KnightofPhoenix wrote:
I actually think a ranged hero complements the Allayi, in different ways. The +1/+1 movement for instance works really well with the already substantial mobility of the Allayi, which in turn makes the empire plan for increased mobility less important so you can spend influence on other empire plans. In addition, the attack boost and extra accessory are also quite helpful.



I personally prefer to focus more on the Allayi racial tree than the ranged tree, as it has very nice skills (Auriga affinity and safe retreat especially).

Possibly changing their heroes to the flying skill tree used for Eslek Tarosh might benefit them more, especially if using a lot of monks

I really dislike how the second the AI sees you, it closes its borders. It makes the new unit for the Allayi almost pointless. There should be some sort of economic penalty for closing your borders, so you would do it less

eXistenZ wrote:
I really dislike how the second the AI sees you, it closes its borders. It makes the new unit for the Allayi almost pointless. There should be some sort of economic penalty for closing your borders, so you would do it less

There is one. It's called "not being able to engage in trade."

Slashman wrote:
There is one. It's called "not being able to engage in trade."

It does seem like the AI undervalues trade, though.

Slashman wrote:
There is one. It's called "not being able to engage in trade."

They dont seem to care about it. Even dust factions like the broken lords close their borders in an instant and ask half of auriga's natural resources to open them again. And then close them again as soon as possible



Maybe add a science penalty as well (exchange of knowledge is harder)

eXistenZ wrote:
I really dislike how the second the AI sees you, it closes its borders. It makes the new unit for the Allayi almost pointless. There should be some sort of economic penalty for closing your borders, so you would do it less

I become frustrated with this too, especially once all the accessible regions are colonized (guess which faction DIDN'T colonize most of them And no, Cultists can colonize like crazy with conversion :P )

But I guess that's the viable defence against Allayi. Maybe Closing Borders could be more expensive so that you really need to choose to either defend from those pesky pillagers/aspirates/Pearl poachers or fuel your Empire Plans.

Closed Borders in lategame and possible starvation is the price for unsurpassed early-midgame scouting and mobility, which straight up leads to Pearl domination. Skyfin are safer in neutral ground than Forgotten units that can be detected by neighbouring troops.



Endless Mechanisms tech might be actually worth it on Allayi.



There already is a payoff for closing borders - all trade routes and commercial/scientific agreements are broken with the targeted empire. But I guess you would not want peace with someone who is poaching your juicy anomaly Pearl deposits anyway, so it's a very mild payoff.



Another parallel between Allayi and Forgotten is drawn in my mind. Closed Borders does not fully stop neither Allayi from mass Pearl Harvesting (because there are other regions) nor Forgotten from pillaging (because stealth allows to surpass the borders if unnoticed). It is, respectively, colonization and Watchtowers, actions that require more effort than gathering a fistful of Influence. Both require a possible shift in planning and resource allocation (Industry for Watchtowers, Influence/Luxuries/Army->Industry for colonizing).

Hello. cj.of.eath is a genious, he said all what I wanted to say.



I like the Allayi background, I like the new possibilities bringed by the winter and the pearls.



But Allayi are very underpowered especially in their economy. You don't have easy usage of pearls. Even the reserves cost you a lot of pearlys, you cannot inject them to boost your cities for free. Allayi need a strong buff to compet with the strongest race, as Wild Walkers or Ardent Mages (which are still very overpowered with their spells, nothing have changed on this).



The global problem what I don't like at all :



- The pearls are hard to see on the map, even with Allayis. You need to defocus on the strategic map to see them well, then refocus to grab them.



- The pearls are goods because they introduce the concept of fighting in the neutral regions, not only fighting to claim a region with a settler, or to invade someone, but for this ressource. This is very interesting in term of conception.



- It's very repetitive to grab the pearls. It's intense in micro management. Each turn, you need to look at the map, move on the map, take them if you can. You need to have some units if you really want to grab them. This is, potentialy interesting in term of strategy especially in multiplayer. But this is too much in micro mangement. I would have liked to have an option to automatize the collect, as they can automize the exploration. As why not auto moving units ? It would be so easier to play, especially with Allayi which need some pearls. The Skyfin could do that, he is attracted by pearls.



