Frogsquadron wrote:
Just to clarify after my previous post: at the end of the Great Balance Pass of November we had mentioned we didn't want to touch the Forgotten yet, since they had only recently been added to the game, and we wanted to see how all other changes shook out before changing anything to them.



This means that we will be taking a look at the Forgotten with the next update, with the view to strengthen their early game in particular. We have some material and suggestions aside already, but that shouldn't stop anyone from making suggestions.



Keep in mind however that:

- We want to keep the faction's identity intact (we're not about to change who they are)

- Whatever changes will most likely be XML values

- If you want to make suggestions, keep them concise and to the point. While we appreciate a well-supported argument, it will be a lot easier for Kaboomer and Willbefast to look at your proposals and evaluate them against one another if you stay brief.

That's great to hear!



Perhaps we can do what we did before November, where we put everything in the balance section.

TheDeadDude wrote:
The players i play with have era two empire plans by turn 10

I´d just like to point out this is barely possible with factions that not Drakken, obviously, Ardent Mages, Vaulters and Forgotten; and it´s still pretty hard with the last three to get both enough techs and influence, not to mention not very smart with forgotten.



I am in favour of small buffs, like I´ve said before. I´m looking forward for the next patch.

Balkoth wrote:
1, does everyone just declare war as soon as they meet? In the so-called Civ V "teamers" that's the "standard practice" for the "hardcore."

2, if not, is peace ever negotiated?

3, is anything negotiated? Like, if I picked Roving Clans, would I just instantly Market Ban anyone I meet and refuse to remove it? Or maybe only remove it for an exorbitant price?

4, along those lines, while I imagine tech trading isn't allowed, what about other resources? Say I want 5 Palladian and there's none on the market (or I've been banned from the market) and I have none in my territory. Can I attempt to bargain for that 5 Palladian or is my only choice to conquer/settle a region with it?

5, are empires spread out or neighbors? In other words, does everyone have their own empire of multiple regions with several empty regions between them and the next empire or are borders generally touching past the early game? If you're wondering "Why does this matter?" I'm thinking of several reasons, which include the ability to have trade routes with other empires (either through Peace/Alliance or the Roving Clans governor Black Marketeer trait) or to settle in regions for resources you don't happen to have later in the game.

People are in general much nicer than your average strategy mp, which is funny considering how military el is. The things you mentioned will vary with each game and player, but people will tend to gang up on annoying Roving Clans like that. ^^

Tech trading between players is not at all forbidden, just not always the best choice. Good players who tend to be in the lead might find it annyoing as hell, but it´s still very much a part of the game and one of the few instances in which diplomacy pays off.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
In any case, the thread is not about discussing and comparing strategies. It is about balance suggestions, so let's try to stick to that. I agree with the general spirit behind your suggestions.

Well, as it turns out, discussing and comparing strategies wound up being important because...

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
EDIT: I should also mention that I do not play with Guardian activated, as I am not a fan of its content.

Yeah. That means you have no Canal Locks. That means you have no Dust Transmuter. That means you have no National Craftsworks. That means you have no Customs House. Obviously also means you don't have Museum or Megapole which are both huge, but more "nice to have." You're literally playing a different game -- the core of my strategy is a "economic" city with the Craftsworks (doubling the strength of Glassilk and ideally Dustwater/Dust Orchid) and Customs House (7 extra trade routes) both of which provide a massive Dust boost in the mid to late game. And you usually use the Dust Transmuter as a kickstarter for your economy. And you use the Canal Locks for massive early game production. But...you don't have any of those.



You will never see that 43k income on one city without Guardians -- the whole point is to combine like 10 different multipliers that all come together for the big payoff. Peaceful Forgotten is designed to take advantage of the insane Dust scaling late-game to make up for the slow early game...and you lack critical parts of that late game Dust scaling.

5. Boost Forgotten espionage. Spies should gain infiltration levels faster, as a faction trait (perhaps immediately start with seniority 5 or something). Which makes sense, as they would have access to spying networks that other factions wouldn't have.

to be supplemented by an innate seniority bonus when infiltrating, to acquire infiltration levels faster.

some kind of buff that actually makes the Forgotten faction the best spy faction.

Reducing influence costs for tech stealing or spy actions in general for the Forgotten would be a much better solution.

