The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
After reading through this thread, I believe many people here need some clarification on how the Towers determine their damage.



Here's the relevant line for the tier 1 tower:

[CODE][/CODE]



As you can see, it calculates 0.3*CityDefensePoint, and does not at all use PillageDefense, MaximumPillageDefense, or PillageDefenseRecovery.

In plain English, for those who haven't looked around the XML:



The towers do NOT use the "Fortification" of the Tower to determine the damage, but the Fortification of the City. In Bprado's example, that's at least 300 damage spread across the enemy units, possibly more depending on how much Fortification is hiding behind that unhelpful "1k" tooltip.

Bells and Whistles and the other Pillage Defense buildings only keep your towers up for longer so they can do their job. To improve the damage, you need city improvements like Stronghold Architecture, Defensive Wards, or Strength of the Vault.





So, while I agree that the free healing in Endless Legend can be excessive, the towers are doing their job just fine if you actually prepare to use them. If you play with the old mindset of "City Fortification is useless," then so are the towers.

Unfortunately, the use of the word Fortification for two types of Defense is a little confusing (though at least it's not at the level of DnD.)

Wow, thanks for the explanation !

This sounds like a cool mechanic, to me at least ...

So, I tested it. Adding the Bells technology, the Tower of Fidelity deals almost half hp dmg on a 6 unit army.



Pic or it didn´t happen.

After reading through this thread, I believe many people here need some clarification on how the Towers determine their damage.



Here's the relevant line for the tier 1 tower:

[CODE][/CODE]



As you can see, it calculates 0.3*CityDefensePoint, and does not at all use PillageDefense, MaximumPillageDefense, or PillageDefenseRecovery.

In plain English, for those who haven't looked around the XML:



The towers do NOT use the "Fortification" of the Tower to determine the damage, but the Fortification of the City. In Bprado's example, that's at least 300 damage spread across the enemy units, possibly more depending on how much Fortification is hiding behind that unhelpful "1k" tooltip.

Bells and Whistles and the other Pillage Defense buildings only keep your towers up for longer so they can do their job. To improve the damage, you need city improvements like Stronghold Architecture, Defensive Wards, or Strength of the Vault.





So, while I agree that the free healing in Endless Legend can be excessive, the towers are doing their job just fine if you actually prepare to use them. If you play with the old mindset of "City Fortification is useless," then so are the towers.

Unfortunately, the use of the word Fortification for two types of Defense is a little confusing (though at least it's not at the level of DnD.)

Thanks for clearing that! Always glorious nine tailed cat.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
After reading through this thread, I believe many people here need some clarification on how the Towers determine their damage.



Here's the relevant line for the tier 1 tower:

[CODE][/CODE]



As you can see, it calculates 0.3*CityDefensePoint, and does not at all use PillageDefense, MaximumPillageDefense, or PillageDefenseRecovery.

In plain English, for those who haven't looked around the XML:



The towers do NOT use the "Fortification" of the Tower to determine the damage, but the Fortification of the City. In Bprado's example, that's at least 300 damage spread across the enemy units, possibly more depending on how much Fortification is hiding behind that unhelpful "1k" tooltip.

Bells and Whistles and the other Pillage Defense buildings only keep your towers up for longer so they can do their job. To improve the damage, you need city improvements like Stronghold Architecture, Defensive Wards, or Strength of the Vault.





So, while I agree that the free healing in Endless Legend can be excessive, the towers are doing their job just fine if you actually prepare to use them. If you play with the old mindset of "City Fortification is useless," then so are the towers.

Unfortunately, the use of the word Fortification for two types of Defense is a little confusing (though at least it's not at the level of DnD.)

As for me - this towers are the best defence for cultists:

1. Cult has highest defence ration in single city.

2. Cult doesn't research trade technology most of the time. And towers are perfect tool for detection enemy troops.

3. Cult doen't need too much pearls - only one city to spend them. So, he has perls to spend them on towers.



May be I'm wrong, but after shifters releast - cult is a bit OP.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:


So, while I agree that the free healing in Endless Legend can be excessive, the towers are doing their job just fine if you actually prepare to use them. If you play with the old mindset of "City Fortification is useless," then so are the towers.

Unfortunately, the use of the word Fortification for two types of Defense is a little confusing (though at least it's not at the level of DnD.)

Oh! I see!



Yea that makes a lot more sense now. If that is how it works, then it shouldn't be touched. I initially thought that if their damage is dependent on their own fortification which you cannot raise except through an item, then it should be increased. But now that I realize that it's based on city fortification, and there are many ways to boost it, then it's perfect as it is.



Thanks cat!

This exemple is strange compared to what I observed. But it's cool if it can do so much damages in one turn. I would like to see it in game, because for now I am defiant.



The Cultist are the civ who benefit the most of the towers. Maybe too much, if they do damages like that.



As the Cult has only one city, it's obivous that :



- They will try to increase the fortification as high as possible.

- There is only one target for the ennemy, so you don't have to calculate where to put your garrisons, where to build or not build : action will behere.

- There is only one city to infiltrate with spy so you are immunised to spying action. You just have to protect your borders with detection units or towers, or just to round up from time to time.