About winter and pearls usage :



- In my opinion there should be more ways to profit from pears when you are Allari. The reserves from pearls are a must have, but are still expansive to use. In some situations I got tons of Pearls but I don't know what to do with them, I cannot build gardens district fast enough. It would be cool to be able to use pearls as boosters, simply. +20 % global output and +20 % happiness would be good. Not very creative I know.



- In my opinion, the Allayis should have an immediate access to the advances techs of winter rituals. They don't need 3 winters, they are the servants of Auriga why would they need that. And in a gameplay point of view, it would let them more early ways to use their pearls. Another argument : the district which increase the generation of ressources and luxury is praticely impossible to use, because you will not wait 3 winter to buy it if you need to expand your districts. So, I ask a full unlock and access of all "graces of winter" for the Allayi, it would give them an explosion of strategies, but no real unbalance, because it still cost a lot of pearls or industry.



Response to cj.of.eath ideas :

cj.of.earth wrote:
And strangest of all, the Allayi have a Faction tree based around running away and bribery. It's got one great bonus called Pathfinder and a decent bonus called Improved Auriga Affinity. But, the tree itself looks terrible.

Yes, their skill trie is terrible. Worst war branch, and worst governor branch. The only good skill is the first skill, which suppress the movement penatly on the forest. I am sorry devs, but there is nothing to do with this hero.



Useless as governor, because you don't have an intense consumption of pearls which would require this more than a good booster governor.



Useless as commander, because you don't need some more speed on units, they are already very fast, because you don't need to boost your archers range, because Allayi don't have archers units (the Skyin does not count).



This hero need a serious boost : more intelligent and not cosmetic governor skills (skills which generate pearls, skill wich decrase the city expansion).



And I agree with that fact these new allari heroes make the good hero more rare on the market. That is annoying. It would be cool to have two more slots of hero recruitement, to compensate this. Please do that.

My recent Allayi:

Turn 60, Fast Speed, Easy World, Vs. Normal AI (1 Drakken), Small World Size (4v4), 4k-6k Dust Income, 2.3k Science Production, 6 Cities, 94% Empire Approval, Summer Season, 19 Pop (Main City), 8/9 Era V, 8 Legendary Deeds, 1246 Score.



Compared to my Custom Necrophages:

Turn 62, Fast Speed, Easy World, Vs. Serious AI (3 Random), Normal World Size (6v6), 12k-16k Dust Income, 4.7k Science Production, 10 Cities, 100% Empire Approval, Summer Season, 17 Pop (Main), 7/9 Era VI, 6 Legendary Deeds, 2108 Score.



Both have very large armies (+40 units, 2 Fotios, 10+ Heroes level 4-8). My Necrophages had twice as many Heroes.

This isn't all that bad when you consider my minor faction bonuses are 7 Delvers, 5 Dorgeshi and 3 Silics in my Necrophage game and I have at least +1-2 more Luxury Boosters running.

Same. I played enough Allari, and I am a good player, and yes they are weak in economy, and economy is all. Economy means industry, science, influence units, and map control. Without Map control, Allari does not have Pearls. At leats, Forgottens don't need map control to have pearls, they have stealth units...

These are my initial impressions so far:



1. The +100% cost of producing Population is unreasonable. +25%ish is more reasonable.

+50 % would be good for me.

2. The +150% expansion disapproval is too high. +50% would work fine.

I agree. They already have difficulties to grow their population. The disapproval is very hard. I am not opposed to this disapproval, for the early and mid game why not, but they need special buildings to limit it in mid and late game I think. How can they control the city they will conquier ? How cn

3. The Pearl cost on districts is too high. Reduced to 1/2 would be fine.

I don't agree. It have to be hard to build them, you have to have map control and enough pearl collect. The price today look me enough.

