Mysterarts wrote:
So you have to choose between his fighting and economical potential

We are not loosing only his fighting potential, but also almost all support abilities. If hero is 'bind' to specific room, he cannot move to another one and fix damaged modules.

He cannot use abilites, that affects only another persons in the same room (healing, def/attack up). I think only Mormish feels pretty good right in battle, and somewhere far from it.

I'm really enjoying the new operate mechanic and it does indeed mix things up as far as how to approach encounters. It also promotes setting up a proper defense to fall back on in case you want to solo a large group of monsters instead of the usual open door, run back to party and fight method of handling an encounter we've all gotten pretty used to.

Fabs wrote:
It's not only about gain of resources. It's about the management of the heroes during the ACTION stage of the game.



See, as I see the game has two stages: PREPARATION and ACTION.



In the Preparation stage you set up everything for the Action stage: you change weapons, rebalance heroes on modules according to the needs (lets say the next science upgrade needs 24, and I have stored 18, but then the next door I'll have will add +4 to it, BUT if I put Deena in that science module, I'll get the +6 for the research.), sell stuff, buy stuff, add minor modules (like replace attack modules by gas or bio-transference modules). It's not a boring stage at all. It's only boring if you don't do anything but keep moving forward with the door-opener hero.



You see, make the door-opener hero run around setting up the next research because the hero thats's closest to the research crystal can't leave the room doesn't make the game less boring. Keep the modules off of being repaired because a fixer hero can't leave the room doesn't make the game less boring.



THEN we have the action stage, thats where the things that are out of control happen. THIS is the stage that must not be repetitive. Sometimes action isn't simply pull all heroes into the chokepoint - its to bring OPbot to the HUD Module, and make the faster hero run to save a merchant or a boss. And god forbid you of having two battlefronts, because you'll need to have heroes running around from point to point. In the end, you won't have any hero operating any module but those in the battlefronts.









I think the matter of resources is pretty lucky based. Sometimes you can research Science Module up do level 4, but the food resource is still at level 1.







Again - Preparation Stage and Action Stage. High Control stage and High Chaos stage. You are reducing the control in the preparation stage, but that doesn't pay off either in the action stage or the next preparation stage.







No. It fails because inbetween the preparations there are the action stage scrambling everything, so your plan of leave a hero into a module is trashed in the moment you need to bring that hero to the battlefront(s). It's not planning, it's wishful thinking.

+1 to almost what you explain.



Edit : After I haven't test the last patch 0.7.10 with the new balance, may be it's more handelable.

Way too complex. I like it being at least smart and easy.

And the other modules? What are your thoughts about the bonus in the HUD and LAN?

Whaat if it was a scaling bonus like this:



1st turn on module: +1 bonus immediately (total)

2nd turn on module +2 bonus (total)

3rd turn on module +3 bonus (total)

4th, 5th, 6th, etc n+1 bonus, max at 25-50% of wit



The number by which the bonus goes up and down could be dependent upon the hero's wit as well?



Moved away from module for a turn -1 to bonus

Moved away from module two turns consecutively -2 bonus (total of -3 to bonus)

3 consecutive turns moving away from module -3 bonus (total of -6 to bonus).

Mysterarts wrote:
Hi,



We can indeed discuss this modification

I understand that this type of changes can be difficult to accept at first, because it affects a gain of resources.

It's not only about gain of resources. It's about the management of the heroes during the ACTION stage of the game.



See, as I see the game has two stages: PREPARATION and ACTION.



In the Preparation stage you set up everything for the Action stage: you change weapons, rebalance heroes on modules according to the needs (lets say the next science upgrade needs 24, and I have stored 18, but then the next door I'll have will add +4 to it, BUT if I put Deena in that science module, I'll get the +6 for the research.), sell stuff, buy stuff, add minor modules (like replace attack modules by gas or bio-transference modules). It's not a boring stage at all. It's only boring if you don't do anything but keep moving forward with the door-opener hero.



You see, make the door-opener hero run around setting up the next research because the hero thats's closest to the research crystal can't leave the room doesn't make the game less boring. Keep the modules off of being repaired because a fixer hero can't leave the room doesn't make the game less boring.



