NorthRadio wrote:
I'm against removing the teleport, but having it cost the holy resource I think would 'balance' them. Such as .5 per tile distance being teleported for example, for this could quickly deplete the resouce they need for best military effects and much of thier building cost.

I don't think you can fix anything by making the holy resource more expensive (including adding additional costs to things like teleports)-- you just make it more and more important to maximize strategic collection. Either you make it expensive enough that it's functionally out of reach, or you just drive Vaulters toward an increasingly one-dimensional game of resource accumulation. Neither is very fun.



But I agree that the teleport has become somewhat of a Vaulter thing, and I don't think it'd be too cool to just take it away. Nerfing approval would be a lot more acceptable to most players. (Although you could also tone down the teleport-- make it require all MP instead of just using up the remainder, for instance, or limiting the distance.)

JetJaguar wrote:
Which faction (in single-player) is the opposite of this (strong early game; weakest late game)? Strong early game/weakest late game would be perfect against the AI because the harder difficulty settings hurt most during early game; and then are overcome by mid-to-late game. Thanks in advance.

Almost any faction can be played in this fashion, but Wild Walkers are probably the best at it. Still, I don't think their early advantage means much against Endless difficulty AI, because the WW would still be taking significant casualties.



Drakken would be better at it, thanks to the resilience of their initial units and their initial hero. Broken Lords are good, but only once they get Dust Bishops going, which doesn't happen until tier 2, when I've seen endless AI declare war on turn 16, normal speed.



I don't think Cultists can do it, and Ardent Mages are pretty slow out of the gate as well.

- Vaulters are very overpowered. Ardent's Mages too, due to the stun spell & zealots. Topic about Vaulters Overpowering feedback in multiplayer is and propositions to nerf them is here : Link.

Wow Just played a while with the Vaulters, I can't believe they can teleport EVERYWHERE every turn at no cost :O

This is way OP because if they conquer a Village close to you, it's game over! They can teleport the units they build

there and keep advancing, how are you going to stop this?



I think this ability needs like a long cool down or cost Holy resource to cast or something...



@Propbuddha I didn't say no nerfing...I said I don't want to see the Devs play Wack-a-mole like

in LoL where EVERY PATCH is a laundry list of NERFS, seriously wth are they doing over there IoI



@JetJaguar You have the coolest name ever! but pls don't use my avatar because now I have an

identity crisis XD

If it's so late in the game that we're slinging mithrite around, then broken lords are raking in tens of thousands of dust and vomiting self-repairing ghost robots at you, and if you're selling off that many resources to the market then the Roving Clans player is raking in money, and resources are cheaper for everyone else to buy, so a much larger portion of those broken lords are wearing mithrite too.



Meanwhile the Drakken at that stage of the game has been permanent friends with everyone for the last 100 turns. He's rush researched the diplomatic booster tech and is about 5 turns away for winning by friendship.



The Cultists have a city that spans an entire region and have taken four of the other capital cities, you have to keep your capital guarded at all times or they'll run in and burn it to the ground, or hell maybe they took your capital first, and despite your empire's strength winning the game depends on them not getting someone else's city.



Oh and the Roving Clans have an alliance with the drakken, who they are on the other side of, and the forced alliance and closed borders with the drakken prevents you from getting to them without taking a 30 turn detour around an ocean.



You've been wasting so much time on a now mostly impotent military that you haven't been pushing tech research and there's no way you'll get the science victory before the drakken bring world peace, the cultists become the capital city of the planet, the walkers slave labor their way into building a tower to god or the broken lords produce enough money to buy the damn place.

Heavy wrote:
You need 8 cities before the expansion disapproval reduction is better than wine.

Unless I'm mistaken, you need 5 cities before it's better than wine (+30 approval from wine, -40 expansion disapproval at 5 cities)-- but wine is an incredible boon, so even "only as good as wine" is pretty awesome, especially without any tech or extractor investment, and there's no reason you can't have wine + vaulter holy resource going at the same time to be fervent everywhere, without any investment in +approval techs or improvements.



edit: I was mistaken-- expansion disapproval bonus really is a percentage of expansion disapproval, confusing since approval itself is measured in percent.

pineappledan wrote:
Biggest problem is the disapproval negation on holy resource. The vaulter's can use strategic resources (which are in much higher supply than individual luxuries) as a bonus with a stronger effect on approval than any luxury. I would take -50% expansion disapproval over any of the other luxury effects any day. And that's ignoring the luxury's boost granting teleportation and +50% stats on equipment



The whole idea of a mechanic which aides in expansion seems to go against their backstory as well. The Vaulters are a race of reclusive, pseudo-dwarven people, whose quest line is unique in that it is the only one which contains a retreat from Auriga instead of mastery over it. So why do they get the strongest buff to expansion in the game? They should be all about defending their borders, taking what they need and getting the hell out of dodge.