4. Their faction hero shouldn't be a Ranged unit. It should be a Support unit with a Support tree. The Ranged tree is neglible since the Allayi don't have Ranged units that can fully benefit from the skills (Skyfin have Solitary). The Support tree would be more appreciated.

I agree. His skill should be reworked : new skills, or infantery skills. Anything but not ranged. The increase range skill is completely useless...

5. Their Faction tree is setup badly. Awestriker is where Pathfinder should be and Pathfinder is where Zealous Hands should be.

. It

Allayi governor skills suck. They are near to be useless. I think it would be better to replace a useless skill by a usefull skill. For exemple the corruption skill is useless, really uselss. It should add too this kind of bonus : Allari Garth production speed +25 % level 1, and +50 % level 2. With this, their governor would be interesting to place in city where you are building Garth. They could too add a percentage industry bonus, and too reduce the dissaproval expansion, wich is the main problem of a developped Allayi Empire.

6. Zealous Hands should increase the cost reduction of producing new Population by +5%, +5% in addition to it's original effect. There are too many bad city managers in the game. With the addition of both the Forgotten and the Allayi, their Heroes are clogging up the market and preventing the players from getting useful Heroes (Industry+Food Boost, Slavery, Industry Efficiency 2, Influence Boost 3).

This suggestions rejoins mine, or mine rejoins yours if you prefer. We need more really good builder traits.

7. Awestriker's effect should be replaced with +25%, +25% Hero Experience.

I dont know what is this skill, in french.

8. Chosen of Auriga's effect should be replaced with +15%, +15% or +10%, +10%, +10% Army Initiative.

I don't know what is this skill, in french.

9. Coup de Grace should increase Damage, not Attack. A reduction on the amount would be a good idea.

I does not matter in my opinion. Having very high attack lead to criticals, wich double the damages, so I don't see what it does really change.

10. Monks should be able to use boots and they should not be based around Countering. Allayi focus on bonus Initiative. Monks could use a redesign so that they benefit from Initiative stacking and not Countering.

I agree.

11. Skyfin have more HP than they should have. A reduction of 33%ish would be fair.

I don't care. Skyfim is expansive in ressource, his damage is low, so it's ok if it is a though create, hard to kill on the map. And he is Solitary (cannot stack in an army).

12. The Allayi need Food/Industry Boost 2-3 on their Heroes. They do not need Science Boost(different discussion, it's not good). Refer to point 6.

They need a huge boost for their hero, so I don't really care of a small boost of food or not. I would prefer really good governor skills.

13. The Pearl cost of switching forms is unnecessary (and extremely unwanted). I spent Pearls on this only one time for the Faction quest which required a level 3 Skyfin in dark form.

I think the problem it's the difference between winter and non winter version of a unit is not enough tacticaly important. But It may be usefull if you use units well. So I don't ok to remove the cost. But going from 3 pearls to 2 pearls would be better.

14. The Allayi need a way to produce a small amount of Pearls innately, at least 0.4 Pearls per day per city on Fast.

In my opinon there is enough pearls for everyone in early and mid game. But in late game It could be usefull, because everybody have enough economy and produciton to have some units patroling the world and taking the pearls. I still don't think what you propose would be a necessity.



15. The Light Form's bonus to Health Regeneration does not appear to be working properly.



16. Pathfinder should increase Dust+Science from Trade Routes by +25% in addition to it's original effect.







I enjoy the way the faction is designed and I have a lot of positivity towards it at the moment. But, balance-wise I feel this faction is not where it should be. I would much prefer an overpowered faction that speeds up the game rather than an underpowered faction that slows the game down. And frankly, a balanced faction that can War and Eco would be much more appreciated than having only one or the other.



I wish I could give more positive feedback here. I genuinely enjoyed the Artwork and the overall design concepts. But, I honestly don't know what to say. This is another of a series of DLCs for this game that I have had some fairly negative reactions to. Forgotten are okay. But, Guardians..... Legendary Deeds are so imbalanced.... And I would pay actual money to see Co-Op quests removed forever. They do nothing but slow the game down even further. Now Allayi.... I have mixed feelings at the moment.