- And now, if the defense towers and main buildings are powerfull, any sieging armis will be destroyed.





If it's really efficiant like this in your "test", Cultist will maybe only be the true good user of the towers. Versus others civ, you can simply contournate the city and target another, that is why any fortification specialisation is generally not usefull, here it's absolutely not possible.

escalist wrote:


2. Cult doesn't research trade technology most of the time. And towers are perfect tool for detection enemy troops.

The Pearl Towers do NOT offer Detection radius. You can either build normal Watchtowers to spot enemy infiltrators, or you can build Defensive Towers to damage incoming armies, but you can not get both effects from the same foundation.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
The Pearl Towers do NOT offer Detection radius. You can either build normal Watchtowers to spot enemy infiltrators, or you can build Defensive Towers to damage incoming armies, but you can not get both effects from the same foundation.

Yep. If anything, the Forgotten got an indirect buff, militarily speaking. And even economically, as they are the 2nd best pearl collectors.

Thank you, KnightofPhoenix.



Now, let me go back through the thread again to fully understand it. What I learn here I convey to my co-op family and friend.



Marc

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
The Pearl Towers do NOT offer Detection radius. You can either build normal Watchtowers to spot enemy infiltrators, or you can build Defensive Towers to damage incoming armies, but you can not get both effects from the same foundation.

I mean increased vision range. If you want to protect youself from invisible units - you can just close borders to everyone(for this action is very cheap for this race).

And towers - they allow you to see what happens hear you's borders.

All units with Stealth can cross closed borders unless they have been detected, so Closed Borders are useless without Watchtowers or a hero with the Detection accessory.



And seeing what is next to your borders is really only a useful side effect of the Towers of Truth, as regular Watchtowers have greater vision range and are thus better suited to gathering intel on your surrounding area.

Folks,



I, and my Family are building both "Pearl" Tower types, and placing them everywhere we can because I noticed that a tower close to one of my cities being attacked absolutely melted the very strong stacked units at my city's gates. And, maybe that's the key: The tower is effective only when it's placed next to your city...any other spot doesn't really render it very useful. Am I correct?



My sister, Brother-in-Law and I share a large border against the enemy, so we placed the Pearl Towers along that border. I told them it's like an invisible electric fence, which weakens enemy forces when the pass the line. Am I correct?



In any case, I am still not clear on their use, but I certainly see their power when a tower is placed right next to a city.



Can anyone clarify for me?



Thanks,



Marc

johnyoga wrote:


My sister, Brother-in-Law and I share a large border against the enemy, so we placed the Pearl Towers along that border. I told them it's like an invisible electric fence, which weakens enemy forces when the pass the line. Am I correct?

Not entirely. It damages enemy forces that start their turn within the radius of the tower. An enemy army with enough movement points can pass through a tower and avoid damage, as long as it doesn't end its turn in the tower's radius.



It has been revealed in this thread that the damage of towers is a function of the city's fortification, not the tower's anti-pillage fortification. So the more you upgrade a city's fortification, the more damage towers in its region will dish out. Add to that governors that are specialized to defend and emerald boosters, and you've got yourself a tough nut to crack.



And you are right that towers become very useful if they are near cities. Their damage stacks with Ward of Auriga, both of which rely on city fortification to deal damage.

Where are the Pearl Towers?

@micky36



If you have Shifters-DLC you can build the "Altar of Auriga". If you click on its icon (up to the end turn button) you can activate (like research) the towers (every winter additional options/buildings are possible). Then you can build them (if you got the necessary number of pearls).

Some more information on the way the Altar works: :)



http://endless-legend.wikia.com/wiki/Altar_of_Auriga

BPrado wrote:
How can I put this? The same way Fortifications alone are not supposed to stop a large invading army, Towers alone are not supposed to damage a large invading army.

I completely agree with that and with the goal you ascribe to towers. I too think they should be less about pure damage and more about supplementing a general strategy of attrition and movement denial, in support of your army. But I still think that for the minuscule damage they inflict, they are not worth the pearl cost in unlocking and building them. Especially not when high movement armies can easily avoid their radius.



Either a small buff should be added (and I do mean small) or a cost reduction.

Completely useless they are, as all the anti damages building includling with a high fortification.



Again a non tested feature...



They need +200 % damages buff I think.

You know, you´re not supposed to kill the enemy army with a tower. They´re meant to provide you a small relative advantage, and engaging a damaged a army is better than engaging a full health one. Especially when your hero increases his attack using the life lost by the enemy.

BPrado wrote:
You know, you´re not supposed to kill the enemy army with a tower. They´re meant to provide you a small relative advantage, and engaging a damaged a army is better than engaging a full health one. Especially when your hero increases his attack using the life lost by the enemy.

Of course, but the damage is so minimal, that the affected army (of only 6 units) regenerated it completely the next turn. I wouldn't want towers to deal massive damage or even a lot of damage. But towers should allow you to wage a war of attrition and slowly whittle an army down over several turns, especially if you have several layers of towers. This can be done by the Allayi especially, thanks to safe retreating.



But as it stands, the damage is way too small. I'd increase it a bit.