THEN we have the action stage, thats where the things that are out of control happen. THIS is the stage that must not be repetitive. Sometimes action isn't simply pull all heroes into the chokepoint - its to bring OPbot to the HUD Module, and make the faster hero run to save a merchant or a boss. And god forbid you of having two battlefronts, because you'll need to have heroes running around from point to point. In the end, you won't have any hero operating any module but those in the battlefronts.

Mysterarts wrote:


But the fact that you get low in resources is rather a balancing problem that can be addressed separately.

I think the matter of resources is pretty lucky based. Sometimes you can research Science Module up do level 4, but the food resource is still at level 1.

Mysterarts wrote:


Why are we proposing this change? Well, in the previous versions, it was indeed simple, but also not very interesting, and very repetitive!

Each turn, you had to place heroes on production modules, open a door, place them in a chokepoint then repeat.



Doing that was not risky, there was no engagement in this action, it was just an obligation with no interest in term of gameplay (to separate to the resources interest!).

Again - Preparation Stage and Action Stage. High Control stage and High Chaos stage. You are reducing the control in the preparation stage, but that doesn't pay off either in the action stage or the next preparation stage.

Mysterarts wrote:


With the new system: yes, you may not do this each turn and you need to "sacrifice" a hero, or rethink your placement strategy. And this is a question that you may potentially ask yourself at each turn, because it's a significant choice. You now have to think about the placement of your modules, the placement of the heroes not only for the next 5secondes and that's why we think there is more commitment with this system.

No. It fails because inbetween the preparations there are the action stage scrambling everything, so your plan of leave a hero into a module is trashed in the moment you need to bring that hero to the battlefront(s). It's not planning, it's wishful thinking.

rzero wrote:
every turn you put this hero here, this hero there, this hero over there, then open door, get your operating bonus, and quickly run all your hero's back into the fight. Rinse, repeat.

And now you just lock a hero (or two) with high wit to one (two) room, till the end of the level.

What I like about the 2-round-change is the fact that you cant enter a non-powered room right after you opened a new door (just to prevent the spawning). I used to do this with the old versions of the game.



But the current solution isnt my favorite one because you're loosing a lot of managing your witty heroes (you will just try to find a good spot for them and park them for the whole level). Maybe it could be changed that you only have to wait one door before manipulating when the hero left an powered room and entered an unpowered one? So he needs one turn to refit for his mechanical equipment.

I really like this change. The game was very repetetive before in terms of min-maxing; every turn you put this hero here, this hero there, this hero over there, then open door, get your operating bonus, and quickly run all your hero's back into the fight. Rinse, repeat. It was a littly silly.

Lynx_gnt wrote:
We are not loosing only his fighting potential, but also almost all support abilities. If hero is 'bind' to specific room, he cannot move to another one and fix damaged modules.

He cannot use abilites, that affects only another persons in the same room (healing, def/attack up)

That's what makes it interesting! Now your placement decisions matter much more, and you have to decide where you want to "set up shop" in terms of modules and defenses if you really want to maximize your operating bonus.

Ok let discuss here about the changement of the manipulating the module bonus.



Before : You just have to put an hero on it with the good skill, and get the bonus each time the door is open. It's simple, but work well, and it's flexible for me.



Now : You have to put the hero on it with the good skill, open the door. And at then open the door again to finaly get the bonus. The hero should not leave the room, or you will need to redo the 2 open door manipulation to get the bonus.



I'm against for this reason :

- This way, it's like you "lose" a hero, because more or less you get the guy in the room, like a prisonner, I will never move again (unless you want to lose bonus). Look like you have a kid and you say to him "ok stay in your room".

- It's not "realist" I explain why. The hero in the room where he manipulate the module, can fight, and then move in the room with out losing the bonus. Ok cool.

But generaly the hero who can manipulating is the same hero that can repear module. So why during "no-wave time" the hero cannot leave his room to go repear the turrel of the next room and come back to his module before and get back is bonus working. Actualy if you leave the room during no-combat phase, you lose the bonus.

It's not logic according to the fact when he his fighting in is room, he don't touch the module anymore too, but keep the bonus.

