Maverik wrote:
Hi, I come to report certain specific AI problems I have encountered in my last games. Bring some images to accompany.

Thanks for reporting those, but you might want to refer to the technical support section directly: providing the usual files (link) and game saves will help us fix those issues. Being specific is interesting and very helpful, but the main purpose of this thread is indeed to provide feedback on the AI and pinpoint areas where it could be doing better.

As Steph'nie has mentioned, some of these things are just bugs. I'll reply to the more nebulous "this could be improved" type comments though:

Maverik wrote:


AI founds a city on a border, this is almost always a bad idea, because you do not take the whole territory, also does not try to develop a sense for Level 2 districts.

The city of the image its probably not better example, I see worst places every time.

City and district placement is something we'd like to look into in the near-ish future.

Maverik wrote:


I can assume that this settler was preparing to colonize a region in the north, but another faction was faster and could not colonize on time. What was your reaction? It stood there 20-30 turns, even when loading game was still there. This does not make much sense. I do not remember when or why just leaving (I did not attack him).

This is a known issue: a settler whose mission is interrupted is currently not recalled until a new mission to settle a new region is generated. This is one of those issue we'd really like to fix, but which would take more time to fix than other, even more important improvements.

Maverik wrote:


Cultist villages.



I cannot understand, Why the cultists do not use the armies of the villages, I have seen on many occasions as the city was under siege, and had large armies from neighboring villages, and during all shifts that lasted the siege not never used, when they could easily win the battle. In the end they lost the city without using those armies at all.

Cultists do use their villages' armies in theory - if this is not the case then it's a bug.

Maverik wrote:


Technology of roads and trade routes.



They are technologies with a huge benefit for mobility and economic bonds simple valid for almost all factions (Not for cultist or islands). Why the IA never investigated and build this? ( I think it's a mistake and help them much in the mobility of the armies)



I always build roads in the conquered cities because they never have.

They are researched/built sometimes, but players' complaints that the AI is not a contender on the military front have led us to stress military technologies in Era II. We're considering of doing a pass on the weights of technologies/improvements in the mid-term. Personalities will also let us stress different technologies depending on the faction. If there are any other technologies or buildings you feel are under/over used please let us know!

Teslaflux wrote:
Here are several save from my game. Also the Roving Clan Ai is very passive, maybe because I blocked it a bit(it can still expand southwards(which it has done later) but was so passive I ignored it completly).

My goal in this game was more or less to get the quest or the wonder victory but I was a bit slow (and wiping out the Necrophages doesn´t help because I need to be not in war and cold war seems to count for this quest as war, which makes sense). I never attacked somebody until I had to.





https://www.mediafire.com/folder/fnydekp1ephtt/AI-Drakken_game





It seems that the Cult and the Forgotten were at war because I just noticed that the Forgotten were defeated(I don´t know when they died)

I'm having trouble opening the turn 240 save, but on turn 163 the Forgotten (light blue) have already expanded a reasonable amount. I'm assuming you means the Roving Clans, the dark green empire:







The issue seems to be the AI's perceiving the thin strip of water between itself and Masuarim/Forany as a continental divide, which is clearly (to a human brain in any case) incorrect. Thanks for the save, it will be useful for fixing this

wilbefast wrote:


They are researched/built sometimes, but players' complaints that the AI is not a contender on the military front have led us to stress military technologies in Era II. We're considering of doing a pass on the weights of technologies/improvements in the mid-term. Personalities will also let us stress different technologies depending on the faction. If there are any other technologies or buildings you feel are under/over used please let us know!

I played Endless Legend a lot around release and have played a few games again after Shadows released. You've created a fantastic game and I've enjoyed playing across the factions. However, the military AI needs a lot of work. Technology based on personality is great but there are some technologies that are so important that any AI should prioritise them highly, particularly given how important a reasonable military is for any faction to survive far less thrive.



Here are my top three that seems inadequately prioritised by the AI.



The first problem is that my army is almost always larger, and often significantly larger, than the AI. The technologies that provide army size bonuses are key, Meritocratic Promotion and Signal Corps, and they should be some of the first technologies any AI researches in the relevant Eras.



