What I learned from Level 5 - Dungeon of the Endless

What I learned from Level 5

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SteelSoldier

Newcomer

SteelSoldier

Newcomer

11 years ago

Feb 9, 2014, 11:29:41 PM

Yes, but imagine that over the course of 14 levels, you would not expect to find 1 or 2 levels where you could not gather resources, in level 5, we expect it, because it is there right now, so we can prepare for it.

What if, we would no resources at level 3, or any other level.

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RNGZero

Deep Sleeper

RNGZero

Deep Sleeper

11 years ago

Feb 11, 2014, 8:41:21 PM

Operating modules already carry risk depending upon how far away they are from the "front lines." Instead of zero bonuses on the first operating turn, there could be a small fixed bonus without including wit. This is important in the beginning because players may not have gotten lucky with an early 3rd hero or started out with two combat (low wit) heroes.

Correct me if I'm wrong but most players lean toward food in order to level/heal their heroes and get the maximum benefits of boost modules. This is a great method to opening doors because it limits the amount of industry spent on turrets while still gaining vast amounts of food/ind from operating. The elephant in the room is the destructible minor modules.

It does not seem worth it to build hallways of turrets or to defend major nodes with just damage turrets because you can not repair the minor node once it has been destroyed. Once all the minor nodes are gone, the room doesn't matter unless it connected a far flung major node or merchant. This limits the options a player has when constructing turrets which leads to the stacking of multiple heroes and buff modules to take care of entire waves within 1 or 2 rooms.

A locked operating system would increase the risks/rewards but it would not add different styles of play. Players would still pigeon hole their highest wit hero while defending with their remaining heroes.

Of course this could change when runes are added and the door opener needs more than 2 wit to select a advantageous option.

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supertartiflette

Newcomer

supertartiflette

Newcomer

11 years ago

Feb 11, 2014, 6:24:43 PM

I think the idea with the module operation taking many turn is a great idea, you put yourself in danger for a bigger reward. It also open new possibilities for heroes specialized in operation.

There are, however, few questions about skills (is using active skill cancel the operating ? Is hero's passive skill still active ?).

If more major modules with new effect are created, this could perhaps open new strategy for the player.

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tetracycloide

Newcomer

tetracycloide

Newcomer

11 years ago

Feb 11, 2014, 4:17:25 PM

With the described bonus system that I can see is how exploitable it is if you get lucky with a layout. I often find that at the end of a level there will be many unopened doors that open into rooms I've already been into if the layout has a large number of rooms with multiple entry points that form overlapping pathways. Basically it's a windfall of resources at the end of the dungeon level that's almost entirely luck based outside the 'skill' to recognize it when you see it where there is no longer the high risk to offset the higher reward. Depending on how it's balanced this may not be a problem though.

Another issue is high wit heroes namely the op-bot. With this proposed change I don't think I'd ever bother to touch him after putting him on whichever resource I wanted at the time in as safe a room as possible. He's got so little to offer offensively and defensively that there would rarely if ever be a reason to loose his massive wit bonus to production to have him help out. Certainly not after you have 2 or 3 other heroes anyway. So for the op-bot in particular instead of adding an interesting tactical decision it really kinda shoehorns you into doing one thing and one thing only every time since the op-bots wit bonus is their one redeeming quality and you loose that if you pull them off. On the flip side heroes with low wit and high offensive and defensive stats like the big slow guy with the sub-machine gun would offer very little in the way of reward. For a few characters with balanced stats there would be a real decision to be made though and maybe that's enough.

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Ail

VIP

Ail

VIP

11 years ago

Feb 10, 2014, 7:19:02 PM

Mysterarts wrote:

What do you think about this idea?

I like it a lot! The back-and-forth-moving of the operators is really repetative. Making it more commited with higher risk&reward certainly is a good idea.

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MandaloreTheUltimate

Newcomer

MandaloreTheUltimate

Newcomer

11 years ago

Feb 10, 2014, 6:18:50 PM

I didn't find level 5 that hard, at all. I had Golgy, Gork, Nurse Dena, and the robot all level 5 when I entered level 5, and by the middle of level 5, everyone was level 6. The method I use for transporting the crystal is saving up Dust. I use just 1 room for turrets, I don't need a lot of defense. When it comes time to transporting the crystal, I then use all the Dust I saved up to create a path to the exit, that way mobs don't spawn in the path to the exit, enabling me to avoid as much possible encounters as possible.