Lower the chance of local detection when a spy steal a tech. Stealing tech is the main feature of forgottens to progress in technology.

+1 for the above suggestions.



I'm not sure I agree with the rest.

Also, for some points, I can't say that I entirely comprehend the degree in which they would affect the overall meta-game ...

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
But it needs, imo, to be supplemented by an innate seniority bonus when infiltrating, to acquire infiltration levels faster.

Welllllll...

Balkoth wrote:
4, some kind of buff that actually makes the Forgotten faction the best spy faction. Forgotten *spies* are great, but every faction can use them. Even if it's something as "minor" as "All heroes acting as spies get +5 'eyes'" or whatever that's called for "level progress."

Balkoth wrote:
Reducing influence costs for tech stealing or spy actions in general for the Forgotten would be a much better solution.

Yes, you're right. That is a more straight forward solution.



But it needs, imo, to be supplemented by an innate seniority bonus when infiltrating, to acquire infiltration levels faster.

I repeat my list of suggestions (pick what you want), coming from my experience of thousands of hours of playing in Civilization IV, others 4X, and 1800 hours in Endless Legend in competitive game mostly...

Jojo_Fr wrote:
What is very important it's to renforce the ability to forgottens players to use earlier and stronger their naturel ability (which are very enjoying : spying with tech stealing, and pillaging). Here are few selectable others ideas which to mind :



- First hired hero for forgottens only cost 50 % of his normal hiring price.

- One more hero won in the early forgotten quest, after the 2 predator quest moment (I don't like much this idea because the RP is broken, and because some people don't like to follow quest).



- Pillage action is quicker (+30 % faster) and give higher dust reward in era 1 and era 2 especially (where it's too low for the troops investissement and risk). Encourage early pillaging action, because why sending a force far away if you have a mearger reward ? If the ennemy can intercept fast and destroy it ? If the upkeep of troops is nearly more than the dust reward...



To apply this idea I propose that : the first exploration rank of forgottens empire plan give +50 % dust reward for pillage (because for forgottens, exploration means raid lol). Exploration empire plan is rarely used by players, especially the first level.



- The forgottens has a new feature, the possibility to pillage an entire city. To do this they need to conquier it. From the moment they have did it, they can start an action (in the city bar). This action long last 3 turns. After 3 turns, the action did that : they gain a fix bonus of 300 dust + 100 dust per population point, they gain a dust reward corresping to the buildings inside the city. But after that, population point is halved, buildings and extractors are halved (from randomness). The city get back to the original owner.



The idea behind this, it's for now, forgottens have in some situation, NO interest to capture a city even if they can. Because it's better to grow on extractors etc. than taking the city. But that is not logical and strange. Taking a city should give access to some ressources, more than wandering in the city campaign. It does not destroy because it is not in their nature, and cultist already have that feature.



- Lower the chance of local detection when a spy steal a tech. Stealing tech is the main feature of forgottens to progress in technology. It does not hurt the other civ, but it hurt your influence and your seniority. I think the detection chance should be lowered (it's more about the idea of learning and observing, than a violent commando which open gates to the ennemy, so it should not be so easily detected).



- Give to Forgottens more items for their hero : For exemple :



* Mithrite Helmet "Helmet of the cameleon" : -50 % of seniority loose when you use an action. (mithrite is very late game so it should not break the game...).

* Hyperirum Ring "National network" : A spy exfiltrated and infiltrated in a a city of the same civ in the same turn, keep 50 % of the seniority.

* Palladium armor "False death" : The player which finished a round up, has a probability of 25 % to have a false information of "The spy has been hurted and is get back to academy". This is very vicious...

* Adamantium Amulet "Dormant network" : The player has each turn a small chance (5%) to passively obtain informations about the ennemy. Informations are : visions of armies, see what happens in another city for one turn, small things liek that, all for one turn, but interesting and exciting to obtain...





To counter these possibles applicables ideas, I think it would better to have new buildings to limit the spying effect. Buildings anti spy and anti pillage comes too late today, and are not much usefull because round up are enough effectives if your happiness is correct. But this is another question...







