus all different, or whatever you want ...

Taking points 3 and 4 in the same: don't you think I havent tried to save the turrets sending heroes there? Here comes the targeting system issue: the heroes sent to save the modules end up attacking OTHER mobs that those he was specifically send to deal with.

Pallanza wrote:


point 5 : you get the point !

I really don't understood you here. You agreeing with me... and its a crappy thing what I said?

Pallanza wrote:


point 6 : i agree on the fact to influence in a way the influence of the map on your module and less for the spawn mob because it could conduct to make zombie golem, zombie flyer, zombie hydra, zombie Obi wan kenobi, zombie answer D ect ect in floor 6 (for example) ... it's not a so good idea to module spawn of monster considerating floor, cause they already are modulated by the floor and it make the difficult of the exploration ... Should we expect elite monster on harder mode ? It's an idea, isn't it ? Maybe, we will see in future version, boss monster waiting before the exit door ... But if they were named boss they have to be really challenging and not to tightwad on their dying ...

Again, I dont understood you here. Please, somebody help me to understand what he meant?

Like you said there are a lot of things that you say that I found crappy ideas in a way or an other that I'll summurize with starting by quoting ...



point 2 : You're talking about your feelings with heroes class. It's like you only want expert heroes but you have to think about one things, you always will the same 3/4 class expert in class needed and then you won't adapt to the randomize events ... I don't say heroes don't have defaults at the moment but you have to be "pitiless" to the hybrid-class that come ...

For me the problem is the fact that now all level don't give a skill, it would be nicer to think of new little skill to fill these lack or make a little enhance of existing skill the heroes already has in order to don't give the feeling that upgrade a heroes is just done to compensate the stuff he don't have and wasting food ...



point 3 and 4 in the same time : I don't agree your targeting priority point of view ... Zombies have a classic role in tower defense, there always have some ♥♥♥♥ing tower destroyer ... And I don't want to tell you how to play but if zombies destroyed your tower again and again, it could be due to a lake of dps in the room ? If the crystal runner aren't the top priority for heroes, I would have many problem to find good defending ways, cause they don't stay in the room enought time to be killed by tower configuration of player (at least in small room) ... to summarize this point, I try to explain why I don't like your priority locking but the only way to make all happy is to create a feature or an option that ask you which order you want heroes focus monster and the same for turret ... Withsome special option for heroes like focus the same, focus all different, or whatever you want ...



point 5 : you get the point !



point 6 : i agree on the fact to influence in a way the influence of the map on your moduleand less for the spawn mob because it could conduct to make zombie golem, zombie flyer, zombie hydra, zombie Obi wan kenobi, zombie answer D ect ect in floor 6 (for example) ... it's not a so good idea to module spawn of monster considerating floor, cause they already are modulated by the floor and it make the difficult of the exploration ... Should we expect elite monster on harder mode ? It's an idea, isn't it ? Maybe, we will see in future version, boss monster waiting before the exit door ... But if they were named boss they have to be really challenging and not to tightwad on their dying ...

I like your ideas about maps influencing gameplay.

The "no major module" level would probably have fitted the Necrophage lair quite well. It would also fit a Necrophage Broodmother boss