We should only lose the bonus if the hero is not back at the module where he have a bonus when we open a new door. No just when it's leaving the room.

- In easy we get to low in resource.



Proposition :

- Don't lose the bonus when you leave the room in the peace time phase. Just lose the bonus if we open a new door and the hero is not back at it module.

- Give more resources on none manupulated module, so the manipulating don't become so critic. And become really a bonus if we take time to do it.



Ok I have to go back to work



Debat is open!

AgentDerf wrote:
But if he leave the room on a none fight moment, I think he should not lose the bonus if he come back to the room and module before new room open? Nope?

But if we do that, we keep the very repetitive action and we reduce the commitment, which is where we were standing previously.

PANCZASU wrote:


1) I lose some of the bonus F/I/S because of the time I have to spend reassigning my hero

2) I have to put my operator in a room where the monsters usually don't go, so I'm basically wasting his fighting potential.

So you have to choose between his fighting and economical potential, with more long-term repercussions… I think this is interesting ^^

Fabs wrote:
Keep it simple, people. Simple doesn't mean dumb, as overtly complex doesn't automatically make the game 'smarter'. Keep it FUN.

You have a problem with excess of resources?

Yes, I agree, the first problem for me with this solution is the addition of complexity (and this is the simpler solution that we found ^^). But you are missing my point about the issue of the previous system, it’s not related to “a problem with excess of resources”, as explained above

fepriest wrote:
What if the mechanic worked like this:

Hero placed on Module: +0 bonus

Hero on Module for 1 round: +50% Wit

# of rounds on module/?: "Resonance" rating goes up +1 (language is debatable).

Resonance rating: the number of times a Hero can step away from a Module and return to operate it without the 1 round delay. Maxes out at "x" number, while x=?

Alternatively, Resonance rating could be the number of rooms the hero could move away from the module before the reset occurs.

The same choice is being made (do I risk the loss of resources to defend with an additional hero?), but it changes the shape of the conflict from a question of whether or not you can afford the loss of resources for a round in order to defend against a major wave, to whether or not you're able to plan your defenses so that you'll be able to pull heroes to the front at critical times, but still be able to collect the resources you'll need to recover on the next round.

We thought about a system like that in first place, but found it too complex to integrate and understand for the player…

Lynx_gnt wrote:
This just make game absurdly hight complicated and illogical. It's already pretty hard (even after the last nerf), and hero placement not so simple (i disagree with Mysterarts description).

I’m only talking about the heroes’ placement during the door opening phase: during this time, there was almost no strategy and no interesting choice before, in my opinion. Then again, I understand your remark (even if “absurdly hight complicated” seems a bit exaggerated ^^) but for the “illogical” part, I think it’s more a question of habit. Indeed, if you didn’t play DotE before, the fact to get a bonus for putting 3 seconds a hero on a module is not necessarily logical too. Don’t you agree?





So yes, we still need to balance the game with this new change and are still listening your remarks and maybe ideas to fix the problem with a simpler solution!

I agree on with Mysterarts about the old fashion operating was a bit boring and repeteative.

But like the other guys up there, the new way don't convaince me...



May be it's can work if it's less critical, meaning by that : If we change a bit the cost or gain of industrie/food overall.



Because for the moment we have the feeling we do a run with less resources and an hero less disponible for fight. So a run much much harder.



So for exemple (a just give random number) if we agree that we will have less resources, let get the price of the claymore mine from 11 to 9 industrie.

For the food I don't know if we need to lower the price of the level, because for the moment I'm not use to the new 1-15 level step.

This just make game absurdly hight complicated and illogical. It's already pretty hard (even after the last nerf), and hero placement not so simple (i disagree with Mysterarts description).

You constanly need to check the crucial points in your defence. If danger of breaking down the defence line is exist, it be filled with 'operator' hero.

Right now, it's not about choosing which way is better. But which way is worse: relocate the operator hero and lose the profit and his full potential, or try to hold with lesser amount of heroes, but with much highter risk.