The second problem is that the AI units always seem relatively weak. I doubt they give weapons/armor/accessories technologies enough focus. The approach I take is to skip Tier 1 Glassteel/Titanium Weapons, Armor and Accessories entirely but as soon as Era II hits, focus on Tier 2 Glassteel/Titanium Weapons, Armor and Accessories and then upgrade everything as quickly as possible depending on the resources available.



When Era III hits the Dust technologies are massively important and are always high priority. The extra Dust would allow the AI could field larger armies more quickly as well as help achieve other goals.

wilbefast wrote:


I'm having trouble opening the turn 240 save, but on turn 163 the Forgotten (light blue) have already expanded a reasonable amount. I'm assuming you means the Roving Clans, the dark green empire:







The issue seems to be the AI's perceiving the thin strip of water between itself and Masuarim/Forany as a continental divide, which is clearly (to a human brain in any case) incorrect. Thanks for the save, it will be useful for fixing this

Ah ok, then I wasn´t paying enough attention to the Forgotten and when I saw enough of the second continent the Cultists have conquered several cities of the Forgotten and only the capital was left.

I updated the folder with some more saves of the game. I don´t know if it helps. But I have one question in the lastest save game I conquered the last Necrophage city(or so I think) but they are still alive and I can see their last city, is there a bug or didn´t I see them?

(also I noticed a bug when I first won the game via an economic victory(and the achievment) and when I reloaded a autosave after the victory I received the scientific victory and another achievment for this victory, should I make a seperat thread for it or is this an known bug?)

Manu wrote:




So, after reading your suggestions, I can conclude that the IA should:

...
• Being able to not include reinforcements if the battle seems to be doomed
  
  

Thank you a lot and keep the feedback coming!

This thread is quite long and someone may have replied to this point already, but the item quoted above is not quite as simple as stated above. As shown in one of the early posts the issue is that you can take out the militia in one battle and then take the city with a separate army if you attack a nearby army and the militia are used to support it. But this does not rely on having to WIN the first battle. In fact, you could initiate a battle you know you will lose but as long as you can take out the militia, even if you don't kill anything else, it leaves the city completely open to a free invasion from your other army that same turn with no combat even if the other enemy army is still alive nearby. Note that this only works when the enemy army is not within the target city, but it's still an AI strategy issue.

Teslaflux wrote:
Ah ok, then I wasn´t paying enough attention to the Forgotten and when I saw enough of the second continent the Cultists have conquered several cities of the Forgotten and only the capital was left.

I updated the folder with some more saves of the game. I don´t know if it helps. But I have one question in the lastest save game I conquered the last Necrophage city(or so I think) but they are still alive and I can see their last city, is there a bug or didn´t I see them?

(also I noticed a bug when I first won the game via an economic victory(and the achievment) and when I reloaded a autosave after the victory I received the scientific victory and another achievment for this victory, should I make a seperat thread for it or is this an known bug?)

You should make a separate thread for this on the support forum. Also - you can upload files directly to the forums, no need to use an external service like MediaFire



See below:

bobthe wrote:
This thread is quite long and someone may have replied to this point already, but the item quoted above is not quite as simple as stated above. As shown in one of the early posts the issue is that you can take out the militia in one battle and then take the city with a separate army if you attack a nearby army and the militia are used to support it. But this does not rely on having to WIN the first battle. In fact, you could initiate a battle you know you will lose but as long as you can take out the militia, even if you don't kill anything else, it leaves the city completely open to a free invasion from your other army that same turn with no combat even if the other enemy army is still alive nearby. Note that this only works when the enemy army is not within the target city, but it's still an AI strategy issue.

Good point. Militia and garrison should then perhaps be treated as a separate case? Be less likely to reinforce battles where they are likely to be a lot of casualties on the friendly side? Hmm...

wilbefast wrote:
You should make a separate thread for this on the support forum. Also - you can upload files directly to the forums, no need to use an external service like MediaFire

See below:

I had always trouble using a similar function in other forums so I used to use sites like media fire. But I will remember it for the future.

Just played my first game on a large map for a while and half the A.I's have hardly expanded 350 turns in.Not good at all. Either they cannot deal with local minors or are not prioritizing settlers.



Another thing I notice is the A.I does not seem to be very active in diplomacy.I have alliances,peace treaties with everybody and most of them are stuck in cold war.This gives a huge advantage to the player.

