Shifters - Winter Voting Strategy

BPrado

Newcomer

3 000g2g pts

9 years ago

Apr 15, 2016, 3:55:25 PM

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
As the Allayi, I have found that you should avoid voting for extending the ice shelf. You are the only faction that starts with shipfaring, and so voting for the ice shelf would remove a strategic advantage that you have.

I think this is relative. If you have rivers, then that´s right, but in case you only have lakes and coastal tiles, you really want that Ice Works to kick in as fast as possible.

Sublustris

Lore Guardian

Line your necks up, monsters. I just sharpened my sword.

Sublustris

Lore Guardian

9 years ago

Jul 20, 2016, 4:51:22 PM

Ok, now,

Winter effect duplicating

AUTOSAVE - TURN 98.zip

Here we are looking at "Borders are temporary opened" effect being applied already, but got to "upcoming" pool again.

And while we are at it, I had another bug with "remotuscope factory" upgrade (from "enlightened trade" research). I've skipped "highway outposts" research, so I didn't had "lookout towers", so my built watchtowers from "imperial highways" never got the automatic "remotuscope" upgrade. Here's a save file just one turn before "enlightened trade" research unlock so you could see it yourself.

AUTOSAVE - TURN 131.zip

DEVFrogsquadron

Broken

Frogsquadron / François (\franswa\) "I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas."

DEVFrogsquadron

Broken

52 300g2g pts

9 years ago

Jul 20, 2016, 10:20:04 AM

Click "Reply" and the file icon button (next to the camera icon). This will let you attach a file.

Sublustris

Lore Guardian

Line your necks up, monsters. I just sharpened my sword.

Sublustris

Lore Guardian

9 years ago

Jul 12, 2016, 6:37:01 PM

Since the last forum had god awful tracking capabilities, I've never knew I was actually replied, lol.

I have another save from current play-through, where this bug is present. Now, how do I attach files?

DEVPikou

Dev

DEVPikou

Dev

19 600g2g pts

9 years ago

Apr 18, 2016, 10:32:53 AM

The issue reported by Sublustris about the winter effect applying twice is clearly a bug.

When we look at it we cannot see any problem in the system because if an effect is picked once it should be erased from the list of next winter effects.

In order to understand the issue do you still have the save available?

It will help us a lot to fix this.

Thanks a lot in advance!

DEVwilbefast

Lost Dev

Something is afoot at the end of my leg!

DEVwilbefast

Lost Dev

37 000g2g pts

9 years ago

Apr 18, 2016, 10:04:21 AM

Sublustris wrote:
These are not similar. These are identical.

I have zero assimilation cost as the result.

I can confirm that, as there is only one effect which applies SeasonEffectSpecial1, this is a bug. I will forward it on to our tame gameplay programmer.

johnyoga wrote:
Developers, the Save File should be attached.

Hi Marc - Allayi faction in the save does not have the shipyard trait. For the record here is what the base Allayi faction looks like:

When Shipyard is removed from the list you can find it again under "starting technology":

Updated 9 years ago.

VIPKnightofPhoenix

Empire VIP

"One can only match, move by move, the machinations of Fate...and thus defy the tyrannous stars." - Kain

VIPKnightofPhoenix

Empire VIP

9 years ago

Apr 17, 2016, 5:51:41 PM

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
S

I also believe the increasing costs are working as intended.

In the first few turns of summer, all factions will vote, trying to get the effects they want. But anybody with a good stock of pearls can return a few turns later, when nobody else is checking the votes, and push it over the edge in their favor again. The Allayi can even do that on the very last turn of summer.

Sure, that last vote might cost you a chunk of pearls, but I think that's a reasonable price for messing with your enemy, e.g. throwing in two last minute votes to change the effect from "-1 food per tile" to "-25% Dust on city" to screw with the Broken Lords.

The Allayi knowing exactly when summer ends and winter starts gives them a clear advantage in "sniping" for effects. Prayers is one of the most dynamic and fun aspects of the game now.

And effects that were previously voted for start coming back again, so I did get a sense that even losing votes, in the long run, matter. Which is quite cool.

VIPThe-Cat-o-Nine-Tales

Shifter

VIPThe-Cat-o-Nine-Tales

Shifter

58 400g2g pts

9 years ago

Apr 17, 2016, 3:20:31 PM

johnyoga wrote:
The Developers were asking if there was a glitch in the game regarding the Shipyards. I am showing them that I did not "take away" Shipyards from the Custom Faction List, as it isn't there to begin with.

Developers, the Save File should be attached.

Please inform.