What if the mechanic worked like this:



Hero placed on Module: +0 bonus

Hero on Module for 1 round: +50% Wit

# of rounds on module/?: "Resonance" rating goes up +1 (language is debatable).

Resonance rating: the number of times a Hero can step away from a Module and return to operate it without the 1 round delay. Maxes out at "x" number, while x=?

Alternatively, Resonance rating could be the number of rooms the hero could move away from the module before the reset occurs.



The same choice is being made (do I risk the loss of resources to defend with an additional hero?), but it changes the shape of the conflict from a question of whether or not you can afford the loss of resources for a round in order to defend against a major wave, to whether or not you're able to plan your defenses so that you'll be able to pull heroes to the front at critical times, but still be able to collect the resources you'll need to recover on the next round.

Mysterarts wrote:


Hi,

With the new system: yes, you may not do this each turn and you need to "sacrifice" a hero, or rethink your placement strategy.

PANCZASU wrote:


It makes the game more challenging and forces you to think more strategically, which is something I like.

Pretty soon the only strategic thinking people will have is 'Do I REALLY want to play this game?'



Keep it simple, people. Simple doesn't mean dumb, as overtly complex doesn't automatically make the game 'smarter'. Keep it FUN.



You have a problem with excess of resources? Make the modules give you less resources at the time, or reduce the placements of major slots per level based on distance of the power node. Don't come with an overtly complex solution for the problem. The way things are going, pretty soon we'll have a food upkeep to worry about.

My two cents so far:



Heores with high wit are useless now (and pretty much +wit items), because with the new increased difficulty, we need all hands on battlefront all the time.

I have to say that I'm enjoying the new system, despite the reservations I had with it after reading the patch notes. It makes the game more challenging and forces you to think more strategically, which is something I like.



Also, this encourages more high-risk high-reward plays. For example, in the past I would never put a food replicator at the front of my defenses but now I usually do. I risk losing the module but I keep my operating hero in the place where he can help me fight. It also comes with additional decision - if my operator has low HP, do I spend a lot of food to save him, or do I back away and lose the operating bonus?



The only potential problem is that I generally try to only have one (2 if my party is really good) operating hero since I don't want to weaken my defenses by assigning a much-needed hero somewhere far away from the action. Which results in me getting a ton of one resource (the one that I'm operating) and falling behind on everything else. Sometimes I'm forced to fix this by reassigning my hero to a different module but there are usually 2 problems with that:



1) I lose some of the bonus F/I/S because of the time I have to spend reassigning my hero

2) I have to put my operator in a room where the monsters usually don't go, so I'm basically wasting his fighting potential.



So I think that while the system is fine, some numbers may require a slight bit of tweaking; currently it's just kinda hard to balance your FIS gain in a reasonable way.



Those are of course my initial impressions, maybe I'll soon figure out a way to have my FIS distributed a bit more evenly without weaking my defenses to a significant extent.

Yep, I understand your point of view.



But what do you think about the proposition of not losing bonus when you move the hero on a none fight phase.

I understand that, if the hero leave the room to help the other fighting he lose the bonus, it's normal.

But if he leave the room on a none fight moment, I think he should not lose the bonus if he come back to the room and module before new room open? Nope?

Hi,



We can indeed discuss this modification

I understand that this type of changes can be difficult to accept at first, because it affects a gain of resources.

But the fact that you get low in resources is rather a balancing problem that can be addressed separately.



Why are we proposing this change? Well, in the previous versions, it was indeed simple, but also not very interesting, and very repetitive!

Each turn, you had to place heroes on production modules, open a door, place them in a chokepoint then repeat.

Doing that was not risky, there was no engagement in this action, it was just an obligation with no interest in term of gameplay (to separate to the resources interest!).



With the new system: yes, you may not do this each turn and you need to "sacrifice" a hero, or rethink your placement strategy. And this is a question that you may potentially ask yourself at each turn, because it's a significant choice. You now have to think about the placement of your modules, the placement of the heroes not only for the next 5secondes and that's why we think there is more commitment with this system.



But if we talk about balancing: absolutely, we can consider your second solution for example!

(Remark: the operating bonus for production modules is now 50% of hero Wit; it used to be 25%)



Thanks for sharing your point of view!