I don't think my ideas will interest someone but maybe a modder if the question of the poors forgottens interest a modder.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
I suggest Army Boost 3

There is literally no hero with Army Boost 3 that I know of, that's probably going a bit overboard. But her lacking anything but Fast Learner is definitely an issue, yes. She needs something.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
Or reduction of how must tech dust cost increases from tech to tech.

This has two issues:



1, the current cost is based on Science cost, so this would require new formulas.



2, it wouldn't make much impact early game but be a significant boost late game...and late game is what we don't want to boost.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
6. Give starting hero Influence boost 2 in addition to her dust boost 2. It will help the Forgotten early game with both dust as well as save a bit of influence for early spying.

As I think I mentioned before, this is also a straight buff to economic play as well. Makes it easier to maintain empire plans (can be anything from "free" +25 approval to better trade routes to better/cheaper military meaning more effort can go into economy) and can afford to do deals with the AI more easily. Reducing influence costs for tech stealing or spy actions in general for the Forgotten would be a much better solution.

lolplayer101 wrote:
issue 1: the prices of the tech, which very much favors (almost forces) you to steal the tech, which in the beginning is very hard to do with only the limited amount of heroes you have UNTIL you finish the main quest. which brings me to the second issue.

Hmm...see, my main point in this thread has been that the reverse is true -- that it winds up being cheaper and easier to just buy techs rather than steal them. The problem is that you have to know how to get and maintain a good economy in order to accomplish this result. We don't want a situation where typical players struggle and find something weak while more advanced players think it's balanced...and we also don't want a situation where typical players think something is balanced while more advanced players think it's overpowered. And a key point is that neither side is "wrong" here -- their conclusion is based on their skill level and at a particular skill level each person may very well be correct (an economy that is perfectly fine for Mezari/Drakken/Cultists/etc on Normal may lead to Forgotten being too weak while an economy expected of Mezari/Drakken/Cultists/etc on Endless may lead to Forgotten being too strong).

lolplayer101 wrote:
issue 2: the main story is too difficult.

I will, however, agree with this. Especially in single-player, trying to do the main story will simply slow down your victory. Sometimes I do it anyway for variety and fun, but it doesn't actually help me (and in fact hurts me slightly).

i have just finished my very first "complete" playthrough with them. i had already played around with them a little but after this game i have to say they definitely are not be messed around with. so far i have come across 2 issues but that is it.



issue 1: the prices of the tech, which very much favors (almost forces) you to steal the tech, which in the beginning is very hard to do with only the limited amount of heroes you have UNTIL you finish the main quest. which brings me to the second issue.



issue 2: the main story is too difficult. it needs you to mess too much in enemy territory. and the ending battles are too much. i needed 2 armies (6units each with hero) fully upgraded to kill each opposing armies (the last 3 quests).



but other then that it was seriously great and on normal difficulty they were definitely no pushovers. great faction! a WHOLE lott better then the cultists. though i like them in the story/lore and as opponent to mix things up.

I'll repost my suggestions, in case they got lost in the jargon:



1. Very slight hp boost to the Assassin, as in +6-8 or so. The reason being is that Assassins are a bit too fragile early game. A small hp boost wouldn't change the nature of the unit or its role, but it would make the early game less stressful.



2. Slight increase in Forgotten units' raiding power. Their units should be inherently better pillagers. It, of course, should not be to the point where a lone assassin can pillage a village in one turn. But it should be so that you don't need to send massive armies to pillage quickly and effectively. It would make pillaging swifter and thus more immediately rewarding.



3. I personally like Zeima and I think it's worth getting her and having her recover. That said, once she recovers, she only has Fast Learner and no traits to improve units. I suggest Army Boost 3 or Army damage boost 3 or Army damage boost 2 / Army initiative boost 2. It also suits her biography and character.



4. Indirectly help the Forgotten dust economy. Unit upkeep cost reduction and / or Forgotten hero hiring cost reduction and / or hero upkeep reduction and / or spying upkeep reduction. Or reduction of how must tech dust cost increases from tech to tech.



5. Boost Forgotten espionage. Spies should gain infiltration levels faster, as a faction trait (perhaps immediately start with seniority 5 or something). Which makes sense, as they would have access to spying networks that other factions wouldn't have.



6. Give starting hero Influence boost 2 in addition to her dust boost 2. It will help the Forgotten early game with both dust as well as save a bit of influence for early spying.