Regards,

Marc

Unfortunately, your screenshot is not enough to show that, for two reasons.

1. The traits on your list are not the standard Allayi traits. In fact, the selection of traits does not match any premade faction, so it is clearly an already customized list.

2. The list of traits you can pick on the left ends at "Arcana of Matter," so approximately 14 lines above where the Shipyard Starting Technology would show up in that list.

Perhaps this is a simple misunderstanding, though: Starting with shipyard is a trait that the premade Allayi faction gets, but it is not one of the "faction-defining" traits marked with a laurel. To find it, you either need to switch to the "Starting Technology" category by clicking on it to the very left, or you need to scroll down a good bit further in the list on the left. It is among the traits marked with a flask and an exclamation mark.

johnyoga

Newcomer

johnyoga

Newcomer

9 years ago

Apr 17, 2016, 2:21:16 PM

The Developers were asking if there was a glitch in the game regarding the Shipyards. I am showing them that I did not "take away" Shipyards from the Custom Faction List, as it isn't there to begin with.

Developers, the Save File should be attached.

Please inform.

Regards,

Marc
MARC AND DAVID - Turn 59.zip

VIPThe-Cat-o-Nine-Tales

Shifter

VIPThe-Cat-o-Nine-Tales

Shifter

58 400g2g pts

9 years ago

Apr 17, 2016, 12:49:21 PM

Shipyard should not be in the faded portion of the Allayi traits, as those are all parts of the affinity, whereas getting Shipyard as a starting technology is only part of their "standard trait selection" and can be customized. I would suggest trying to create a new custom faction after pre-selecting the core Allayi, so that all standard traits are pre-picked when you enter the custom faction screen. If Shipyard doesn't show up on the right for you then, something is wrong. Also, if you scroll down on the left side or go to "Starting Technologies" category for the custom faction in your screenshot, you might find it on the left.

It's working just fine for me, though.

Now, as far as voting strategies are concerned, I agree with the others: Always vote for the one that hurts everybody else (or at least your worst enemies) more than yourself if you can afford it. If it would cripple you as well, vote for the one that hurts you least.

And never underestimate the extended ice shelf. I believe there are three different effects that extend it, and covering a 6 tile gap is substantial. I have played one game on an islands map in which boat technology became obsolete in winter.

I also believe the increasing costs are working as intended.

In the first few turns of summer, all factions will vote, trying to get the effects they want. But anybody with a good stock of pearls can return a few turns later, when nobody else is checking the votes, and push it over the edge in their favor again. The Allayi can even do that on the very last turn of summer.

Sure, that last vote might cost you a chunk of pearls, but I think that's a reasonable price for messing with your enemy, e.g. throwing in two last minute votes to change the effect from "-1 food per tile" to "-25% Dust on city" to screw with the Broken Lords.

johnyoga

Newcomer

johnyoga

Newcomer

9 years ago

Apr 16, 2016, 6:43:42 PM

This is what the Allayi Custom Faction start (edit) may look like. There is no Shipyard to take off the list.

In other words, Shipyard is not in the faded portion of the Custom Faction list for the Allayi. If this is, in fact, a given tech to them from the start, then the custom faction screen should already have that listed as one of the shaded items. Therefore using the Allayi as the affinity faction already loses one of it's specialty features: Shipyard.

Regards,

Marc

eXistenZ

Trainee

eXistenZ

Trainee

9 years ago

Apr 16, 2016, 6:44:21 AM

wilbefast wrote:
Oh dear Saves please folks!

Are you sure this isn't a case of the water tiles being inaccessible because of a cliff? Also if you're using a custom Allayi without Shipyard then you won't start with ships.

Ill upload a save later, but It was just an inland lake, next to my city, and I could normally acces it with my units, which turned them into boats.

Like said, it was an exploited ile, dont know if that matters (standard allayi)

Sublustris

Lore Guardian

Line your necks up, monsters. I just sharpened my sword.

Sublustris

Lore Guardian

9 years ago

Apr 15, 2016, 8:21:26 PM

wilbefast wrote:
An effect that has been applied is removed, but we have multiple copies of similar effects that will stack.

These are not similar. These are identical.

I have zero assimilation cost as the result.

BPrado

Newcomer

BPrado

Newcomer

3 000g2g pts

9 years ago

Apr 15, 2016, 7:55:36 PM

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
I was under the impression that Ice Works kicked in regardless of the effect, as coastal tiles freeze anyways (they just don't become an ice shelf without the effect). But I didn't actually test it out yet.

I thought so too at first, but turns out they only really freeze if the effect is there.

