Endless+

TealQuest

Newcomer

6 500g2g pts

11 years ago

Dec 27, 2013, 7:21:30 AM

First of all big thanks for the great game, I really enjoyed every second spent playing this awesomeness!

Some ideas I'd wish to share:

1. Endless dungeon

Already been proposed and answered, just wanted to suggest an implementation method:

In some other rogue game which had a story at some point you could find an entrance to the endless dungeon (which also opened an endless mode for the future starts, obviously with no story in it). I find it quite the best way for any rogue-like game to implement endless modes, which btw personally prefer the most in rogue games..

2.a. Defenses

Kinda feels lame (for now, as it is in alpha) that your defenses just progress in strength, even though their names suggest different damage (or effect) types. So suggestion is:

Make each defense system do different type of damage which will be more or less effective against specific enemies or situations (for future events). As it is now, I feel that stronger defense should just do more damage against tough enemies but should, for example completely ignore smaller (but not exactly weaker) enemies, tesla tower could shoot not very often but instead stun or slow attack speed of the enemy it hits. All this would allow to make a lot more variations of defense systems, like very cheap mines that explode (maybe even player-controlled) and do massive damage to everything in the room (including heroes unfortunate enough to happen to be in the room), rapid-fire systems, splash damage systems, emp/shock/stun system(s) (1 time use, or that requires some resources to be spent for each use) which shutdown for some time everything (or something specific) in a room for a period of time (including other defense systems, if it is emp, for example) and etc.. Works great if implemented with 2.b.

2.b. Enemies and rooms

Noticed that rooms has kinda different layouts that kind of suggest different methods (and/or creatures) to spawn in them, if they are not powered (drainage or what ever those are pipes, pools of some kind of liquid, or just mechanical or alien 'stuff') which might be used to spawn specific creatures that player might prepare to defend against and build appropriate defense against AND power other rooms they are not prepared to defend against. This would add more strategy element, as well as more space for lore to explore/study/research/buy? and implement in-game.

Might even generate whole levels fit for some specific creatures, with specific events. OR it might be implemented as kind of side quests where you go to special level to face some level-specific challenge there and then go back to story progression. Such side quests might be giving special bonuses against certain types of enemies in the future, a special item, hero ability or new unique blue print.

3. More environment interaction

Again, room designs are awesome! Truly piece of art, but have little impact on the gameplay. I'd really wish you could for example expect more enemies to come from rooms with open drainage, or pools, so there would be more motivation to power those up (hm, just thought, maybe it is already implemented and i was just not that perceptive?! if that is so, than I am really sorry, shame on me!XD). And maybe use those in the future, when science is implemented: to build kind of cheaper variants of food processing machinery, or that requires no special slot to be build other than room specific element (again those pipes and pools) or requires no power in the room to be active and etc.

4. Endless level mode

With next room generating when you open door leading into it. It might become unplayable at some point, but damn I wanna play that anyway!!!

red_locust

Newcomer

red_locust

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jan 1, 2014, 2:59:54 AM

I can't believe that endless mode is a doubtful/maybe after release (as per the community feedback thread), for a game like this, and it's even called dungeon of the endless! Seems like a no-brainer to include an endless mode, even if it is as simple as endless levels where spawns just get harder and harder until it is no longer possible. A sort of survivor mode.

An endless room mode seems more interesting, but it's hard to imagine how the gameplay could be balanced for such a mode.

spandia

Newcomer

spandia

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jan 1, 2014, 5:16:47 PM

red_locust wrote:
I can't believe that endless mode is a doubtful/maybe after release (as per the community feedback thread), for a game like this, and it's even called dungeon of the endless! Seems like a no-brainer to include an endless mode, even if it is as simple as endless levels where spawns just get harder and harder until it is no longer possible. A sort of survivor mode.

An endless room mode seems more interesting, but it's hard to imagine how the gameplay could be balanced for such a mode.

When I bought the game I kind of assumed I would be able to go down floors forever. Not being able to has been the biggest disappointment so far. I lost a lot of faith when I heard that it wasn't even a priority.

Ail

VIP

Ail

VIP

11 years ago

Jan 1, 2014, 10:27:02 PM

Same here too!

I'd think that the game should be designed around an endless-mode!

Them having mentioned it's not a priority in my book is just wrong!

red_locust

Newcomer

red_locust

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jan 1, 2014, 10:42:00 PM

The implementation seems pretty easy too - let's say, just replicate the last regular floor but keep increasing the spawn numbers for each subsequent floor you go down. Something more would be nice, but anything more than kicking you to the main menu after a few levels should be mandatory. I'm just thinking to other recent indie games, FTL, Papers Please, Rogue Legacy, where an endless mode pleased a lot of people even though the games were narrative-driven.

Ail

VIP

Ail

VIP

11 years ago

Jan 2, 2014, 9:44:10 AM

Yes, in a game that for the most part is procedurally generated anyways, adding a few algorithms that keep on generating increasingly harder levels should be almost trivial to do.