7. Since their counter-espionage tech costs dust and makes everything else more expensive, it needs to be +20 security as opposed to +10.

Re-quoting this since while it goes without saying, it goes better being said:

Frogsquadron wrote:


Keep in mind however that:

- We want to keep the faction's identity intact (we're not about to change who they are)

- Whatever changes will most likely be XML values

- If you want to make suggestions, keep them concise and to the point. While we appreciate a well-supported argument, it will be a lot easier for Kaboomer and Willbefast to look at your proposals and evaluate them against one another if you stay brief.

Also, please remain civil. A big reason so many players are willing to offer feedback is that we are a welcoming, level-headed community. Let's keep it that way.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
And based on your suggestions, we agree on the essence of what these boosts should be.

In the interest of staying on topic, fair enough.

Which is a large reason why I dislike Guardians. I think it becomes excessive.



In any case, I think the Forgotten can still get small buffs that would encourage how they are meant to be played, in ways that would be applicable to both with or without guardians. And based on your suggestions, we agree on the essence of what these boosts should be.

Frogsquadron wrote:
Just to clarify after my previous post: at the end of the Great Balance Pass of November we had mentioned we didn't want to touch the Forgotten yet, since they had only recently been added to the game, and we wanted to see how all other changes shook out before changing anything to them.



This means that we will be taking a look at the Forgotten with the next update, with the view to strengthen their early game in particular. We have some material and suggestions aside already, but that shouldn't stop anyone from making suggestions.



Keep in mind however that:

- We want to keep the faction's identity intact (we're not about to change who they are)

- Whatever changes will most likely be XML values

- If you want to make suggestions, keep them concise and to the point. While we appreciate a well-supported argument, it will be a lot easier for Kaboomer and Willbefast to look at your proposals and evaluate them against one another if you stay brief.

Its good to hear that something will be done



+forgotten needs a better espionage system

+forgotten needs a tiny boost to dust production. Influence costs for infiltration and infiltration actions cost too much gimping your early game empire plans. We need more influence production or less spy influence costs.

+since forgotten units are so low hp they need something to regenerate health even 5% is enough. Being survivalists this suits the lore to the faction too as they live in the harsh wasteland. [thisbenefitsspiestoo]

+forgotten heroes should be slightly cheaper

Balkoth wrote:
When exactly do you hire them? If it's in Era I, you're losing the ability to do Era II benefits on the first Empire Plan most likely. If it's in Era II, you're setting yourself back basically an entire tech just by hiring the new hero...plus losing Dust income on your city from your starting hero. The Forgotten economy is just so tight early game it seems difficult to justify hiring new heroes (though replacing your hero and putting the starting hero on the Market isn't as bad) until Era III in most cases unless you're trying to do (or expect) serious military action.

By era 3, I already have a cultist and wild walker governors, in addition to Zeima and the starting hero. I've had no problem whatsoever doing so, without having a dust rich start. Many of my expenses are covered by pillaging (with dust sense which I buy) and exploration.



I get a cultist governor around Era 2 (if Ozek is on the market. If not, I prioritize Wayra Sigo. If he isn't there, then it depends on my starting regions), where I've already started stealing tech so I am not losing on a tech at all. And I believe this is the crux of the matter. Early spying for the Forgotten is viable now, and it should be encouraged and made even more potent.



I of course understand this strategy is less viable in multiplayer, as pillaging and spying are relatively easy to counter. Hence why I think both should be boosted.



EDIT: I should also mention that I do not play with Guardian activated, as I am not a fan of its content.



In any case, the thread is not about discussing and comparing strategies. It is about balance suggestions, so let's try to stick to that. I agree with the general spirit behind your suggestions.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
I prefer investing in spying skills for the starting hero and hire a cultist governor, preferably Ozek the Chosen, or Wayra Sigo, who are much better governors and a better long term investment (taking into consideration that I play on large maps with 8 empires).

But yes, my argument does rely on early espionage being viable and more immediately rewarding.