Credit where it's due:



Diplomatic AI related to strategic and luxury resources looks great. I haven't seen any wacky valuations. Thanks!

I had the game where Cultists were having unconverted village (having 10 enemies when I found it), sitting right beside their city.

I was playing with Hard monsters, but it mostly affects how the neutral monsters scale with time, aka there would be 0 problems cleansing that village on the turn 0 with starting army.

Strigvir wrote:
I had the game where Cultists were having unconverted village (having 10 enemies when I found it), sitting right beside their city.

I was playing with Hard monsters, but it mostly affects how the neutral monsters scale with time, aka there would be 0 problems cleansing that village on the turn 0 with starting army.

Ashbery76 wrote:
Just played my first game on a large map for a while and half the A.I's have hardly expanded 350 turns in.Not good at all. Either they cannot deal with local minors or are not prioritizing settlers.



Another thing I notice is the A.I does not seem to be very active in diplomacy.I have alliances,peace treaties with everybody and most of them are stuck in cold war.This gives a huge advantage to the player.

Saves please guys

natev wrote:
Credit where it's due:



Diplomatic AI related to strategic and luxury resources looks great. I haven't seen any wacky valuations. Thanks!

Yeah, should be fixed in 1.2.2

I just finished a game on a huge map, with another seven empires, achieving a diplomatic victory on hard, and I must note that the AI's understanding of the value of certain luxury resources seemed "off" even with the newest patches and updates. I was basically able to have them go to war with one another for as little as 5 or 10 of a luxury resource, and "buy" alliances with empires I'd only recently been in war with for as little as 2-3 dustwater. It made things too easy, since I had ~500 dustwater. Then again, the diplomatic system has been known to be hard for the AI to navigate properly.



Also, it seems the AI can't figure out ever how to handle the Cultists. Had only converted 6-7 villages by turn 120 or so; I was bewildered. The difficulty settings still seem to rely a bit too much on bonuses rather than actually challenging AI - though I am well aware that the devs are working on that and I am very pleased it's been the focus of their latest efforts.

Yes diplomacy has still a long way to go. The AI's understanding of market value and use of resources is pretty weak.



In addition, the AI is completely incapable of maintaining a peace treaty or alliance even when it is clearly to its benefit. In fact, it is incapable of knowing what is beneficial to it. I had the Roving Clans be under attack from both the Drakken and the Broken Lords. I extended a peace offer, and had to bribe them to accept it, only for them to reject it a few turns later, market ban me, and pillage me while its cities were under siege. When you're already in a 2 front war, one would think you shouldn't antagonize a third party and try instead to befriend them.



Alliances rarely happen between AIs, and are rarely long lasting. The AI's inability to evaluate the balance of power is glaring. Weaker factions that are under attack should seek allies, not antagonize others for no reason.



EDIT: I suspect the pillaging mechanic screwed up diplomacy even more, in fact. The AI seems to pillage for the sake of it, without taking into consideration that it would piss off the other. I've only played one Shadows game, but I've not had a single alliance or peace happen between anyone. That is unusual compared to vanilla, you'd get the occasional peace treaty and alliance. But now, I suspect the AI pillages left and right and so makes diplomacy even less relevant.

wilbefast wrote:
Saves please guys

Not exactly the same situation (the one I was talking about had the fully filled neutral village sitting right beside their city center), but close enough: Necrophages - Cultists.zip

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
EDIT: I suspect the pillaging mechanic screwed up diplomacy even more, in fact. The AI seems to pillage for the sake of it, without taking into consideration that it would piss off the other. I've only played one Shadows game, but I've not had a single alliance or peace happen between anyone. That is unusual compared to vanilla, you'd get the occasional peace treaty and alliance. But now, I suspect the AI pillages left and right and so makes diplomacy even less relevant.

Yeah, AI seems to think pillaging my stuff is OK and will not result in retaliation. Examples: AI takes a boat over to my lands and begins pillaging. When killed, becomes 'Leery' due to 'Aggression During Cold War.' Other AI stands on his region and begins pillaging my resource. Warning does not deter him, and closed borders don't force him to declare war. When I march a superior army over, he still does not back off. Neither declares war though - they just seem to want to test my willingness to fight.



However, I did have a game a few weeks ago in which pillaging AI ran away when my army showed up. Haven't seen that behavior since though.