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MODNosferatiel

Informer

"God's in his heaven, all's right with the world." Nerv Motto, Neon Genesis Evangelion

MODNosferatiel

Informer

11 years ago

Feb 10, 2014, 5:10:42 PM

If you want to change it that way, why don't we also change the name from "operate" to "tune", giving it a permanent kind of bonus with diminishing but stacking returns per module, based on wit?

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DEVMysterarts

Dev

Lead Game Designer - Endless Dungeon

DEVMysterarts

Dev

11 years ago

Feb 10, 2014, 4:55:40 PM

Yes, that's a cool possibility

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Kreeth

Newcomer

Kreeth

Newcomer

11 years ago

Feb 10, 2014, 4:24:04 PM

Would the bonus stack or snowball somehow? As in, if you operate the module for a turn you get +X, but if you keep doing that for, say, 5 turns without unlocking the hero you would get +5X (or something along those lines)? Because that would be pretty interesting and would make the risk more worth taking.

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DEVMysterarts

Dev

Lead Game Designer - Endless Dungeon

DEVMysterarts

Dev

11 years ago

Feb 10, 2014, 2:03:29 PM

First of all, I reaffirm that the current level 5 is only a test to see how we can diversify the types of difficulty in the game. Thank you for your feedback

We think about this kind of “challenges” (with some adjustments ^^) in random levels, to vary the rhythm and fun during the run.

But I would like to get back to the first subject of this topic: the module operating. To be honest, we aren’t satisfied with the current state of this feature. We have an idea (amongst others) to improve it: we’d make it more dangerous and significant. And less systematic. To do this, the operating would no longer be an automatic action (it will need a right click) and the hero would be locked to the module: he/she will be unable to defend themselves, unless the player gives them the order but you would then lose the bonus for this turn. Otherwise, the hero remains locked to the module and the player doesn’t need to replace the heroes turn after turn. Obviously, taking this risk would grant you a more important bonus.

What do you think about this idea?

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supertartiflette

Newcomer

supertartiflette

Newcomer

11 years ago

Feb 10, 2014, 12:37:56 PM

I think the problem is not the difficulty but the way the level 5 is played. In the previous levels what seems important to me was the space managment: how to split your team, where you send your heroes for a maximum defense and a minimum danger and the fact that when you expend to build major modules, your old defenses become obsolete. In the level 5 you just need one or two rooms adjacent to the crystal and that's it for the space managment.

The level 5 need more difficulty and choices in the space managment. For example, a construction, in a random room, which as long as it's not destroyed decrease the number of wave spawned. But the monster attack it. This leave the player with a choice : put his team in danger to protect the construction or ignore it and face bigger waves.

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Ail

VIP

Ail

VIP

11 years ago

Feb 6, 2014, 2:57:21 PM

... is that the whole "Heros operating modules"-thing is mostly adding tedium but not joy.

In Level 5 I can just place the heros where I feel it makes most sense strategically. That makes the game very fast paced. Finishing Level 5 takes less than half the time of the other levels and the main reason is that in the other levels I feel forced to have them move back and forth from operating modules to strategically usefull positions for almost every single door!

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Kriss

Newcomer

Kriss

Newcomer

11 years ago

Feb 9, 2014, 9:58:52 PM

I can't say Floor 5 is difficult. It depends on what you did the other 4 floors and usually, you can beat it easily.

But i think that the dev deleted the major modules on the 5th floor to add a challenge. Later on, this 5th floor will have major modules. The current state of this floor adds diversity compared to other level, just enough to wait for next update (and next floor?).

I'm currently sitting on a 200/200 in ressources with 3 heroes (just lost one

) lvl 6 (the new guy), 5 and 4 heroes on floor 4. I'm lacking dust and easily defendable rooms (3 slots modules is my max currently...).

Those ressources are enough to beat floor 5, since I got defensive and regen modules up. So i agree on that "easy" concerning floor 5

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SteelSoldier

Newcomer

SteelSoldier

Newcomer

11 years ago

Feb 9, 2014, 9:23:17 PM

I would actually like if there were special levels like that one, where do you dont have access to specific modules, this would add another level of difficulty to the game.

