Luxury resources not spawning properly on certain map types. - Endless Legend

Luxury resources not spawning properly on certain map types.

Reply

Copied to clipboard!

Antistone

Ardent

Antistone

Ardent

10 years ago

Nov 4, 2014, 4:53:17 AM

Tigregalis wrote:
Forests are special in the sense that they, along with coastal sea/lakes and rivers, have specific upgrades that increase the output there - they would have to be uniquely defined to allow for this interaction. Also, I can't confirm, but I can't recall whether I've seen any luxuries spawn on top of forests or rivers. My theory is that anomalies/ruins/villages/forests/rivers/lakes/strategics are "crowding out" luxury resources.

That's an interesting theory, but it doesn't seem to be true. I looked around a bit in my current game and found the following:

A strategic resource in a forest:

A luxury resource in a forest:

A village in a forest:

An anomaly in a forest:

A river in a forest (and, incidentally, ruins on a river):

A strategic resource on a river:

A luxury resource on a river:

A watchtower on a river:

A watchtower on a river in a forest:

I did not spot an anomaly on a river; that seems like it could be by design (since they both give FIDS bonuses, Amplitude might have decided that stacking them would be unreasonable), but it might also just be due to chance. I also didn't notice any villages on rivers.

0badgesSend private message

Antistone

Ardent

Antistone

Ardent

10 years ago

Nov 11, 2014, 6:06:48 PM

Tigregalis wrote:
Do we have a solution? Not one we can implement ourselves.

Actually, if you just change the "max resource per region" on a huge map to be the same as for a standard-size map, that should be a decent work-around.

Our working theory is that the algorithm for choosing which resources to spawn doesn't take the maximum number into account, and then the list of resources it chooses gets truncated; therefore the lower you set that limit, the more the generation is biased towards the resources that happen to be listed earlier in the internal list.

A true fix for that requires changing the algorithm, which is something Amplitude would have to do. But the higher you set the maximum resources per region, the less noticeable it should be.

0badgesSend private message

Tigregalis

Newcomer

Tigregalis

Newcomer

10 years ago

Nov 11, 2014, 3:26:24 PM

Uh, yeah, we reckon we already cracked it about 5 or 6 posts above yours:

/#/endless-legend/forum/5-general/thread/1932-luxury-resources-not-spawning-properly-on-certain-map-types

/#/endless-legend/forum/5-general/thread/1932-luxury-resources-not-spawning-properly-on-certain-map-types

Do we have a solution? Not one we can implement ourselves.

Here are suggestions you can try though:

- Set map size to "Tiny".

- Go to Advanced Settings > World Difficulty > set Strategic Resources to "Rare" and Luxury Resources to "Abundant"

0badgesSend private message

zupalex

Newcomer

zupalex

Newcomer

10 years ago

Nov 11, 2014, 10:53:55 AM

Ok guys, here is a link to my save file because you seem to ignore the fact that even on a huge map you can end up with only 1 luxury spawning and that at first it was about a bug in the world generation which was discussed here. Not about "features" for replayability.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/djqugond0bvmevd/AADLJCQiJuOUQtbA9EU_U9mIa?dl=0

0badgesSend private message

Antistone

Ardent

Antistone

Ardent

10 years ago

Nov 11, 2014, 7:25:43 AM

A possible reason for putting more kinds of luxuries on a larger map is that larger maps are intended for more players, and they've got some target for the number of luxury resources that player A will have but player B does not, to give them incentives to trade. As you get more players, each individual player has more potential trading partners, so you need more unique goods to distribute among them to maintain the same probability that two random players will have something worth trading with each other.

0badgesSend private message

Tigregalis

Newcomer

Tigregalis

Newcomer

10 years ago

Nov 11, 2014, 3:37:30 AM

So a "huge"-sized map (with all 15 possible resources - assuming they fixed the spawning issue) is less replayable?

If adding variation to playthroughs is truly the intent, it's a poor implementation.