Again, sorry for the lengthyness of this post.[/QUOTE]

I don't agree that the Allayi racial tree is useless. I am not a big fan of bribery (though it is useful for Cultists), but I've found safe retreating to be an awesome ability. Against the AI, it practically brings them to a halt when you are on the defensive (and I have used it successfully to pin an army on frozen water until it melted). Against players, it forces on them the dilemma of having armies attacking separately, and grants the Allayi player a level of "operational control", to use military lingo. I find it to be a very unique and cool ability.



As for Allayi governors, I have been using an Allayi hero as a governor / pearl collector with good results. I equip them with Auriga Affinity 3 (which provides an exp boost) and aim to get the 20%/20% pearl cost reduction on buildings. I use them to build pearl improvements, and when they have nothing to do, I have them collect pearls in and around my empire.



What I would suggest is having the pearl cost reduction apply to stockpiles and skyfin as well. That would make an Allayi governor a bit more useful.



I do agree however that the Allayi economy needs a slight boost.

How do people NOT use a couple Skyfins early on to zip around the map and grab all the pearls? Seriously...they can't aggro minor factions...at all!

someguy216 wrote:
I'm not talking about the entire expansion but more focusing on the new faction. What does everyone think of it and is there any advice you'd give to playing as them?



At the moment (although i've only played about 30 turns with them) they seem rather weak. This might be because they are more of a late-game faction but the way my economy is going not sure even if any sough of late game advantage will win me the game. The main problem is the +150% expansion approval which means expanding is very slow with them which also means they don't wage wars well because even if they capture a city all there other cities will plummet in approval. So really its all up to their advantages in winter which from what I've seen arent even that big, as in the temple of aurgia bonuses arent amazing which is there main source of advantage. They have the best early game scouting though with a free powerful unit which makes up for a small bit.

I like them so far. I'm not sure how they compare in economically, but Monks are insane. I have been favoring going aggressive with them fairly quickly.



Skyfin gets you easy access to a massive amount of pearls and advanced resources. So normally, I outfit monks with pearl armor and strategic weapons (adaman/palla if you got them), wait for winter, and then just go. The approval drop when you take a city is a pain, but if you are keeping up your approval and have multiple luxury resources, you can manage. Shifters make use out of all luxuries due to their duration extending tech.



They feel like a cross between Cultists (hunting pearls and resources feels most similar to converting villages, plus diminished ability to expand) and vaulters (due to a focus on strategic resources).



I imagine that an economic or scientific or expansion victory will be very difficult for them, though their quest seems fairly reasonable. I usually go for supremacy in any case.



The hero feels specialized in the same way that Forgotten heroes are specialized, (pearl hunting vs infiltration), which gives a nice variety for the other factions.



There is an awkward transition where you are mostly building skyfin in order to get enough resources to do anything (build more skyfin, build burroughs, equip monks), and I'm not entirely sure what the best move is. The hero isn't that great a governor (pearl cost reduction is fine for a little bit, bit not long term), but I don't really want to go to war just yet, and pacifying villages send pointless if you aren't going to expand there eventually.



So not entirely certain what is best to do then, but once you get it up and running, they say seem good.

I like the Allayi concept a lot, but after playing a game with them, I don't think I'll play them again.



Reason 1) With the incredibly slow movement speed of armies on the campaign map, grabbing the pearls each winter takes a lot of real-world time just looking at your units moving.

Reason 2) The expansion penalty is large and unlike the others, you can't negate half of your expansion disapproval with techs. This makes fighting wars a bit too micro for my taste with regards to managing approval.

Reason 3) While I enjoy their faction quest, the construction of the final building consumes too much time just clicking away on "end turn", even if you have the Industrial Megapole and industry stockpiles. Quest and science victories are fun only once in my opinion.

eXistenZ wrote:
I really dislike how the second the AI sees you, it closes its borders. It makes the new unit for the Allayi almost pointless. There should be some sort of economic penalty for closing your borders, so you would do it less

The AI will tend to close its borders very quickly when you take pearls it has ear-marked (best avoid any on its territory or near its units if you want to stay on good terms).



