Daulken wrote:
EACH tech in the final age needs 93,000 science.

Ok, now I'm REALLY confused. In the above example, I had researched 2 additional techs from previous ages. Now, in a different game I have exactly 9 techs in each of the prior ages, and the age VI techs are going to cost me 186,840.



What's the difference? Same number of cities in both cases.



--Daulken

Another scientific on round 157 with (custom) Wild Walkers on endless. Though start with my neighbour Necrophage declaring war on me around turn 40.

Scientific victory is the only way to go when you are lazy and your main quest is bugged.

DrakenKin wrote:
Don't forget that trade routes give science.

The AI doesn't seem to ever build improved roads, though. I don't think I've ever managed to trade with the AI for this reason.

Nasarog wrote:
I just disregarded his post. I figured he was gaming it somehow. Yea, if I make a custom faction, I too shall crush the AI.

Ofc AI magically starts playing better, when you play basic faction...



If i played purely basic faction, getting science victory by turn 135 would be harder, but I'm certain i'll get it normally 15 turns or so later, optimization only gets you ahead a few turns, especially on endless difficulty it makes no difference since you get cities with more techs and more of everything from AI... Playing normal factions is just psychologically frustrating to min/max ♥♥♥♥♥s like me

Just won a Scientific victory on round 139 with (custom) Cultists. Standard parameters, normal speed, endless difficulty.

Antistone wrote:
Wait. So, in your previous post, when you said turn 135-150 is typical for a science victory if you're not being lazy, you were assuming an optimized custom faction?



That's kind of like saying that anyone should be able to win by turn 50, and then coming back the next day to say oh, by the way, I'm assuming you play with a custom mod that makes everything run at 5x normal speed.



In games that offer custom factions as an advanced option, they are rarely balanced with the standard factions, because balancing complex point-buy systems is hard. But in Endless Legend, they didn't even try. Custom factions can clone many standard factions with substantial points leftover, so you can get a big power boost even without min/maxing.

I just disregarded his post. I figured he was gaming it somehow. Yea, if I make a custom faction, I too shall crush the AI.

Koblihozrout wrote:
Second thing is custom faction, i never play basic factions.

Wait. So, in your previous post, when you said turn 135-150 is typical for a science victory if you're not being lazy, you were assuming an optimized custom faction?



That's kind of like saying that anyone should be able to win by turn 50, and then coming back the next day to say oh, by the way, I'm assuming you play with a custom mod that makes everything run at 5x normal speed.



In games that offer custom factions as an advanced option, they are rarely balanced with the standard factions, because balancing complex point-buy systems is hard. But in Endless Legend, they didn't even try. Custom factions can clone many standard factions with substantial points leftover, so you can get a big power boost even without min/maxing.

Tigregalis wrote:
Yeah, +45% science production is pretty amazing. Then again, other factions have science boost or science efficiency trait on top of their unlocked hero skills. Purely based on science production, I don't know which is more effective.

The cultist abilities. Unless you're breaking level 25 with those heroes anyway.

I don't usually worry about settlers early game. I seldom build more then two through whole game. I play with 8 players (7 AI). And on higher difficulties most of the time. So taking cities from AI is much more beneficial than developing your own, because when you take them, they are very big (AI bonuses). So basically the lower your difficulty the harder science victory is...



Second thing is custom faction, i never play basic factions. I min max stats (i don't take +1 science trait, it's worthless)... Taking science pillar helps early on (if you have ardent mages it's still great even lategame). If you have science luxury resource, and spam it without pause, it helps a lot. I don't focus on science production (with my population) until i'm in the last era, i balance city development, food is crucial ofc. I try to research, build or buy, science techs as priority through the game. You can usually start researching end techs by turn 110-120.

Don't forget that trade routes give science.