0badgesSend private message

taltamir

Newcomer

I do not have a Superman Complex; for I am God, not Superman!

taltamir

Newcomer

10 years ago

Nov 10, 2014, 7:07:43 PM

Tigregalis wrote:
I could be reading it wrong, but it appears they only allow a set number of luxury resources to spawn (6, 9, 12 or 15).

That is an utterly bizarre way of doing things. Why would they exclude resources from spawning? I don't really understand why they've done that (if that's indeed what they've done).

Replayability, by making different set of luxury resources exist in every playthrough, they force you to adjust your tactics. you can't rely on wine or dragonbones because they might not exist in that game playthrough

0badgesSend private message

Tigregalis

Newcomer

Tigregalis

Newcomer

10 years ago

Nov 10, 2014, 8:54:30 AM

The only thing I've seen is this:

[code]

WorldGeneratorSettings.xml:

4

999

100

100

[/code]

Those are default values.

Below are the actual values used based on "world difficulty". (easy => many, hard => few, or custom)

[code]

WorldGeneratorOptionDefinitions.xml:

Advanced

70

120

200

Advanced

70

120

200

[/code]

which is not very helpful at all. PERHAPS we could reduce StrategicResourcesAbundance and increase LuxuryResourcesAbundance. You can do this right now if you go to Advanced Settings > World Difficulty > set Strategic Resources to "Rare" and Luxury Resources to "Abundant". I haven't tested this though.

...

I like your proposed solution.

First, (randomly?) determine the total number of each unique resource in the world.

Next, randomly distribute these resources among the regions of the world.

If there are 21 unique resources, then an equal distribution of resources would mean that each unique resource would make up 1/21 of the total number of resource points (with total = number of resources per region * number of regions).

If not using an equal distribution, then I think each resource should have at least 1/42 - half of equal distribution; and no more than 2/21 - double equal distribution.

In fact, if we could just set the weighting of each resource somehow, that would be much easier.

For example:

The Abundance columns use a Ceiling function, to ensure that each resource spawns at least once on the map.

0badgesSend private message

Antistone

Ardent

Antistone

Ardent

10 years ago

Nov 10, 2014, 6:23:33 AM

Ah, so you're theorizing that the algorithm for resource generation looks something like:

[code]For each region:

For each resource type:

If (random chance) then spawn that resource in that region

If (resources in region = max resources per region) then stop iterating over resources and skip to next region[/code]

That would seem to explain the observed behavior.

That's probably a bad way to generate resources, due to exactly this problem, but I suppose that might not have been obvious in advance.

Have you spotted a parameter in any of the XML files that defines the probability that a given resource will appear in a given region? That would lend further credence to this theory, and might also provide a way of mitigating the observed problems.

(In case anyone's curious, the easiest way to modify the above algorithm to fix this problem would be: for each region, randomly choose how many resources to spawn in that region, then select that number of resources at random. But a better algorithm for ensuring overall resource balance throughout the world might be: for each resource, randomly choose how many of that resource to spawn in the entire world, then distribute that amount of that resource randomly among all the available regions.)

0badgesSend private message

Tigregalis

Newcomer

Tigregalis

Newcomer

10 years ago

Nov 10, 2014, 3:22:29 AM

New theory.

This is the world generation text (in English):

[code]

Behold, my birth.

The birth of Auriga.

At first, from the void, came the shape.

Within that shape, continents rose up from the seas...

...and within those continents, the regions were created.

Then the regions were covered by desert, and forest, and grassland...

...and by hills and mountains that rose up to give my face a form.

Clouds drew together, rains fell, and the rivers swelled with water...

...and the lands grew wetter or drier as the rivers carved their way.

From beneath the crust of my skin precious resources thrust up.

Lesser species as well evolved and ranged across me,...

...and as all of these lived and grew and died they left their traces.

Lastly, for my children, I sowed places where my bounties could be easily reaped:

Bounties in minerals, in magics, in the wealth of the soil.

