Defensive alliances, either in practical mechanics or simply adequately reflected in the AI´s behavior, would go a loooong way towards improving the diplomatic layers.



I´d say it would completely shift the value of Peace and the techs related to it from "barely worth it" to "essential".



edit: most tall builds in deity Civ5 would be impractical without defensive alliances.

Thank you to the original poster & for the Developers addressing this...such an important topic that, I think, plagues all 4X games...



Marc

Yeah, but the second option... would be hard to balance. Especially that Auriga is fond of 'her chilrden', no? So some natural 'walking disaster' would exactly be motherly. That's problem one. Problem two - what if this could destroy smaller factions? Make it focus on the strongest? Then staing in the middle would be optimal, but not sure if it would be this much fun. And entairly ignoring weaker factions is out of options, IMO.

icarus86 wrote:
+1, this would be awesome !

Though I'm not sure how much work this would involve, or whether Amplitude is willing to invest it in EL ...

But one can still hope, right ? ^^

And yet something like this needs to happen in order to bring some kind of excitement to the mid-late game.



AI empires get too comfortable during this period and are easily picked off by or ignore the huge threat that is consuming the other empires with impunity.



So either the empires start doing something about this or the world itself needs to. Personally, I'd rather a combination of both.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:


And yes, it would be nice to see AI empires band together against common threats. All too often I see huge empires emerging and threatening multiple others with no coordination whatsoever on their part.

+1, this would be awesome !

Though I'm not sure how much work this would involve, or whether Amplitude is willing to invest it in EL ...

But one can still hope, right ? ^^

wilbefast wrote:
We're working on some new attitude modifiers at the moment by the way :)

Oh, so there is a chance for changes in AI behaviour? Nice!



And I agree that it would be nice for this game to actually use the alliance for something more - as everyone said, being allied doesn't make AI to help you, which, really, contradicts the main reason for this. This and stopping, at least sometimes, rising super powers, who, unstopped, later can just role over the whole map to speed up victory.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
It was my wish that the Guardians expansion had Guardians not be buildable by factions, but instead appear at late game as ultra-powerful titans that run around and sow destruction, but alas this is not so.

Luckily Endless Legend can be moded :)

Slashman wrote:
The other option is for the world itself to provide obstacles and threats in the mid-late game aimed at those empires who are aggressively pursuing a particular victory type.



I'm a bit less in favor of this since it does not directly involve the other factions and may make things feel too isolated.



If Auriga itself began to spew out mutated high-level monsters or something similar, we could really have that sense of doom as we tried to reach our goals before the world itself consumed our civilization while it its death throws.

This is something that Pandora: First Contact (+ expansion) does and I am eager to try it out (I haven't yet). It actually has aliens prioritize the strongest faction, which makes sense. Sadly, as far as the main alien threat is concerned, it appears at an exact point of the game, so it will be repetitive and predictable after a few games.



Endless Legend does have the world create obstacles for you mid-late game in the form of harsher Winters, but there are many tools to bypass its effects (almost too many, in my view). It was my wish that the Guardians expansion had Guardians not be buildable by factions, but instead appear at late game as ultra-powerful titans that run around and sow destruction, but alas this is not so.

The other option is for the world itself to provide obstacles and threats in the mid-late game aimed at those empires who are aggressively pursuing a particular victory type.



I'm a bit less in favor of this since it does not directly involve the other factions and may make things feel too isolated.



If Auriga itself began to spew out mutated high-level monsters or something similar, we could really have that sense of doom as we tried to reach our goals before the world itself consumed our civilization while it its death throws.

OK so I've been playing several games of EL lately and I've been experiencing what others have been complaining about wrt to the press next turn syndrome in the late game as you either wait for your wonder to build or you wait for your scientific/economic victory to roll around.

I was wondering if this is the focus of any of the work/brainstorming going on for the next update. Do the Amplitude guys and girls have some kind of solution in mind for addressing this to any extent?