AI should treat Vaulters with high military score as not worth pillaging, IMO. You know they can get to you and that they will win, so why do it unless you want war?

Strigvir wrote:
Not exactly the same situation (the one I was talking about had the fully filled neutral village sitting right beside their city center), but close enough: Necrophages - Cultists.zip

Cheers, we'll take a look!

EMW wrote:
Yeah, AI seems to think pillaging my stuff is OK and will not result in retaliation. Examples: AI takes a boat over to my lands and begins pillaging. When killed, becomes 'Leery' due to 'Aggression During Cold War.' Other AI stands on his region and begins pillaging my resource. Warning does not deter him, and closed borders don't force him to declare war. When I march a superior army over, he still does not back off. Neither declares war though - they just seem to want to test my willingness to fight.



However, I did have a game a few weeks ago in which pillaging AI ran away when my army showed up. Haven't seen that behavior since though.



AI should treat Vaulters with high military score as not worth pillaging, IMO. You know they can get to you and that they will win, so why do it unless you want war?

Currently the AI will take into account how friendly it is with the empire it is considering pillaging, but not necessarily how much it wants to go to war with them. The feeling was that you should need to want to declare war on someone to go steal their stuff. Then again the military power should perhaps be taken into account more: currently it plays a role only indirectly, as AIs will want to be at peace with empires with a superior military power. If the relation has been hereto indifferent though fear perhaps doesn't play a sufficient role...

Yeah, I don't think the current relationship should be taken into account as much as the proximity of troops. If the AI sees an army approach its pillagers, it should evaluate whether retreat or continued pillaging is the best option.



In the game where I did see a retreat, I had already killed a lot of pillagers from several AI empires. Finally one of them gave his guys detection trinkets and decided that it wasn't worth it to stay put.



This kind of fits under the broader problem of the AI wasting production by creating troops that just get murdered.

Icemania wrote:
I played Endless Legend a lot around release and have played a few games again after Shadows released. You've created a fantastic game and I've enjoyed playing across the factions. However, the military AI needs a lot of work. Technology based on personality is great but there are some technologies that are so important that any AI should prioritise them highly, particularly given how important a reasonable military is for any faction to survive far less thrive.



Here are my top three that seems inadequately prioritised by the AI.



The first problem is that my army is almost always larger, and often significantly larger, than the AI. The technologies that provide army size bonuses are key, Meritocratic Promotion and Signal Corps, and they should be some of the first technologies any AI researches in the relevant Eras.



The second problem is that the AI units always seem relatively weak. I doubt they give weapons/armor/accessories technologies enough focus. The approach I take is to skip Tier 1 Glassteel/Titanium Weapons, Armor and Accessories entirely but as soon as Era II hits, focus on Tier 2 Glassteel/Titanium Weapons, Armor and Accessories and then upgrade everything as quickly as possible depending on the resources available.



When Era III hits the Dust technologies are massively important and are always high priority. The extra Dust would allow the AI could field larger armies more quickly as well as help achieve other goals.

Just to supplement another technology I consider key towards the back end of Era I is the Mercenary Market specifically to get access to Heroes. My initial starting units individually go in different directions to explore ruins then have enough cash to get another Hero quite quickly. Typically that Hero would be the best option to optimize growth/production or science in your starting city. Once minors start to spawn armies this becomes dangerous so that would be the trigger for the AI recombine into an army to avoid unnecessary losses.



The ultimate goal should be both to improve the AI and also reduce the bonuses across the difficulty levels.

To add a bit to the pillaging discussion, I do sometimes see pillaging armies run when I approach but sometimes they do not. More confusingly, the same army will sometimes run and then suddenly stand its ground. I also think there's a problem with the AI's determination of relative strength. Sometimes the AI engages when they will just get demolished. I also often have a hard time relying on the combat outcome estimate, but at least it tends to skew similarly for similar types of units. Ogres, for example, are always shown as very difficult even though they're generally pushovers.

I was spying on AI's city for entry game and noticed the AI started to build cryiometric monitor, but in the mean time they conquered a city from another AI which *probably* already contains that building, and since then the AI was not able to finish the construction since cryionic monitor is limited to one copy in empire. and thus the city was "blocked" for the entry game as you can see in image below:







I suppose the same would happen for other buildings which are limited to 1 copy.