And when all was ready, and I saw that the world was rich, …

...only then, were my children were seeded upon it.

And then nothing remained but to wait, and to hope.

So the void became the shape, …

...and the shape became the land, ...

...and the land became rich, ...

...and all of that is me.

Auriga.

[/code]

These are the strategic and luxury resources:

[code]

Titanium Deposit

Occuring in mineralized form, the extraction of titanium is complex process for an alchemist, but the effort is worth it. Light, strong, and resistant to water damage this metal can transform armies.

Glassteel Deposit

Sprouting in tangled fronds, the vines, when heated in sealed vats with sundry chymicals, can be drawn out into incredibly strong filaments that have myriad uses, such as garrotting wire.

Adamantian Deposit

No material except diamond comes close to the unbreakable nature of adamantian. Recent advances in smelting now allow craftsmen to extract this metal for many uses.

Palladian Deposit

This roseate mineral which expands in geometric-shaped waves, grows from patches of earth rich with fossilized remains. Clever treatments allow the mineral to be transformed into a light, regenerative mail.

Mithrite Deposit

Mithrite, or "Emerald Lances", once purely used for decorative flourishes in the halls of the exalted, is now understood to be a powerful Dust-enhancing substance when prepared in a special crystalline form.

Hyperium Deposit

For long ages, perhaps because of the noxious clouds that hung over deposits, Hyperium's amazing fertilizing powers were unknown. Now, by using sophisticated filtering masks, this miracle substance can finally be exploited.

Dye Deposit

Used to stain liveries, heraldic bearings, clothing, and select foodstuffs, a city-state's standing among its neighbours can be greatly improved with flashes of carefully administered colour.

Emeralds Deposit

Trading caravans carrying these dazzling green stones not only signify major mercantile muscle, but also attract the attention of wide-flung populations who travel leagues to witness their stunning beauty.

Gold Deposit

Flaunting a lustrous, golden hue and impervious to the ravages of water and air, gold is a true king of the elements and an essential commodity for moving beyond the barter system.

Spices Deposit

The grinding down of roots, fruits, or leaves of certain fragrent plants into pungent, aromatic powders can transform city food stocks. Where once vulnerable to rot, many foods when treated can be preserved for several moons.

Wine Deposit

The fortifying effects of fermented juices have long been known to your people. "Merry head by night, hale body by day," as the saying goes.

Blood Crystal Deposit

Long rumoured to be a vital ingredient in the concoctions of crones, it is now known that a draft composed of blood crystals elevates a soldier's pain threshold, making him more resilient to enemy blows.

Grassilk Deposit

Thanks to important advances in the craft of weaving, the production of light yet heat-trapping clothing from these gossamer webs has become a reality.

Moonleaf Deposit

As it is a mild stimulant, when Moonleaf extract is added to city water supplies the population's productivity levels rise significantly.

Quicksilver Deposit

Although the exact mechanism is still poorly understood, weapons and armours forged with small quantities of quicksilver have some capacity to learn from battle experiences.

Titan Bones Deposit

Earlier generations, fearing they would invoke terrifying spirits, did not disturb the graves that held these ossified remnants. Modern artisans feel no such anxiety, however, and craftsmen gleefully plunder these ready-made girders.

Dust Orchid Deposit

Related to the cacti family and able to grow in a staggering diversity of climates, dust orchids were once thought an invasive pest. They are now considered a miracle of nature that transforms medical, agricultural, and Dust-enchanced technologies.

Dustwater Deposit

Bubbling up in fetid pools, raw dustwater is a hallucinogenic of mind-shattering power -- the province of torturers and madmen. Properly admininstered, however, the amber liquid endows strong-minded individuals with great insight.

Hydromiel Deposit

Long deemed an edible curiosity of little value (the fruit is delicious, but swiftly triggers indigestion), recent advances in botanics have turned the processed fruits into an important staple of the Aurigan diet.