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leracos

Space Mage

leracos

Space Mage

11 years ago

Feb 9, 2014, 10:01:29 AM

Add me to the group of people that thinks level 5 is too easy. Instead of my usual open two doors next to crystal, put major modules, and then choose one form to explore, I can just go all the way down one fork of rooms, before starting another. With Golgy in there defending, it's not hard to amass enough dust to power a ton of rooms, which makes defending trivial when you have a buffer of two or three powered rooms before enemy waves get to you.

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tetracycloide

Newcomer

tetracycloide

Newcomer

11 years ago

Feb 8, 2014, 9:49:35 PM

I wish there was more interaction to the manned major node mechanic than the simplistic have passive skill -> man node for wit bonus to production. Maybe some passives that improve the bonus based on the type of room like the background or perhaps the number of open doors leading to it? Maybe a way to upgrade major nodes to produce more resources when manned like charging them with dust?

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Dom173

Newcomer

Dom173

Newcomer

11 years ago

Feb 8, 2014, 1:21:33 AM

For me lvl 5 was prety easy too, even though i was in a worse position then supertartiflette. I started with around 70 industry and 40 food, with 4 heroes 1 lvl6 and 3 lvl5. I had no problems to beat that level with the right positioning and ability usage of the heroes. I only used tier 1 turrets and some hero healing and attack power modules.

There could be added a final, extra strong boss or something like that, as very last challenge. For example when u open the door to the last exit.

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supertartiflette

Newcomer

supertartiflette

Newcomer

11 years ago

Feb 7, 2014, 6:04:17 PM

Personally, I found the level 5 too easy and not really interesting. You just have to light up the two rooms adjacent to your crystal. Build support modules and put your heroes there. In the previous level the difficulty was to light up (and defend) a maximum of rooms to build major modules and to stock resources. In the last level I just sent one heroe open a door, back and fight, open, back, fight, open ... without decisions on which room light up and what module build where.

Also, I began the level 5 with around 500 in each resources et 4 heroes level 6 so perhaps it's the first 4 levels that are too easy.

edit : I did a second game and perhaps I was a bit enthusiasm when I said 500. It was probably around 300. My second game was less easy and I started the level 5 with 180 industry and 80 food (and 4 heroes level 6) but it's always easily enough for what I needed. I'd add that, without the majors module and extensions to defend, the level 5 lacks diversity of situation.

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Ail

VIP

Ail

VIP

11 years ago

Feb 6, 2014, 4:42:04 PM

On the other hand, changing that would reduce strategical depth aswell. Even now there are a lot of circumstances where lighting up a dark room with a hero pays off more than getting a measly +1 or +2 Food, as preventing a spawn in a bad location might easily save you the rebuild-cost of a module.

So I'm not really sure what my opinion on that is afterall. ^^

I think you overestimate the well-balancedness of the game's current state. I think the actual difference of always operating vs. never operating would not make or break the balance of the game income-wise. Might even turn out easier in the long run without ever operating considering the aforementioned circumstance. The best result of course will be to judge from situation to situation but I really don't think that you wouldn't be able to finish the game without operating-skills.

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VIPmelkathi

Forgotten VIP

"Golgy in the Lair of the Spider Queen" The best Dungeon of the Endless Boss Expansion that never was.

VIPmelkathi

Forgotten VIP

11 years ago

Feb 6, 2014, 4:35:34 PM

It makes sense. Though it would require a lot of rebalancing.

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Ail

VIP

Ail

VIP

11 years ago

Feb 6, 2014, 4:29:34 PM

I did do that in the previous levels. But it was comparatively dull and did not add to the fun of playing the game. I couldn't realize that I don't like it too much before before there was a level where you didn't have to do that.

So that's why I say that level 5 opened my eyes in that regards.

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VIPmelkathi

Forgotten VIP

"Golgy in the Lair of the Spider Queen" The best Dungeon of the Endless Boss Expansion that never was.

VIPmelkathi

Forgotten VIP

11 years ago

Feb 6, 2014, 3:24:58 PM

If you didn't do that in the previous levels, how would you be holding up resource wise in lvl 5?

I am currently farming lvl 4 to prepare for 5.

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