BPrado wrote:
I think they are too strong to be limited. That would imply a lot of side-meta to make the other players able to compete despite losing the Guardians.



I think something nice would be to give each faction a unique Trait that affects their research/training/usage of guardians according to their strenghts, in a way that there´s a base Gios, and AM Gios, WW Gios, RC Gios etc..

Actually I think that would be pretty interesting. Very interesting, in fact. My only problem with that is now we have 10 versions of Gios to balance against 10 versions of each other Guardian. I'd like it but I'm not sure that Amplitude would.



Also, do we make each faction's Guardian bonus different for each Guardian or just a general bonus for that faction no mater which Guardian they go with?

drewwest wrote:
Each guardian in my opinion should be limited to the player that unlocks them, the fact that they are available to everyone baffles me a little. Does anyone know if theres a mod out there that makes them work like a legendary deed/building. I want to race for the specific guardian I want/need. This is my only criticim with that specific expansion.



Im no good at modding myself so I hope theres one out there somewhere

it would add more speed to the game I think, but then there would not be the epic guardianbattles .

icarus86 wrote:
I actually like this idea ! Sounds really cool.

Indeed. I could get behind this in a G2G vote.

icarus86 wrote:
I agree with you.

But I don't think this is about OP, but rather about immersion.

Immersion is subjective. To me, immersion IS having access to ALL guardians if the usual tech requirements are met so I have a free choice of seeing how they work. In a subjective situation, the best course of action is to mod or include setting options to accommodate other preferences. Not a blanket limitation of the current guardian choices and availability to the player.

BPrado wrote:
Thanks.



I think that a single trait that is applied to every Guardian is enough and much easier to balance. This can also lead to further factional identification with this or that Guardian - someone who gets extra % on Guardian def will likely preffer Gios, while someone who gets extra % on damage or attack might want to preffer Fotios or Neros.



Just to suggest some stuff without thinking much



WW - Resource Allocation: -15% industry cost on Guardians in regions which extract the required strategic for that Guardian

Vaulters - Resource Efficiency: -25% strategic cost on Guardians which require the Holy Resource

Forgotten - Fast Tracking: -5% buyout cost reduction for each Technological Era achieved

AM - Dust Rituals: +25% effects on Buffs and Spells on Guardians or Guardians get the Ardent Fire capacity (i think that´s the name?i forgot)

BL - Dust Empathy: +30% defense +30% attack on Skoros

Drakken - Nativity: +10% defense on Guardians

RC - Logistics: +1 movement +10% HP on Guardians

Cult - Brainwashed Zealots: +15% attack on Guardians

Necro - Swarming Mentality: +10% initiative on Guardians

I actually like this idea ! Sounds really cool.

Slashman wrote:
Actually I think that would be pretty interesting. Very interesting, in fact. My only problem with that is now we have 10 versions of Gios to balance against 10 versions of each other Guardian. I'd like it but I'm not sure that Amplitude would.



Also, do we make each faction's Guardian bonus different for each Guardian or just a general bonus for that faction no mater which Guardian they go with?

Thanks.



I think that a single trait that is applied to every Guardian is enough and much easier to balance. This can also lead to further factional identification with this or that Guardian - someone who gets extra % on Guardian def will likely preffer Gios, while someone who gets extra % on damage or attack might want to preffer Fotios or Neros.



Just to suggest some stuff without thinking much



WW - Resource Allocation: -15% industry cost on Guardians in regions which extract the required strategic for that Guardian

Vaulters - Resource Efficiency: -25% strategic cost on Guardians which require the Holy Resource

Forgotten - Fast Tracking: -5% buyout cost reduction for each Technological Era achieved

AM - Dust Rituals: +25% effects on Buffs and Spells on Guardians or Guardians get the Ardent Fire capacity (i think that´s the name?i forgot)

BL - Dust Empathy: +30% defense +30% attack on Skoros

Drakken - Nativity: +10% defense on Guardians

RC - Logistics: +1 movement +10% HP on Guardians

Cult - Brainwashed Zealots: +15% attack on Guardians

Necro - Swarming Mentality: +10% initiative on Guardians

icarus86 wrote:
I agree with you.

But I don't think this is about OP, but rather about immersion.

Yup, it is more so about immersion, I agree. It would be nice to atleast have the option to see what its like, hopefully someone will mod it in eventually :l

idlih10 wrote:
I strongly disagree to any suggestion to limit guardian access barring the usual tech and quest requirements. On harder difficulties, the AI WILL build and use guardians. Although I'd like the AI to be more proactive about upgrading their weapons, at least on harder difficulties. Then again, this applies to all units, not only guardians. Do NOT limit the player's choice on number or type of guardian to use in any way beyond the normal requirements. They cannot join armies and may be caught isolated in the right circumstances. Some have limited movement pts or relatively low max health. That is hardly OPed.