Ephraim wrote:
The main purpose of this is to turn isolated conflicts into grand scale war, which are much more interesting than local conflicts. It would also allow "weak factions" to find protection with others (Obviously there is a cost to such thing). This can lead to mutual interests between two factions, which enable strategies.

I enjoyed this in Civ, it wasn't so easy to gobble up the weakest factions when they had defensive pacts with someone powerful enough to fight back.

wilbefast wrote:
Hmmm... increase the desire for alliances based on the desire for war with a third party? Modulate the desire for war with empire A based on the desire for war with empire B (ie. the greater and lesser of two evils)? Hmm... Yes, this could be interesting...



We're working on some new attitude modifiers at the moment by the way :)

That's great to hear!

And yes, it would be nice to see AI empires band together against common threats. All too often I see huge empires emerging and threatening multiple others with no coordination whatsoever on their part.



@Ephraim



It existed in Galactic Civilizations 2 as well. It is delicious, as the Drath Legion, to (super) manipulate the Drengin and Yor to declare war on the Altarians, whose specialty involves dragging other factions of the same affinity in the war, thus sparking a galactic war and filling up your coffers.

wilbefast wrote:


Could you clarify what global wars and defensive pacts would be precisely?

Remember World War 1 and what it meant for allied countries ? France... *cough* Mère patrie *cough*



I believe this exists in Civilisation (?) and is a neat feature.



It's a diplomatic status implemented to copy what happened during world war I. Mainly, nations were so intertwined (?) together that :

- Being left out was exceedingly dangerous.

- A local conflict between 2 countries would result in the entirety of Europe being dragged into war.



The main purpose of this is to turn isolated conflicts into grand scale war, which are much more interesting than local conflicts. It would also allow "weak factions" to find protection with others (Obviously there is a cost to such thing). This can lead to mutual interests between two factions, which enable strategies.



Obviously, what suggested KnightofPhoenix would be the key.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
I also hope that the AI will eventually start to polarize into 2-3 alliances, especially to counter a rising superpower. So far, alliances don't act as actual alliances, and I have never seen an AI empire come to the aid of its ally (whether another AI or a player). It would make diplomacy more dynamic, esp for mid-late game, which in turn would make the game more 'alive.'

Hmmm... increase the desire for alliances based on the desire for war with a third party? Modulate the desire for war with empire A based on the desire for war with empire B (ie. the greater and lesser of two evils)? Hmm... Yes, this could be interesting...



We're working on some new attitude modifiers at the moment by the way :)

Ephraim wrote:
This, and Global Wars. How about being able to make defensive pacts ? Necrophages would be screwed though...

Could you clarify what global wars and defensive pacts would be precisely?

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
I also hope that the AI will eventually start to polarize into 2-3 alliances, especially to counter a rising superpower. So far, alliances don't act as actual alliances, and I have never seen an AI empire come to the aid of its ally (whether another AI or a player). It would make diplomacy more dynamic, esp for mid-late game, which in turn would make the game more 'alive.'

This, and Global Wars. How about being able to make defensive pacts ? Necrophages would be screwed though...

wilbefast wrote:
Well we are looking into ways to make the AI interact more in the mid- to late-game. Currently as frontiers stabilise and empire become entrenched the AI will tend to ease off aggressive manoeuvres.

I also hope that the AI will eventually start to polarize into 2-3 alliances, especially to counter a rising superpower. So far, alliances don't act as actual alliances, and I have never seen an AI empire come to the aid of its ally (whether another AI or a player). It would make diplomacy more dynamic, esp for mid-late game, which in turn would make the game more 'alive.'

Slashman wrote:
OK so I've been playing several games of EL lately and I've been experiencing what others have been complaining about wrt to the press next turn syndrome in the late game as you either wait for your wonder to build or you wait for your scientific/economic victory to roll around.



I was wondering if this is the focus of any of the work/brainstorming going on for the next update. Do the Amplitude guys and girls have some kind of solution in mind for addressing this to any extent?

Well we are looking into ways to make the AI interact more in the mid- to late-game. Currently as frontiers stabilise and empire become entrenched the AI will tend to ease off aggressive manoeuvres.