Pixie Blood Deposit

Weapons coated with monomolecular layers of pixie blood become far more lethal, as the edges are transformed into writhing, serrated teeth.

Redsang Deposit

A lichenous growth, redsang has long been known to make a pungent spice used to pep up bland meals. Only recently discovered, however, is the fact that fecal waste produced after ingestion teems with Dust.

[/code]

From WorldGeneratorSettings.xml

[code]

4

[/code]

I believe this is overridden by these options, in WorldGeneratorOptionDefinitions.xml

[code]

50

30

6

9

...

70

50

9

8

...

90

60

12

7

100

70

15

6

...

120

80

15

5

...

[/code]

So here's what we know:

1. Resources appear to all be generated together in the one step.

2. Resources appear to be generated in the order of Strategics 1-6, then Luxuries 1-15.

3. There is a maximum number of resources per region, based on map size. The larger the map size, the less resources per region.

So here's the theory:

1. For each region, the Generator generates resources in the order Strategic1, Strategic2, ..., Strategic6, Luxury1, Luxury2, ..., Luxury15

2. If the max number of resources per region is reached, the generator stops generating resources in that region.

3. If the max number of resources per region is, say, 4, then as it generates, for example, Strategic1, Strategic2, Strategic4, Strategic6 - there's no more room for any other resources.

4. As a result, later strategics and all luxuries are found in less abundance than earlier strategics. And that's what many of us have noticed.

Because the larger the map, the lower the max number of resources per region, the less likely that luxury resources are generated. On a "huge" map you only get 5 resources per region. Luxury1 is Dye - that's why Dye was the most common.

0badgesSend private message

zupalex

Newcomer

zupalex

Newcomer

10 years ago

Nov 9, 2014, 7:02:21 PM

The theory about the size of the map is unfortunatly not correct. The map on which the situation encountered was the worst for me (only dyes spawning) was on a "huge" map.

0badgesSend private message

Antistone

Ardent

Antistone

Ardent

10 years ago

Nov 7, 2014, 11:35:15 PM

Yanislav wrote:
It seems highest number of resources per region is set depending on map size. Because generator is most likely forced to spawn all types of strategic resources they may fill most if not all spots in region. Thinking about it now I've only seen higher eras luxuries on smaller maps. If generator puts resources in set order, starting from the earliest era, few last spots are filled with 1st era luxuries.

That's not a bad theory, but I notice that the XML that Tigregalis quoted seems to never put the max resources per region lower than 5, and out of several games I've played with default map settings, I don't think the average resources per region has ever been above 5 anyway, so a clever algorithm should be able to maintain the same average resource density even within that limit.

But it could be interesting to modify that XML file and see if that fixes your problem.

0badgesSend private message

Yanomir

Alien

Yanomir

Alien

10 years ago

Nov 7, 2014, 10:40:50 PM

After reading code part Tigregalis posted I have different theory. It seems highest number of resources per region is set depending on map size. Because generator is most likely forced to spawn all types of strategic resources they may fill most if not all spots in region. Thinking about it now I've only seen higher eras luxuries on smaller maps. If generator puts resources in set order, starting from the earliest era, few last spots are filled with 1st era luxuries.

0badgesSend private message

Shazzamx

Newcomer

Shazzamx

Newcomer

11 years ago

Oct 16, 2014, 7:49:08 AM

I did some testing and when I play on chaotic maps (only tested this in huge btw) the only luxury resource that would appear througl all ages was dye. When I put the map shape to regular all luxury resources started appearing again.

To me it looks like many of the settings you can fiddle with effect hidden things in the game, that they should not. I allready made another post about how the speed setting of the game seemed to effet the difficulty setting and this was later confirmed.