Edit: To add, guardians help to level the playing field when up against militaristically strong factions like necrophages or drakken. Or help to balance the fight against an AI that spams lots of decent units and outnumbers you greatly. All these bearing in mind that the AI also has equal opportunity to guardian access as the human player further highlights the point that there is no OP issue.

I agree with you.

But I don't think this is about OP, but rather about immersion.

I strongly disagree to any suggestion to limit guardian access barring the usual tech and quest requirements. On harder difficulties, the AI WILL build and use guardians. Although I'd like the AI to be more proactive about upgrading their weapons, at least on harder difficulties. Then again, this applies to all units, not only guardians. Do NOT limit the player's choice on number or type of guardian to use in any way beyond the normal requirements. They cannot join armies and may be caught isolated in the right circumstances. Some have limited movement pts or relatively low max health. That is hardly OPed.



Edit: To add, guardians help to level the playing field when up against militaristically strong factions like necrophages or drakken. Or help to balance the fight against an AI that spams lots of decent units and outnumbers you greatly. All these bearing in mind that the AI also has equal opportunity to guardian access as the human player further highlights the point that there is no OP issue.

Thanks for the explanation wilbefast. Although, I kind of think the scyther unit negates the issue of limiting guardians. That being said..... I probably would have liked to see, having given it more thought; is having all five guardians be unlocked in the same era and once one is researched the other four are closed off to the player. I can understand that one player unlocking all of the guardians is a crazy advantage.

Each guardian in my opinion should be limited to the player that unlocks them, the fact that they are available to everyone baffles me a little. Does anyone know if theres a mod out there that makes them work like a legendary deed/building. I want to race for the specific guardian I want/need. This is my only criticim with that specific expansion.



Im no good at modding myself so I hope theres one out there somewhere

I think they are too strong to be limited. That would imply a lot of side-meta to make the other players able to compete despite losing the Guardians.



I think something nice would be to give each faction a unique Trait that affects their research/training/usage of guardians according to their strenghts, in a way that there´s a base Gios, and AM Gios, WW Gios, RC Gios etc..

wilbefast wrote:
One-per-world type constructions/units/quests are examples of "positive feedback" - which is designer jargon for "the winning player is likely to win more, the losing player is likely to lose more".



Positive feedback is good for preventing the game from stagnating, negative feedback (the opposite) is good for giving trailing players a chance to catch up. If there is too much positive feedback players will quit mid-game because there is no longer any chance for them. If there is too much negative feedback the game will never end decisively.



We feel that the Wonders and Deeds are sufficient positive feedback and that the feedback balance is pretty good overall, so we'd rather not further emphasise the winner's lead by making Guardians one per world

Thank you for the explanation. This is what I was looking for earlier in this thread. It makes sense from a gameplay POV, not that much from an immersion POV though ...



Still : if you want to build a Guardian, you need to first research it, then spend lots of production (and resources) to actually build it. If some other player finishes their Guardian 2 turns before you do, it would generate a lot of frustration ... You could get the resources back (even perhaps with some "compensation"), but what happens with the time spent on researching it ?



I can't find a better compromise for the moment ... maybe someone has an idea, so that we improve immersion but don't hurt balance and gameplay ?

drewwest wrote:
Each guardian in my opinion should be limited to the player that unlocks them, the fact that they are available to everyone baffles me a little. Does anyone know if theres a mod out there that makes them work like a legendary deed/building. I want to race for the specific guardian I want/need. This is my only criticim with that specific expansion.

One-per-world type constructions/units/quests are examples of "positive feedback" - which is designer jargon for "the winning player is likely to win more, the losing player is likely to lose more".



Positive feedback is good for preventing the game from stagnating, negative feedback (the opposite) is good for giving trailing players a chance to catch up. If there is too much positive feedback players will quit mid-game because there is no longer any chance for them. If there is too much negative feedback the game will never end decisively.



We feel that the Wonders and Deeds are sufficient positive feedback and that the feedback balance is pretty good overall, so we'd rather not further emphasise the winner's lead by making Guardians one per world

Making an expansion part and parcel of another expansion is not something anyone should do, ever.

I wouldn't oppose this being re-worked. Making all the guardians more powerful and unlocked by being the first to kill them rather than researching them makes sense to me. That way they still have their longer build times and they are generally more rewarding to have.

Problem with this suggenstion, however, is that being the first to kill them as a requirement gives a big advantage to whoever is closest to them. So, maybe having them linked to pearls in this new dlc would be a good idea?

It's one of the reasons why I deactivate Guardians.



Ideally, it should have been that the Guardians surface by late game as very powerful neutral creatures that want to wreck havoc. In response, all factions gain access to a "guardian-like" unit that they can build only one of, which best represents their faction.

Agreed.It hurts the thematic of the game just like everybody being able to equip quest armor and having 10 heroes units with the same name.

I too am confused about this choice made by Amplitude.

Perhaps they can add a bit of info about why having the Guardians locked to a single player is not feasible ?