The more cities you have, the more AI cities there are and the farther their placement, the more science you get. If you compare a 6 city empire (each city having up to 3 trade routes bringing science) compared to an isolated 3 city start, you quickly see the difference. Number of cities would double your science. Trade routes would probably triple it. And it adds up, the sooner you unlock some techs, the faster your science skyrocket. You can see now how a 300 science victory can quickly become 150 turns if you are pushing the right buttons.



Other elements are to have your cities to fervent, it gives more science, to not neglect growing them since population will equal science when you full flip them later, and of course mind the empire plan bonuses.



Science victory doesn't mean every worker on science. You have to balance growth, influence, production to get all the right elements you need to click.

Nasarog wrote:
Te best city governors are the Cultist heroes, and this is by a longshot! They have the shortest path to winter negation, and they have 2 an extra node that affects all of the FIDSI, as well as one for Dust, Influence and research.

Yeah, +45% science production is pretty amazing. Then again, other factions have science boost or science efficiency trait on top of their unlocked hero skills. Purely based on science production, I don't know which is more effective.

Te best city governors are the Cultist heroes, and this is by a longshot! They have the shortest path to winter negation, and they have 2 an extra node that affects all of the FIDSI, as well as one for Dust, Influence and research.

You should grab some heroes from the market for governors too, Ardent Mages or Vaulters if I'm not wrong. Cultists even.



The other thing is that there are cost multipliers based on your game speed.

Fast = 50%

Normal = 100%

Slow = 150%

Endless = 200%



Source: Endless Legend\Public\Simulation\SimulationDescriptors[GameSpeedBonus].xml



Were you playing on fast and then normal, or normal and then endless?



I've looked at Endless Legend\Public\Simulation\SimulationDescriptors[Class].xml

and it's clear that it's based on your game speed, and that you're now playing endless speed.



Because the calculation is thus (not exactly, but the end result is the same):

UnlockedTechnologyCount = 45 : 9 techs for the first 5 eras

Era6CostMultiplier = 22.5

SpeedModifier = 2 : endless speed

BaseTechnologyCost = ( ( ( 0 + ( UnlockedTechnologyCount + 1 ) )^2 - UnlockedTechnologyCount ) + 5 )*2

TechnologyCost = BaseTechnologyCost * Era6CostMultiplier * SpeedModifier

So:

BaseTechnologyCost = ( ( ( 0 + ( 45 + 1 ) )^2 - 45 ) + 5 )*2 = 4152

TechnologyCost = 4152 * 22.5 * 2 = 186840

Your second era 6 tech (46 unlocked) will cost you 195120, third (47 unlocked) 203580, fourth (48 unlocked) 212220, and so on



In your first situation it appears you had

UnlockedTechnologyCount = 45 : 9 techs combined for the first 5 eras **

Era6CostMultiplier = 22.5

SpeedModifier = 1 : normal speed

So BaseTechnology = ( ( ( 0 + ( 45 + 1 ) )^2 - 45 ) + 5 )*2 =

TechnologyCost = 4152 * 22.5 * 1 = 93420

** You must have done two extra researches in other eras but foregone two other researches. The prerequisite for unlocking era 3 is not 9 researches in era 1 and 9 in era 2, it is 18 researches combined in eras 1 and 2.

I'm pretty new to the game, so I'm going through and trying to do each faction and their basic "preferred way to win". For both of the science factions, it seems nearly impossible to generate enough science to achieve victory that way by turn 300.



Note, I tend to like shorter games, so I'm playing a smallish map. There are 6 territories on 2 continents, and I've never even met my opponent.



I play almost pure science from early on. Founding a second city probably around turn 20, and maybe turn 45 for the second one because the terrain in that district isn't going to really make for a good city until I have a LOT of tech to pour into it. Maybe that's the problem, but whatever. It should still be possible.