You can't trade any more when your borders are closed - the AI should in theory be hesitant to cut off ongoing trade once it has been established, I'll check this.

Why would you equip Monks with pearl gear? I thought those were mainly for non-Allayi races as the Allayi themselves already have most of the bonuses.

Tornodo_X12 wrote:
Possibly changing their heroes to the flying skill tree used for Eslek Tarosh might benefit them more, especially if using a lot of monks

YES YES AND YES! Please Amplitude that would be AWESOME!



Edit: Now that I think about it, nerf monks abit too then It would be fine

wilbefast wrote:
The AI will tend to close its borders very quickly when you take pearls it has ear-marked (best avoid any on its territory or near its units if you want to stay on good terms).



You can't trade any more when your borders are closed - the AI should in theory be hesitant to cut off ongoing trade once it has been established, I'll check this.

Thanks for the information, this startet to annoy me too!



Talking about the expansion and the Allayi as a faction: Great work

I think the Allayi are one of the stronger factions.

I am by no means an expert in this game and havent played for a couple of months.

I bought shifters started playing with the Allayi on serious and it was smooth. Skyfins and monks just rule!

Most of the time i had a hard time on serious...



In my opinion this is one of the best expansions to a 4x ever made and now Endless Legends comes cloes to my all time favorite Master of Magic

Picrasso wrote:
Why would you equip Monks with pearl gear? I thought those were mainly for non-Allayi races as the Allayi themselves already have most of the bonuses.

I do not think they get full winter immunity, just movement IIRC. Plus, it's better than the Titanium/Glassteel equivalent (if you do a direct comparison with the chest piece, they have the same type of bonuses, but pearl is better). Also, it tends to be the fastest way to utilize your pearls and you can get enough to build up an army fairly easily.



Not sure if it's optimal (in general, I actually avoid using resources on armor for units), but it's what I do. I'm not sure if non-Allayi would be able to get enough to outfit an army (I believe it's just per unit, not an army bonus) or even if that would be the best use of pearls for them, I haven't even played non-Allayi with the new expansion.



Just checked. They only have immunity to winter penalties for vision and movement, they still are hit by penalties for attributes.

Love the quick-to-build Monks. You can make a massive army of them very quickly.



The Allayi can easily be the best warring faction in the game.



Marc

Instead of the 800 word essay I was about to post, here's a summary:



The Allayi are great scouts and take advantage of winter conditions, to be sure, but I find that these strengths do not overcome their penalties to expansion and development. In all of my games I've been behind in economy, technology, and industry, and it is very hard to catch up to the AI when you grow half as fast at least.



Perhaps to play them effectively you must fight. The seekers are pretty poor combatants, but work decently with your Hero and with Skyfin support. I'd certainly recommend building several skyfins after your initial quest-granted one; think of them as mobile and more effective resource extractors that can also help your armies in combat.



Beware when winter hits, because you'll take a larger hit to your dust income than normal - that nice summertime upkeep bonus flies out the window along with the natural dust yield from worked tiles.



Garths are great; the Chapel of Auriga is great; Minor Factions are your friends and you should avoid settling in 1-village regions unless you really need to. Instead of settling a disputed region, just occupy it with troops and kill anything that moves. It requires more micromanagement but is usually cheaper and less detrimental than settling.



That's all for now. I've only played a few hours as the Allayi, and for all of their difficulty to grasp they are quite fun. They are a very interesting addition to the game.

I like the Allayi's setting and units, but the growth penalty, combined with the fact that every faction starts to hate you because you go after their pearls or resources, I probably wont play them again soon

eXistenZ wrote:
..the fact that every faction starts to hate you because you go after their pearls..

I agree that this is a huge issue! Your army isn't really that strong, you expand slow, so might get surrounded, and on top of that, diplomacy is difficult because of AI getting annoyed you take pearls. Once I started amping up the difficulty, I stopped finding them viable.