When exactly do you hire them? If it's in Era I, you're losing the ability to do Era II benefits on the first Empire Plan most likely. If it's in Era II, you're setting yourself back basically an entire tech just by hiring the new hero...plus losing Dust income on your city from your starting hero. The Forgotten economy is just so tight early game it seems difficult to justify hiring new heroes (though replacing your hero and putting the starting hero on the Market isn't as bad) until Era III in most cases unless you're trying to do (or expect) serious military action.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
And by all you means, if you have any suggestions on how to boost the Forgotten, do share them.

I did share two ideas here: /#/endless-legend/forum/5-general/thread/2799-how-to-fix-forgotten-faction



Other ideas would include...



1, tech steals don't actually cost influence (just infiltration cost, other spy actions cost influence)



2, tech stealing starts with Era II at spy level 2 and scales up with Era III at 3, Era IV at 4, and Era V at 5. I mean, seriously, it's massively cheaper just to buy Era I techs, I don't see why you'd ever steal one. This might actually wind up being too much of a buff, need to think it over more, just throwing ideas out there. Just takes so long to start stealing any techs in the first place right now that it's practically useless to use for getting through Era II.



3, heroes are cheaper to hire, by 50% or something. Or maybe Forgotten heroes only are cheaper.



4, some kind of buff that actually makes the Forgotten faction the best spy faction. Forgotten *spies* are great, but every faction can use them. Even if it's something as "minor" as "All heroes acting as spies get +5 'eyes'" or whatever that's called for "level progress."



5, pillaging innately gives more (like Dust Sense or even stronger) for the Forgotten without having to research a tech for it.



I'm sure I'll think of some more and add them later, just dashing this off quickly.

Balkoth wrote:


Or...you keep the starting hero as governor since, in most cases, they'll be a huge part of your income (which you need for luxuries, strategics, new heroes, upkeep, etc even if you try to buy zero tech)...and hire new spies. We'll see, I suppose, since your argument relies (as far as I can tell) on spying (specifically, early tech stealing) to be boosted as well, so we can't really test it right now.

I prefer investing in spying skills for the starting hero and hire a cultist governor, preferably Ozek the Chosen, or Wayra Sigo, who are much better governors and a better long term investment (taking into consideration that I play on large maps with 8 empires).

But yes, my argument does rely on early espionage being viable and more immediately rewarding.



And by all you means, if you have any suggestions on how to boost the Forgotten, do share them.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
Yes, I think a slight HP boost or a defence boost is consistent in the early game without it undermining the mid-late game, when Assassins become potent. The scenario I described, whereby Assassins would have had a stronger chance of survival early game if they had a bit more HP, was all too common in my experience.

I'm not convinced that a 5%ish HP boost for the Assassin would really make a difference early game...but by that logic I can't really argue against it either.



(Well, I could if I thought Amplitude was going to say "Okay then, 5% HP boost to Assassin and the Forgotten are golden!" but I don't think that)

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
That is quite situational. I can see the benefits of a Forgotten governor in a heavily forested area (which is not guaranteed), but in the scenario where early spying is boosted and encouraged (by for instance, an innate seniority and / or reduced spying upkeep), there would be at least as much incentive to get her to spy early after an initial period of governance. There is also added incentive to spy early through the faction quest (which is also why I think Zeima needs a boost, to make following through the quest more interesting).

It's not guaranteed, but The Forgotten seem to have a bias for Forests (just like Mezari/Vaulters have a bias for science areas, Broken Lords have a bias for Dust areas, etc). And even if you start in a non-forested area, you might be settling a new city in a forested area too. My point is that her innate Dust Boost and +5 Dust from Forest tiles (plus the usual Inspirational Leader/Winter Immunity stuff) make her a more solid governor than you give her credit for -- in large part because you start with her on Turn 1. It's probably cheaper to keep her as Governor and hire a new hero to spy, frankly -- I literally dropped like 200 Dust income in one game when I switched over (had like 15 Forest tiles with a level 8ish hero and a rank or two of Inspirational Leader) to Roving Clans (who became massively better but was an initial setback).

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
The suggestions I make should preferably be taken as a whole. I agree that, all else being equal, an influence boost on the starting hero is not going to change much, unless spying and following through the faction quest become more interesting prospects.

Uh, my point was more that extra Influence from the starting governor would be an example of a buff that also gave a large advantage to peaceful/economic play. I could get Era II empire plans without having to pull citizens off Industry, for example, it would be a direct buff to industry initially (and make it easy to maintain tier 2 for Military and Science, for example).