VIPKnightofPhoenix

Empire VIP

"One can only match, move by move, the machinations of Fate...and thus defy the tyrannous stars." - Kain

VIPKnightofPhoenix

Empire VIP

9 years ago

Apr 15, 2016, 5:00:39 PM

BPrado wrote:
I think this is relative. If you have rivers, then that´s right, but in case you only have lakes and coastal tiles, you really want that Ice Works to kick in as fast as possible.

I was under the impression that Ice Works kicked in regardless of the effect, as coastal tiles freeze anyways (they just don't become an ice shelf without the effect). But I didn't actually test it out yet.

EDIT: Actually, you're right, it specifies that it works only on ice shelf. In which case, yes you would want to vote for extending the ice shelf if you have a coastal city or two.

zeroisnine

Newcomer

zeroisnine

Newcomer

100g2g pts

9 years ago

Apr 13, 2016, 2:06:06 PM

Does anyone have any general strategy for this facet of the expansion? I'm not normally big on trading/diplomacy, but since I'm kind of inherently part of it, I figure I should try to get a handle on it.

DEVwilbefast

Lost Dev

Something is afoot at the end of my leg!

DEVwilbefast

Lost Dev

37 000g2g pts

9 years ago

Apr 15, 2016, 7:52:23 AM

johnyoga wrote:
My Allayi have no seafaring ability. Two separate games and they can't go even one hex off the coast, let alone more than that. They can't walk on lakes; nada. This is weird. Either I am completely misunderstanding the mechanic, or, when I customize the faction the game subtracted that ability from the list (but I didn't see anything being subtracted).

eXistenZ wrote:
Thats weird, cause I had a small lake, and there were shelfs, and my units became ships

Oh dear

Saves please folks!

Are you sure this isn't a case of the water tiles being inaccessible because of a cliff? Also if you're using a custom Allayi without Shipyard then you won't start with ships.

Sublustris wrote:
I don't like the fact, that winning effect isn't removed from the poll for the next vote. I've had same effect chosen twice in 3 winters. Not only this stacking might hurt, it also lists multiple times in winter effects list, instead of showing accumulated value of the effect.

An effect that has been applied is removed, but we have multiple copies of similar effects that will stack.

johnyoga

Newcomer

johnyoga

Newcomer

9 years ago

Apr 13, 2016, 7:45:41 PM

Thanks, Knight. I bet that is the case. m

VIPKnightofPhoenix

Empire VIP

"One can only match, move by move, the machinations of Fate...and thus defy the tyrannous stars." - Kain

VIPKnightofPhoenix

Empire VIP

9 years ago

Apr 13, 2016, 7:27:35 PM

johnyoga wrote:
My Allayi have no seafaring ability. Two separate games and they can't go even one hex off the coast, let alone more than that. They can't walk on lakes; nada. This is weird. Either I am completely misunderstanding the mechanic, or, when I customize the faction the game subtracted that ability from the list (but I didn't see anything being subtracted).

It's probably a bug pertaining to customization. Vanilla Allayi definitely have it.

eXistenZ

Trainee

eXistenZ

Trainee

9 years ago

Apr 13, 2016, 7:22:40 PM

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
That must be a bug.

The "turn into ship//wave" icon popped up. It was a lake tile next to a district (so it was being exploited), i dont know if that counts

johnyoga

Newcomer

johnyoga

Newcomer

9 years ago

Apr 13, 2016, 7:15:54 PM

My Allayi have no seafaring ability. Two separate games and they can't go even one hex off the coast, let alone more than that. They can't walk on lakes; nada. This is weird. Either I am completely misunderstanding the mechanic, or, when I customize the faction the game subtracted that ability from the list (but I didn't see anything being subtracted).

VIPKnightofPhoenix

Empire VIP

"One can only match, move by move, the machinations of Fate...and thus defy the tyrannous stars." - Kain

VIPKnightofPhoenix

Empire VIP

9 years ago

Apr 13, 2016, 7:15:30 PM

That must be a bug.

eXistenZ

Trainee

eXistenZ

Trainee

9 years ago

Apr 13, 2016, 7:06:57 PM

KnightofPhoenix wrote:

No, you walk on the ice shelf. But if it melts, then you automatically embark (factions don't have seafaring just sink).

Thats weird, cause I had a small lake, and there were shelfs, and my units became ships

VIPKnightofPhoenix

Empire VIP

"One can only match, move by move, the machinations of Fate...and thus defy the tyrannous stars." - Kain

VIPKnightofPhoenix

Empire VIP

9 years ago

Apr 13, 2016, 7:04:37 PM

johnyoga wrote:

Excuse my ignorance: But if that is the case, then why can't my units pick up pearls that are one hex off the coast? Wouldn't I, therefore, need the ice shelf modifier initially?

