Hi everyone.

I hope everyone agrees, that in current state forgotten are weak, because there is only one way to play with them in multiplayer - military rush. So forgotten now must be played more aggressive, then necrophages. I think, something wrong with this.

I have an idea, how forgotten can be changed to be more powerfull in peace. But, this also need to rework espionage system a bit.

This is my personal opinion and it can't be absolute truth, but may be somebody can find this good/usefull.



UA: Espionage economy:

-25% on food, production, science and dust.

-1 level need for espionage actions

All espionage actions has bonus effects.



Efficient stock:

Allow to use more stockpiles in one turn



What's Mine is Mine, Learn from Others - faction-specific technology, that is realy good.



Espionage:

Level 1: No actions available

Level 2: Actions work on this city

Level 3: Actions work on this city

Level 4: Actions work on this city + 1/2 of target empire size.

Level 5: Actions work on every city in empire

All infiltrated actions work 10 turns.



Espionage actions:

1. Decrease food/industry/science production: 0/10%/15%/20%/25% (numbers given as example)

Forgotten bonus: recive a stocks, number of stocks based on decreased resource production.



2. Make a rebelion

Decrease happiness of target empire.

Forgotten bonus: recive a bonus happiness boost.



3. Damage infractructure:

Extractors in target region will be pillaged.

Forgotten bonus: recive bonus resources, like if you have pillaged extractors by you's army.



4. Decrease morale - good, but shouldn't stack(every action of this type must just increase duration of effect).

Forgotten bonus: bonus morale, when fighting with units of target civilization



5. Decrease defence - very good, but may be must affect only one city.

Forgotten bonus: Units in city garnison will take damage



6. Pillage trade roads: decrease dust income from trade.

Forgotten bonus: you will recive bonus dust.



What we will get in result:

We will get faction of thieves, which economy depends on how much they will steal from other empires with espionage. I think, this is much better, then 2nd necrophages

About espionage action "Decrease food/industry/science production".

Stockpies should be recived like necrophages food stockpies:

On page "Empire" you should have 3 bars: one for food, one for science, one for industry.

While effect is active - every turn decreased resource production of target empire will be added to one of bars. When bar is filled - stockpiles will be generated.

I agree they need some buffs, I think the changes they made in the Shifters patch is a step in the right direction.

CHANGES AND ADDITIONS Shadows content

"Practiced Pillage" also reduces by 1 the Military Upkeep of army units.

"Spying" 1 to 4 hero abilities grant different Upkeep reduction when spying: +40%, +50%, +60%, +80% instead of +50% for everyone.

"What's Mine is Mine" technology grants +15 Security instead of +10.

"Caudata Sanctuary" also grants -30% spy action cost on Hero.

Reduced the Buyout cost of Technologies by 5%.

Added "Army Piercing Boost" to the native army leader capacities of Ziema.

Tweaked Forgotten trait costs in order to better fit with recent Faction balancing.

The detection range is displayed with the vision range on the Army Content panel.

Pillage change... I guess every little bit helps.

Spying is a good change, and makes them real cheap to maintain. I tend to go crazy with heroes with Forgotten and pay a lot to upkeep, but ultimately at this point it's a marginal benefit. Still a good change though.

What's Mine is Mine is good as well, though perhaps less noteworthy.

Caudata Sanctuary is actually useful now, imo. The infiltration cost is largely negligible given how long it takes to get off strong actions. This makes spamming smaller ones a little bit more reasonable.

Reduced the Buyout cost of Technologies by 5% is always good.

Army Piercing Boost is really good especially when you consider that Predators and Myst actually have fairly low base damage, so the relative increase in damage is significant.



I also think that they might be getting a slight buff with the Pearl mechanics as well, as stealth makes pearl gathering a dangerous proposition, so they should be one of the better factions for it, and some of the Altar technology isn't bad for them.



Still, I think they could use a little bit of a buff, especially going the peaceful route.

I do agree w/ buffing the Forgotten ... I like OP's suggestions.

I agree Spying needs changin but don't have any suggestions.



Pillaging needs to be replaced with pilfering for Forgotten instead of destroying an extractor.. Forgotten should steal 1 (Number is for example) resource per turn if you have an assassin(Myst would be too op with this system.) next to an extractor..



Forgotten don't seem like the "scorched earth" type of race. The idea is similar to skyfins (I love the skyfin game play since I can play taller) who can "steal" untapped resources from other factions (Until closed borders.) Forgotten can steal tapped This would make a more stealth like gameplay, while fixing some forgotten issues.. (Army to weak to pillage, more profitable to ruins search).. This would still be easy for another race to stop happening as long as they could see through the stealth IE watchtowers.

Trollie wrote:


Forgotten don't seem like the "scorched earth" type of race. The idea is similar to skyfins (I love the skyfin game play since I can play taller) who can "steal" untapped resources from other factions (Until closed borders.) Forgotten can steal tapped This would make a more stealth like gameplay, while fixing some forgotten issues.. (Army to weak to pillage, more profitable to ruins search).. This would still be easy for another race to stop happening as long as they could see through the stealth IE watchtowers.