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
Which is, at the end of the day, what I think needs to be done. Instead of penalising or limiting alternative ways of playing, we should make their "main" playstyle more interesting.

I agree...but I'm also trying to avoid the "alternative way" of playing from becoming too powerful in the name of buffing their "main playstyle."

Avilyss wrote:
I just thought of another tip that people may not know, since we're on the topic of Forgotten governors...the ability of a Forgotten governor to draw Dust from forest tiles is NOT considered when making things like the Dust Transmuter that adds +10 Dust to tiles with Dust. The Dust Transmuter and things similar to it, only affect tiles with a natural Dust output (or a Dust ouput gained through research).

It actually doesn't affect Dust Output gained through research. If you have a four food river tile (three base food, one from river), then the Dust Dredger thing that adds 2 Dust on rivers won't become 12 with Transmuter. Everything like this (Forgotten governor, Broken Lords governor, Dust Transmuter, Dust Revitalizer, Automated Processing, Fertilizer, etc) all use the base tile only. Which is why a tile with zero Industry naturally and one Industry with Apprenticeship Registry doesn't become four Industry with Automated Processing.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
You're right. That would be another argument against settling in heavily forested areas and relying on a Forgotten governor for the long term (As in by era 3), unless you are really lucky and have a river going through.

I don't think the river makes as much of a difference as you think. And dust heavy areas often are either science heavy (bad tiles) or desert (often less than three base yield). While the Forgotten governor tree itself is really "only" +5 Dust on forest tiles...that's still a powerful three points (compare it to Broken Lords +3 Dust on tiles with Dust) and forested regions provide high Food/Industry. And some Forgotten Governors have two governing capacities which is really nice (there's both Dust Boost 2/Influence Boost 2 and Dust Boost 2/Dust Efficiency 2).



You also only get one Dust Transmuter and Dust Revitalizer is an Era V tech that costs 30 Glassteel and 5 Mithrite too, so might not be able to reasonably afford that in every city. And if you've made it to Era V as Forgotten then a Customs House with a Roving Clans governor will probably be your main source of income.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
Forgotten governors can be decent early game, but I think if spying is boosted, it would make transitioning them to infiltration earlier more interesting, for either stealing tech or sabotage. If they can acquire infiltration points faster, they can steal tech faster, which would lead to the Forgotten passing through era 2 more swiftly. It is an outcome that would at least rival the outcome derived from using the starting hero as governor up until era 3.

Or...you keep the starting hero as governor since, in most cases, they'll be a huge part of your income (which you need for luxuries, strategics, new heroes, upkeep, etc even if you try to buy zero tech)...and hire new spies. We'll see, I suppose, since your argument relies (as far as I can tell) on spying (specifically, early tech stealing) to be boosted as well, so we can't really test it right now.

Avilyss wrote:
I just thought of another tip that people may not know, since we're on the topic of Forgotten governors...the ability of a Forgotten governor to draw Dust from forest tiles is NOT considered when making things like the Dust Transmuter that adds +10 Dust to tiles with Dust. The Dust Transmuter and things similar to it, only affect tiles with a natural Dust output (or a Dust ouput gained through research).

You're right. That would be another argument against settling in heavily forested areas and relying on a Forgotten governor for the long term (As in by era 3), unless you are really lucky and have a river going through. Which is why I tend to avoid settling Forgotten cities near forests barring maybe the capital (which ends up becoming my production centre, while other regions focus on dust).



Forgotten governors can be decent early game, but I think if spying is boosted, it would make transitioning them to infiltration earlier more interesting, for either stealing tech or sabotage. If they can acquire infiltration points faster, they can steal tech faster, which would lead to the Forgotten passing through era 2 more swiftly. It is an outcome that would at least rival the outcome derived from using the starting hero as governor up until era 3.

I just thought of another tip that people may not know, since we're on the topic of Forgotten governors...the ability of a Forgotten governor to draw Dust from forest tiles is NOT considered when making things like the Dust Transmuter that adds +10 Dust to tiles with Dust. The Dust Transmuter and things similar to it, only affect tiles with a natural Dust output (or a Dust ouput gained through research).