BPrado wrote:
You know, you´re not supposed to kill the enemy army with a tower. They´re meant to provide you a small relative advantage, and engaging a damaged a army is better than engaging a full health one. Especially when your hero increases his attack using the life lost by the enemy.

Which they aren't doing. Hence the issue.

Were they slightly damaged for a turn? Could you have chosen to engage them in a moment they were hurt instead of full health? If so, the towers are working. They can´t deal significant damage without being greatly unbalanced. They don´t care about defence stats, about turns in a battle, about anything - it´s flat, free damage.

BPrado wrote:
Were they slightly damaged for a turn? Could you have chosen to engage them in a moment they were hurt instead of full health? If so, the towers are working. They can´t deal significant damage without being greatly unbalanced. They don´t care about defence stats, about turns in a battle, about anything - it´s flat, free damage.

We are talking about minuscule damage. As in 5-10 hp per unit. Damage which would be even less if it had to be spread out across 8 units as opposed to 6.



We have to take into consideration that the radius of the tower is very small and that an army needs to start its turn in its area of effect for damage to be applied. It is quite easy to avoid them, and especially avoiding getting hit by them twice. So they should deal a bit more damage than that, during the rare occasions that they can.

How can I put this? The same way Fortifications alone are not supposed to stop a large invading army, Towers alone are not supposed to damage a large invading army. 10 hp on a 200 hp unit is 5% damage for free. The enemy army can choose to not stop near it, but that´s their point - to reduce movement options and to make invading a more expensive business. If an enemy army chooses to take the damage, and both armies are on equal footing, then -5%~-3% health is an advantage. If your armies are not equal footing, the towers must not be strong enough to be the balancing factor. The superiority of the defence over the offence presumes armies with the same capabilities.



I´m not here arguing they are the best investment for pearls, or just as good as other things - they´re not. But there will always be things that are better and things that are worse, even among valid things. And I think it´s prefferable if pearls were responsible for better economic investments than military ones, just like I´d preffer defensive towers to be a little underwhelming than for them to be extremely annoying. If they´re more worth it than other economic bonuses, then you´d start to see every cult with 10% of their territory made up of free-damage-dealing tiles.

BPrado wrote:
How can I put this?

There is a difference between being ineffective and being useless. The way I see it, the chances of them affecting the outcome of a battle as of now are so minuscule as to be negligible. There has to be a middle ground between "complete and utter waste of resources" and "doom towers of death," right?

Am I the only one who is finding them really weak? I have them upgraded, but they do so little damage that the enemy army regenerated the whole damage dealt the next turn.



Their damage needs to be buffed, imo. Because as of yet, they are only viable if you have a hero increasing the power of all defensive improvements through accessories, which shouldn't be the case (this should just make them more potent, not just viable).



EDIT: Thanks to Cat-o-nine-tales, I've realized that tower damage is dependent on city fortification and not their own. Since there are many ways to increase city fortification, and thus increase tower damage, I now think that towers are fine as they are.

Defense tools are already very insuffisant compared to offense.



Because units are super fast and the moral effect is not enough.





What I propose is (but I don't think I will be listened) :



- Suppress any health regeneration when units siege a city.

- Add +200 % fortification damages to all system (any system, towers or the building).

- Auto inflict these damages at any unit who begin to siege the city (so one time when they begin it, and one time when the next turn begin).

- Each advanced defense tower (the tower which need to be at winter 3, which cost a lot of pearls) in a region decrease by 1 the moral of any ennemy unit present in the region, for any tower (so it can be -4 if you got 4 advanced defensive tower) (so any ennemy at war, neutrals or yellow unit).



With these measures, there will be a real choice between scout tower and defensive towers. Because today, as scout towers give vision and detection and cost no pearls, it will be really interesting and regions may be transformed into true great fortress.

lol implement jojo´s suggestions then and watch auriga become legoland.

I think Jojo's suggestions are very excessive (no offence).



The first tower has 10 fortification and deals 0.3 damage per fortification, aka 3 damage which is spread to all units of an army (I think it's not divided? If it is, that is a pathetic amount of damage). The 2nd, has 20 fortification and deals 0.5 damage per fortification, aka 10 damage.



What I suggest is for the first tower to have 15 fortification and to deal 0.5 damage per fortification, aka 7.5 (rounded up to 8). And for the 2nd tower to have 20 fortification and to deal 0.75 per fortification, aka 15.

Some small attrition damage each turn seems reasonable; what's not reasonable is being able to fully heal it. These towers should stop healing while in their area of effect.

I have to say, and I have said so from day one in this forum - I agree with anyone saying this game needs to reduce army healing.



But I´m firmly against increasing free damage to make up for excess healing. I think the pearl Wards are pretty much exactly what this game has always needed in terms of city defence. Damage from Defensive Towers, for me, is just sweet topping.

Back up a second folks...



Where are the Pearl Towers?



Are you referring to the Tower of Truth and the Tower of Fidelity?



Regards.



Marc

Yes Marc, that's what I'm referring to.



Tower radius removing regeneration is actually a cool idea. It could help cement its role as a tool of attrition.