There actually is no easier way to add content to a game like this!

The game in it's current form, once you've beaten it, has almost no replay value. Trying to reach a higher floor-number in an endless dungoen would be that much more motivating to play!

It's almost mind-boggling how such an easy way to increase the amount of fun to be had with the game is not even considered a priority!

For me it would be THE priority #1!

(I'd also add endless-character-levels and endless item-progression, however the monsters would progress faster than the items/heros.)

I'd really like to hear from a Dev, what the reason of not considering that a priority would be!

DEVMysterarts

Dev

Lead Game Designer - Endless Dungeon

DEVMysterarts

Dev

36 000g2g pts

11 years ago

Jan 2, 2014, 10:34:26 AM

Hello,

Thanks TealQuest for your post, some very inspiring remarks here

We are currently working on the mobs (and modules) diversity and I like your ideas.

We technically can't do too complex interactions between enemies and environments but your proposal gives me some (more simple) ideas to test...

About Endless mode, we understand your expectations but yes, I confirm that we want to focus on the "story mode" with a fixed number of floors.

Currently, there are not many levels and the difficulty is not here yet, but when the game will be complete, we really think it will be important to give a goal, the 12th exit, to the player.

If I am not mistaken, FTL (one of our main inspirations) doesn't have an endless mode (not officially) and that makes sense in the structure of the game.

And the implementation is not "pretty easy" because a lot of elements (mobs, items, events, tilesets...) are "manually" distributed on the levels.

But yes, we like the idea and we will really probably do it one day!

Ail

VIP

Ail

VIP

11 years ago

Jan 2, 2014, 11:38:43 AM

Mysterarts wrote:

And the implementation is not "pretty easy" because a lot of elements (mobs, items, events, tilesets...) are "manually" distributed on the levels.

Well, if it is "not pretty easy", then something with the core of the design already is flawed. ^^

Let's just assume there was 12 floors, which you now kinda gave away is the aim for the game.

Here's the algorithms of how I'd go on from there in the endless-mode that should be there after finishing said 12 levels.

mobs: use their values (speed/attack/defense/health/whatever) of floor 12 and multiply them with CurrentLevel²/MaxStoryLevel² e.g: you are in level 15 then the mobs have 225/144 = 156% the power of those in level 12

items: in order to have the game still feel rewarding after floor 12 the items also should progress, so we once again can take the items of floor 12 and have them buyable/lootable with improved values. However, in order to have progressing difficulty, the items quality must develop slower than that of the mobs. This could be realized by multiplying their values with CurrentLevel/MaxStoryLevel instead of CurrentLevel²/MaxStoryLevel² so in floor 15 it's 15/12 = 125% better items

events: those probably should be storyline-exclusive

tilesets: nothing easier than simply randomizing which one to use after floor 12

science: I think the tech-tree will be made to be roughly but not completely researchable during a story-playthrough, maybe if you focus a lot on it you'll be able to finish it. I'd say that after having all technologies researched simply make it so you can research an endless improvement-project that improves everything that was previously improved by other techs by a small margin.

let's say we multiply all the improvable stuff by: (SciencAaccumulatedAfterReseachingAllRegularTechs+ScienceNeededToResearchAllRegularTechs)/ScienceNeededToResearchAllRegularTechs

For example: Say it takes 3000 science to research all the regular techs and now you continue making science and by level 15 say you have made 300 more science then stuff would be improved by 3300/3000 = 110% to ... turret-damage/resource-production/whatever else techs could possibly improve

DEVMysterarts

Dev

Lead Game Designer - Endless Dungeon

DEVMysterarts

Dev

36 000g2g pts

11 years ago

Jan 2, 2014, 12:31:35 PM

Thank you for these perfect algorithms

Ail

VIP

Ail

VIP

11 years ago

Jan 2, 2014, 4:36:26 PM

I'm not sure whether you are being sarcastic or not.

I don't claim these suggestions to be anywhere near perfection.

I just meant to give an example that it's not that hard to come up with something to realize an Endless-Mode.

I think it's something that could be given a try... in an alpha-stage or so.

red_locust

Newcomer

red_locust

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jan 3, 2014, 5:03:16 AM

Mysterarts wrote:
Hello,

Thanks TealQuest for your post, some very inspiring remarks here

We are currently working on the mobs (and modules) diversity and I like your ideas.

We technically can't do too complex interactions between enemies and environments but your proposal gives me some (more simple) ideas to test...

About Endless mode, we understand your expectations but yes, I confirm that we want to focus on the "story mode" with a fixed number of floors.

Currently, there are not many levels and the difficulty is not here yet, but when the game will be complete, we really think it will be important to give a goal, the 12th exit, to the player.

If I am not mistaken, FTL (one of our main inspirations) doesn't have an endless mode (not officially) and that makes sense in the structure of the game.