I'm able to keep my empire mostly content or happy throughout the ages, but building very aggressively (I'm selling most of my strategic resources, probably even 20 turns or so for as much as 10k). Oddly, I had way more strategic resources than luxury, which may have been a problem. Anyway, I build almost all of the science buildings, and certainly the really good ones immediately as soon as the tech is available by just buying them with dust. I've got 3 population working on industry and everything else on science. I hit the final age (5 or 6, I forget) around turn 180, and take a snapshot.



Two of my cities produce over 1k science per turn. One of them produces just under, 850 or so. Overall I'm producing ~3200 science per turn but EACH tech in the final age needs 93,000 science. I did do I think two extra researches, but that couldn't be helped based on the situations I was in. I wouldn't think it would be THAT hard. That's 29 turns it will take to research the science one, which will basically halve the rest, so they'll still take 15 turns each. There's no way I have enough time and I've had NO competition the entire game from my enemy.



So, tips on maybe if I'm doing something wrong would be great, but let's face it. At this point my empire score is almost 150 points over the next guy, and I know I could build a single army that would just annihilate his entire continent, or just let the clock run out and beat him by score. Is science really just that hard to win, or am I missing something huge?



Luxury boosters would have been nice, if available (in a small map they aren't always available, even in the market), but even with an extra 20-50% I can't imagine that it would have made THAT big of a difference unless that was constant the entire game?



Help!



--Daulken

Koblihozrout wrote:
I don't know about turn 120, it's certainly possible, but you'll have to have some luck. 135-150 is typical if you're not lazy or very unlucky.

I'm clearly missing something if that's even possible, much less "typical".



I have a couple of questions for you then, if you don't mind.



What are your very early game priorities? Building a second city extremely early unless the available regions for that second city are just awful seems like a pretty good use. If I go crazy, I can usually get to age 2 before my first empire plan, but can't afford getting the building reduction (which seem critical to building a lot of science and industry buildings) if I've already built a second city. I've been experimenting with building early buildings and putting my second worker in industry if I have good terrain food, but I think that's slowing me down a bit overall.



Dust, specifically: What do you spend that first say, 400 dust on? Buying a hero for your second city early seems pretty weak in comparison to other things you can spend it on (even at level 2, the ardent mages produce an extra 8 science, where any of the buildings you can rush for even less dust would produce more, but the hero will snowball better late game. You end up with hero options with poor governor skills if you wait though, unless you're extremely patient. Pillars are an option, but you're wasting some efficiency if you don't build at least 1 borough first.



Techs and cities:

Do you build an engine in your cities first? The civilization player in me wants to build seed storage and mill foundries in all my cities before even worrying about science. It builds a better late game engine, but doing that doesn't even put me close to 150 turn victory. I want to say I'm solidly hitting age 5 typically in the 135-150 range.



How many cities are you building in that example?





I'd appreciate any other feedback.



--Daulken

Ulto wrote:
Standard settings, normal speed, endless difficulty.

Wait... achieving science vitory at endless difficulty? Are you a God or a cheater?

I don't know about turn 120, it's certainly possible, but you'll have to have some luck. 135-150 is typical if you're not lazy or very unlucky.

Nasarog wrote:
What? what kind of game settings are you playing on?

Standard settings, normal speed, endless difficulty.

Ulto wrote:
Science victory is the automatic victory you will eventually get even if you don't actively try to.

In a single player game, depending on your focus, you should get it between turn 120 and turn 200.

The best faction to get a science victory is with no doubt the ardent mages thanks to their pillar.

The main factor is not the number of city, but rather how strong is your start. If you have a strong production/science output at the beginning, you will be able to quickly get the key building to develop your cities.

What? what kind of game settings are you playing on?

Science victory is the automatic victory you will eventually get even if you don't actively try to.

In a single player game, depending on your focus, you should get it between turn 120 and turn 200.

The best faction to get a science victory is with no doubt the ardent mages thanks to their pillar.

The main factor is not the number of city, but rather how strong is your start. If you have a strong production/science output at the beginning, you will be able to quickly get the key building to develop your cities.