0badgesSend private message

Tigregalis

Newcomer

Tigregalis

Newcomer

10 years ago

Nov 4, 2014, 2:19:47 AM

Forests are special in the sense that they, along with coastal sea/lakes and rivers, have specific upgrades that increase the output there - they would have to be uniquely defined to allow for this interaction. Also, I can't confirm, but I can't recall whether I've seen any luxuries spawn on top of forests or rivers. My theory is that anomalies/ruins/villages/forests/rivers/lakes/strategics are "crowding out" luxury resources.

0badgesSend private message

Antistone

Ardent

Antistone

Ardent

10 years ago

Nov 3, 2014, 5:04:45 PM

What makes you think forests are a "special" tile? Based both on gameplay and on the little bit I looked at the world generator XML files, they look more like a basic terrain type to me.

0badgesSend private message

Tigregalis

Newcomer

Tigregalis

Newcomer

10 years ago

Nov 3, 2014, 12:35:41 PM

Hmm... questions...

1. Have you ever come across a luxury resource on a forest tile?

2. Have you ever come across a luxury resource on a river tile?

3. Have you ever come across a luxury resource on an anomaly tile?

The answer to 3 I'm fairly sure is definitely not. I can't remember when it comes to 1 and 2. It's possible the spawning of rivers and forests prevents the spawning of luxury resources if they can't both exist.

There could also be some sort of limit to the number of special tiles (luxuries, rivers, forests, anomalies, strategic, village, ruin) and when the generator reaches that limit, it stops producing special tiles: if luxury resources are late to spawn relative to other tiles, perhaps the generator will not produce them.

0badgesSend private message

Quueg

Newcomer

Quueg

Newcomer

10 years ago

Nov 3, 2014, 12:25:54 PM

I play on Large maps. When I make no other changes (except Large), everything seems to be fine.

But I recently tried also to increase the frequency of rivers (in addition to a Large map). No other changes. And I ended up with map after map without resources.

0badgesSend private message

Tigregalis

Newcomer

Tigregalis

Newcomer

10 years ago

Nov 3, 2014, 12:14:24 PM

I noticed something like that during one of my games too (all of the first four resources, only one of the second set)... I tend to change the settings on my games every time I play, so I didn't keep track of it, but... looking at the XML, it seems to be based on the size:

Endless Legend\Public\WorldGenerator\WorldGeneratorOptionDefinitions.xml:

[code]

50

30

6

9

...

70

50

9

8

...

90

60

12

7

...

100

70

15

6

...

120

80

15

5

[/code]

I could be reading it wrong, but it appears they only allow a set number of luxury resources to spawn (6, 9, 12 or 15).

That is an utterly bizarre way of doing things. Why would they exclude resources from spawning? I don't really understand why they've done that (if that's indeed what they've done).

Four options:

1) Work around it by playing on Large or Huge maps.

2) Brute-force fix it by changing the values in the WorldGeneratorOptionDefinitions.xml file.

3) Make a mod that supersedes the WorldGeneratorOptionDefinitions.xml file and activate it.

4) Assuming it isn't by design (if it is, please explain!), wait for Amplitude to address the problem in a future patch.

EDIT: Re-reading the OP though, it could also be a world generation issue based on the Chaotic option, not purely based on the options chosen (since the setting was Huge). If so, maybe the resulting shape of chaotic maps exclude the generation of luxury resources if the algorithm for the generation of luxury resources is based on its surrounding geography. Another possibility would be that MaxDifferentLuxuryTypes truly is the maximum, and the World Generator somehow decides how many types, below that number, it will spawn (potentially zero?).

You should post up your Save files though, so Amplitude can have a look.

0badgesSend private message

zupalex

Newcomer

zupalex

Newcomer

10 years ago

Nov 2, 2014, 11:20:46 PM

Then again I endend up playing on a map with only Dye available among all the 15 luxuries possible. What would actually be nice is that Amplitude at least aknoledge the issue because it makes the game quite unplayable...

0badgesSend private message

?

Click here to login

Reply

Comment

Characters : 0

0badgesSend private message

PostCancel