And the implementation is not "pretty easy" because a lot of elements (mobs, items, events, tilesets...) are "manually" distributed on the levels.

But yes, we like the idea and we will really probably do it one day!

I don't know man, I've played through about 5 level 3's so far, and it seems to me as though the game produces unique levels every time (within certain parameters). From here, it's hard to see why the game can't generate more levels in sequence after the 12th (where the player has finished the story and given the option to continue or end the experience) rather than having to start a new game over again to experience more unique levels.

FTL has a very popular unofficial mod that adds endless mode, so I guess there was never a need for an official one, but I get your point. It's just that the existence of endless mode in no way detracts from the story experience.

DarkMeph

Newcomer

DarkMeph

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jan 3, 2014, 12:31:53 PM

I am not a great fan of Endless modes. I tend to find them quite boring so I play them once or twice. I am wondering if it would be better if this was a mod then those who do not want to play a endless mode do not have to download it.

DarkMeph

red_locust

Newcomer

red_locust

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jan 4, 2014, 7:15:03 AM

Strange request... it would come as part of the game, and it wouldn't use any new art or anything so it wouldn't exactly be a 5GB download. I hate it when developers rely on modders to finish a game.

DarkMeph

Newcomer

DarkMeph

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jan 4, 2014, 2:24:40 PM

Have you seen the mods created for Endless Space? I am was suggesting that so the Amplitude could concentrate on getting the gaming mechanic right and then allowing the modding community to create Endless+ mode which people will have a different take on what should be in Endless+

DarkMeph

Foolamancer

Newcomer

Foolamancer

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jan 8, 2014, 5:32:34 PM

Mysterarts wrote:
About Endless mode, we understand your expectations but yes, I confirm that we want to focus on the "story mode" with a fixed number of floors.

Currently, there are not many levels and the difficulty is not here yet, but when the game will be complete, we really think it will be important to give a goal, the 12th exit, to the player.

If I am not mistaken, FTL (one of our main inspirations) doesn't have an endless mode (not officially) and that makes sense in the structure of the game.

Right, hi, new guy here. Pretty sure this is actually my first post on the forums, and apologies if this counts as necromancy, but I came here specifically to look up information regarding this issue and figured it was better to post in a thread that already existed than to flood the board with multiple threads about the same subject.

I recognize that Story Mode is currently your focus, but I do think that Endless Mode needs to be included in the product before it is officially released. The game is essentially built from the ground up for that style of gameplay. It's an infinite roguelike in every way except that there has been an arbitrary limit imposed upon it.

I don't say "arbitrary" to be offensive or to try and pick fights. I'm not trying to insult your design decisions or anything of the sort. Story Mode is great, the game should have it, and it's good to focus primarily on that if that's what you want to do. But this game needs an Endless Mode. It's what almost everyone playing it wants. It's even called Dungeon of the Endless, which, yes, gives sense given the backstory, but it also heavily implies that the game itself will be endless, and people will be disappointed when they find out this isn't the case.

It's true that FTL also lacks an endless mode. What you seem to be missing, just a bit, is that lack of an endless mode was the single biggest complaint against the game by its playerbase. FTL should have had an endless mode, and the community was not at all happy about it not being included in the final product. Yes, the story mode was fun, but it was missing a huge part of what people had expected and wanted for a game of that style. Whether or not FTL's developers agreed with you that it would be important to give the player a final destination, the players themselves disagreed, and ultimately the game suffered for it.

Yes, it's true that endless mode was one of the first completed mods for FTL, so you could, if you absolutely will not be persuaded to add it yourself, rely on the community to do it. It will be done, and probably very quickly following release, because it's what a lot of us very obviously want. But the fact will remain that the game itself will not include it as part of its actual release form, and this will hurt the way the game is received (and, as a result, the way it sells).

Adding Endless Mode, contrary to DarkMeph's rather nonsensical post, will not dissuade anyone from buying the game. Having it as an option can only increase your potential playerbase's numbers. Having Endless Mode does not stop anyone from playing Story Mode if that's what they want to do.

I won't pretend that I can pull the algorithms necessary to design Endless Mode out of a hat, but I will agree with the rest of those who posted that it seems like the game is halfway to Endless Mode already, and actually making it so seems like it would just be a matter of making slight alterations to what already exists rather than a complete overhaul. I don't doubt that there's still work left to do, but I also don't doubt that actually doing that work would be more than worth it.

To be blunt, people will be more eager to buy Dungeon of the Endless if it's an actual completed product that includes what seems like an extremely basic feature for this type of game. What you have here is already addictive as all hell and is worthy of attention, but it's also very obviously not finished and missing something big that everyone wants included. Putting Endless Mode in the game will not only make your game much more enjoyable to those who already own it, but will increase sales by making it a much more complete and worthwhile purchase, with dozens of more hours' worth of replayability.

I want to see this game succeed the way it should. Please, please, for the sake of the players and for the sake of your own sales, add Endless Mode.