This would contradict the lore. There are explicit mentions, both in their faction quest and in hero biographies, that the Forgotten are quite ruthless and devastating in raiding and pillaging other lands. They are stealthy, but they are also very much ruthless pillagers, as opposed to silent thieves.



I don't agree with a big overhaul of espionage, it would be a waste of resources and I highly doubt Amplitude is going to dedicate the time and costs to rework it. Espionage, as it is, is quite fine and potent when you reach high infiltration levels.



The problem with the Forgotten is that they do not have an innate advantage in espionage, as a faction. It is good to compare them with the Allayi, in that regard. Both factions need the new mechanics introduced (espionage for tech stealing and pearls, respectively). However, the Allayi have a clear and distinct advantage in the pearl race, and are the only ones that can reliably base their strategy around pearls (for blessings and winter voting). The Forgotten on the other hand only get cost reductions to espionage, but nothing else that every other faction can't acquire as well.



So I think it is crucial to give the Forgotten a faction trait that grants whatever spies they infiltrate an innate and immediate seniority bonus (let's say seniority 3). This would essentially allow Forgotten spies to acquire infiltration levels faster than any other faction, which would allow them to rely on espionage more. This would mark the Forgotten as the best espionage faction, without overdoing it.

I think, every faction should have ways to play peacefull and agressive.

Wild walkers:

Peace: easy quest, Living Towns

War: best archers, Living Towns



Broken Lords:

Peace: Dust Efficient, Much more population

War: Dust Crematorium



Vaulters:

Peace: Knack for Knowledge, Holy resource boost, Winter shelters

War: Technolover, Veins of Auriga



Necrophages:

Peace: Cull the Herd, Cellulose Mutation, Demanding Gods

War: Recycling



Ardent mages:

Peace: Arcana Pillars

War: Battle spells



Roving clans:

Peace: Peace and Prosperity, Cuts Both Ways

War: Mercenary Comforts, Keys to the Market, Freelance Guards



Drakken:

Peace: Endless Excavation, Advanced Diarchy, Diplomatic Pressure, Aura of Leadership

War: Advanced Diarchy, early access to 2nd and 3rd assimilation sloth



Cultists:

Peace: High Seat of the Queen, Conversion

War: Conversion



Only forgotten doesn't have any bonuses to play peacefully. All their bonuses oriented on war.



And about espionage - from my exp players now using few actions:

1. Damage fortification & Decrease morale - war

2. Steal vision

3. Decrease population - before war(this is OP action in early game and much weaker in late game)

4. Decrease industry - cultists are crying

Other actions are good, but this are very strong

escalist wrote:


Only forgotten doesn't have any bonuses to play peacefully. All their bonuses oriented on war.

That's not entirely true. The Forgotten have a unique tech, commercial espionage, that boosts their trading. You could play the Forgotten as a commercial power.

In addition, you can play as a tech broker, stealing technologies and then selling them to other parties.



You can also indirectly interfere in other wars and conflicts, through espionage, without involving yourself directly. Same goes with pillaging. While it is an aggressive action, if you do it unnoticed, you are still technically at peace, much like using privateers for the RC.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:


That's not entirely true. The Forgotten have a unique tech, commercial espionage, that boosts their trading. You could play the Forgotten as a commercial power.

I think in this way forgotten should be compared with Broken Lord. Bronken lords are good, because buy out population is cheaper, then gettion population with food.

Thanks to this, broken lord has more population.

More population -> more production/dust.

This means, that broken lord's population buy out is like investitions in future production.



But, when you are playing forgotten - you trade dust for science. And as for me - this is unfaid deal. This is like wasting production for nothing(because other can don't waste production to get science).

escalist wrote:
I think, every faction should have ways to play peacefull and agressive.

Wild walkers:

Peace: easy quest, Living Towns

War: best archers, Living Towns



Broken Lords:

Peace: Dust Efficient, Much more population

War: Dust Crematorium



Vaulters:

Peace: Knack for Knowledge, Holy resource boost, Winter shelters

War: Technolover, Veins of Auriga



Necrophages:

Peace: Cull the Herd, Cellulose Mutation, Demanding Gods

War: Recycling



Ardent mages:

Peace: Arcana Pillars

War: Battle spells



Roving clans:

Peace: Peace and Prosperity, Cuts Both Ways

War: Mercenary Comforts, Keys to the Market, Freelance Guards



Drakken:

Peace: Endless Excavation, Advanced Diarchy, Diplomatic Pressure, Aura of Leadership

War: Advanced Diarchy, early access to 2nd and 3rd assimilation sloth



Cultists:

Peace: High Seat of the Queen, Conversion

War: Conversion



Only forgotten doesn't have any bonuses to play peacefully. All their bonuses oriented on war.



And about espionage - from my exp players now using few actions:

1. Damage fortification & Decrease morale - war

2. Steal vision

3. Decrease population - before war(this is OP action in early game and much weaker in late game)

4. Decrease industry - cultists are crying

Other actions are good, but this are very strong

This is excellent. Thanks for taking the time to write this.



Marc