The Allayi should be able to embark on the sea at turn 1 and get those pearls off the coast.

eXistenZ wrote:
Thats a thing I still dont quite understand: if you have seafaring, you sail through ice shelfs? Thats what it looked like to me when I played the Allayi

No, you walk on the ice shelf. But if it melts, then you automatically embark (factions don't have seafaring just sink).

eXistenZ

Trainee

eXistenZ

Trainee

9 years ago

Apr 13, 2016, 6:51:52 PM

KnightofPhoenix wrote:

As the Allayi, I have found that you should avoid voting for extending the ice shelf. You are the only faction that starts with shipfaring, and so voting for the ice shelf would remove a strategic advantage that you have. .

Thats a thing I still dont quite understand: if you have seafaring, you sail through ice shelfs? Thats what it looked like to me when I played the Allayi

johnyoga

Newcomer

johnyoga

Newcomer

9 years ago

Apr 13, 2016, 6:37:09 PM

"As the Allayi, I have found that you should avoid voting for extending the ice shelf. You are the only faction that starts with shipfaring, and so voting for the ice shelf would remove a strategic advantage that you have."

Excuse my ignorance: But if that is the case, then why can't my units pick up pearls that are one hex off the coast? Wouldn't I, therefore, need the ice shelf modifier initially?

Marc

VIPKnightofPhoenix

Empire VIP

"One can only match, move by move, the machinations of Fate...and thus defy the tyrannous stars." - Kain

VIPKnightofPhoenix

Empire VIP

9 years ago

Apr 13, 2016, 5:50:15 PM

In addition, if I understand things correctly, the effects that are not applied but have received votes, will be saved in the pool and will re-occur with the previous votes still applying. So as Allayi, it might be worth it to not only vote for an effect you want applied now, but to also invest some pearls to vote for another effect that you like so that it might show up again.

I am not exactly sure what the mechanics of winter voting are yet, but it is, in my opinion, one of the most fun, strategic, and dynamic parts of the game.

Sublustris

Lore Guardian

Line your necks up, monsters. I just sharpened my sword.

Sublustris

Lore Guardian

9 years ago

Apr 13, 2016, 2:48:00 PM

I don't like the fact, that winning effect isn't removed from the poll for the next vote. I've had same effect chosen twice in 3 winters. Not only this stacking might hurt, it also lists multiple times in winter effects list, instead of showing accumulated value of the effect.

As for the strategy, I find that no amount of pearls worth spending for voting at the end of the summer. You should either vote acceptable amount during first 1-3 summer turns, or accept, that you'll have undesired effect next winter. Pearls are already precious enough as they are without voting.

Unless voting cost for late summer reduced significantly, space for strategy is low there.

BPrado

Newcomer

BPrado

Newcomer

3 000g2g pts

9 years ago

Apr 13, 2016, 2:35:14 PM

If you´re really interested in any of the benefits for the next winter, decide so right after the winter is over (have to always rememeber to check). That way you can spend like 8 pearls on 8 votes making the vote simply unachiavable for anyone else to manipulate it.

Allayi wants all the combat reductions to winter. I would even suggest that these are always available to them, since they´re quite game changing and it´s one of the few things they have going on for them.

VIPKnightofPhoenix

Empire VIP

"One can only match, move by move, the machinations of Fate...and thus defy the tyrannous stars." - Kain

VIPKnightofPhoenix

Empire VIP

9 years ago

Apr 13, 2016, 2:17:44 PM

Great topic, and seemingly a bit undervalued.

From what I understand, the effects are cumulative. Once voted for, they will be continuously applied for every successive winter. So the impact is quite large.

Some strategies are obvious, for some factions. As Broken Lords, you want to vote for food reduction effects so that everyone suffers but you, while you make sure to avoid dust reducing ones.

As the Allayi, I have found that you should avoid voting for extending the ice shelf. You are the only faction that starts with shipfaring, and so voting for the ice shelf would remove a strategic advantage that you have. I have also found that voting for reduction of effects per pop would hurt you less than it would for other factions, as you rely little on high pop anyways. Inversely, you should avoid general or percentage effect reductions. I would also avoid any food or science reducing ones.

I have found it useful to vote for one reducing luxury resource production but increasing strategics, as I was using my skyfins to harvest the former but using extractors to get the latter. Since high level skyfins already harvest a significant amount of luxuries, I found it marginal for their production to be reduced by one (not to mention that playing tall means less luxuries needed for boosters).

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