Possible fixes I can see would be making teleport cost dust or another resource, preventing teleport to places which you do not control 100% (can't conquer a place and immediately teleport in another army). removal of the -50% disapproval on holy resource.

You need 8 cities before the expansion disapproval reduction is better than wine.

What about adding a significant cooldown to teleport use? That would cause the Vaulter player to think very carefully before sending an army halfway across their empire, but it would still be very useful to counter sneak attacks.

My bigger problem with the Vaulters are the rate at which they can generate holy resources. Sure, a lot of upgrades cost holy resource, but with the basic affinity, the 2x times resource generation in winter and extreme yields, it just becomes ridiculous.



I like having the Vaulters being focused on strategic resources - it is a nice, unique affinity. However, once mid-game hits, you are generally selling most of your resources, and the moment you get low on one you just boost that one resource up again, especially if it is winter.



I would love playing the Vaulters with more resource constraints - where you have to change your strategy (and which holy resource you choose the most) based on whatever resource is the most abundant. In addition, having resource constraints will force you to have a only a few power units (which can actually be fully equipped with your holy resource) in an army, and only two or three power cities (for which you build holy resource buildings).



The easiest nerf to get to this situation would just be to reduce the potency of some of the Vaulter techs and affinities - remove the 2x resource generation in winter, and reduce the strategic resource modifier from Extreme yields.

pineappledan wrote:
Biggest problem is the disapproval negation on holy resource. The vaulter's can use strategic resources (which are in much higher supply than individual luxuries) as a bonus with a stronger effect on approval than any luxury. I would take -50% expansion disapproval over any of the other luxury effects any day. And that's ignoring the luxury's boost granting teleportation and +50% stats on equipment



The whole idea of a mechanic which aides in expansion seems to go against their backstory as well. The Vaulters are a race of reclusive, pseudo-dwarven people, whose quest line is unique in that it is the only one which contains a retreat from Auriga instead of mastery over it. So why do they get the strongest buff to expansion in the game? They should be all about defending their borders, taking what they need and getting the hell out of dodge.

Agree 100% with this.

Biggest problem is the disapproval negation on holy resource. The vaulter's can use strategic resources (which are in much higher supply than individual luxuries) as a bonus with a stronger effect on approval than any luxury. I would take -50% expansion disapproval over any of the other luxury effects any day. And that's ignoring the luxury's boost granting teleportation and +50% stats on equipment



The whole idea of a mechanic which aides in expansion seems to go against their backstory as well. The Vaulters are a race of reclusive, pseudo-dwarven people, whose quest line is unique in that it is the only one which contains a retreat from Auriga instead of mastery over it. So why do they get the strongest buff to expansion in the game? They should be all about defending their borders, taking what they need and getting the hell out of dodge.



Possible fixes I can see would be making teleport cost dust or another resource, preventing teleport to places which you do not control 100% (can't conquer a place and immediately teleport in another army). removal of the -50% disapproval on holy resource.

this is outside of winter, and i've played this whole game really half assed. how is this balanced LOL? coupled with the technolover bonuses i have lv 8 marines hitting for 445 dmg with 365 attack which basically guarantees a hit because who stacks THAT much defense, with a shield cuz x+hyperium shield is arguably always better than 2h unless you want flying slayer.

i can basically permasell my strategic resources to marketplace and make ridiculous amounts of money and nobody can touch me because i can just buy whole armies with t3 mithrite gear for nothing relative to my money and teleport them wherever i need them. how is this race even vaguely balanced? if you don't get rid of them early game (good luck with that) and they're a competent player you lose, and fighting them is really hard because nothing has enough movement to not get kited by range units, AND early game full glassteel units are broken

pls no counterpoint by saying "but wild walkers get +50% attack/defense in forest tiles!!" 50% to EVERY stat from holy resource on gear is way better and way more flexible especially since lategame gear is a very large portion of your stats on units, and they have dawn officers which are made for killing ranged units

o well. discuss. i haven't found many people who are really good at the game so i'm up for a balance discussion

oh and for reference i have four cities with mithrite, each with one deposit. so, four mithrite deposits = 91.5 mithrite per turn. sick balance.

natev wrote:
Yeah, I just don't see how you could buff, say, Cultists to be competitive with Vaulters without introducing new (and thus poorly tested) mechanics. EDIT: I think that a good start for balancing Vaulters would be to remove either the teleport or the holy approval bonus.



I'm not sure I've ever had a game (since strategic frequency nerf) where I've had four mithrite deposits.

I'm against removing the teleport, but having it cost the holy resource I think would 'balance' them. Such as .5 per tile distance being teleported for example, for this could quickly deplete the resouce they need for best military effects and much of thier building cost.

nJohan wrote:
While its true that Vaulters are strong, they are quite weak early game, so if you bump up the difficulty to endless and have lets say drakken near, pray they dont attack you right away :-D

In multiplayer, yes they tend to be strong, but they are not impossible to deal with by any means.

Which faction (in single-player) is the opposite of this (strong early game; weakest late game)? Strong early game/weakest late game would be perfect against the AI because the harder difficulty settings hurt most during early game; and then are overcome by mid-to-late game. Thanks in advance.

ynd wrote:


this is outside of winter, and i've played this whole game really half assed. how is this balanced LOL? coupled with the technolover bonuses i have lv 8 marines hitting for 445 dmg with 365 attack which basically guarantees a hit because who stacks THAT much defense, with a shield cuz x+hyperium shield is arguably always better than 2h unless you want flying slayer.

i can basically permasell my strategic resources to marketplace and make ridiculous amounts of money and nobody can touch me because i can just buy whole armies with t3 mithrite gear for nothing relative to my money and teleport them wherever i need them. how is this race even vaguely balanced? if you don't get rid of them early game (good luck with that) and they're a competent player you lose, and fighting them is really hard because nothing has enough movement to not get kited by range units, AND early game full glassteel units are broken

pls no counterpoint by saying "but wild walkers get +50% attack/defense in forest tiles!!" 50% to EVERY stat from holy resource on gear is way better and way more flexible especially since lategame gear is a very large portion of your stats on units, and they have dawn officers which are made for killing ranged units

o well. discuss. i haven't found many people who are really good at the game so i'm up for a balance discussion

oh and for reference i have four cities with mithrite, each with one deposit. so, four mithrite deposits = 91.5 mithrite per turn. sick balance.

While its true that Vaulters are strong, they are quite weak early game, so if you bump up the difficulty to endless and have lets say drakken near, pray they dont attack you right away :-D

In multiplayer, yes they tend to be strong, but they are not impossible to deal with by any means.

Yeah, I just don't see how you could buff, say, Cultists to be competitive with Vaulters without introducing new (and thus poorly tested) mechanics. EDIT: I think that a good start for balancing Vaulters would be to remove either the teleport or the holy approval bonus.



I'm not sure I've ever had a game (since strategic frequency nerf) where I've had four mithrite deposits.

OP - Can you post your save? What settings are you using? If you have your Mithrite production up and going, I imagine you are late in the game.



Most are in agreement the the Vaulters are strong currently, especially late game. You have identified the reason.



@Kuroenko - The "no nerf" balancing philosophy is appropriate in situations where the majority of the factions/characters are OK and a couple are weak. Do you feel that is the case in Endless Legend? Do you feel messing with most of the factions/characters so that a few can stay at the same power is a sane approach to balancing?

I don't play the Vaulters, but I don't want this to become like League of Legends where there's just nerfs every patch!

This game doesn't need to be balanced for the professional elite players so if there's going to be changes just boost

everyone else ok!



I just want to have fun with every faction and not watch the devs play wack-a-mole to oblivion...

Hello friend.



- I am agree with you. I posted my observations and propositions about Vaulters here : Link.



- I explained arguments in this topic, but even without argument, to me it should be obvious for any experienced player that Vaulters are very overpowered into the hands of a competitive multiplayer guy. Super output with trendemous ressources, and can be hyper offensive without risk, by the Teleport power.



- You could too comments our propositions/critics in this topic if you want.



- PS : I thinked Mithrite was a very rare ressources. You should not find so much ressources in closed regions. Maybe is there a bug, or you got a super luck. But it does not look me normal or just.

Invite me on steam kacperkrzeminski i cant find you. Try to win with me.