Hello !



I have been reading all about the minor factions and it called my attention the rule that does not allow you to have more than 3 minor factions.



First, I do not really see the "excuse" or explanation for that, is like if in Endless space you had a max of 10 owned planets, it just does not make sense to me.



From the other side, I found interesting the point of having to left minor faction in other to take another, as that adds decision and complexity to the game.



So after giving it a some thought I came up with an alternative that I think would give more life and freedom to the game. I think it would be much cooler not to have a limit of 3 minor factions, but instead make the factions have "disputes" or "relations" between themselves. Meaning that for example the dwarfs could hate the Trolls and so you could not have both factions at the same time. From the other side, you could also develop technologies in the "diplomacy" tree that could allow you to deal with it and have factions that hate each other under your control simultaneously.



This would give more personality and life to the factions, as they could also fight each other, giving you the option to support one or the other by destroying its enemy faction and so gaining its control with all his towns intact.



Also it could even be a kind of play style, to specialize yourself in gathering a lot of minor factions by using diplomacy and using them against your enemy. Like an aggressive diplomacy style.



So... What du ya tink !?



EDIT:

As the system is right now you can "get" the minor factions by diplomacy (slow but more advantages ) or force (faster but with less advantages). But by adding this, if you start near minor factions that hate each other is not necessarily worst than starting near friendly factions, as you could kill one of them by force, getting the full support of the other, having then the advantages of both the diplomacy and force approach ( fast and with all the benefits ) but with obvious disadvantage of loosing the killed faction.

True, I don't think anyone likes arbitrary limits that come falling out of the sky so to speak, but there might be more to the three faction limit than we know.



But I also don't like the thought of player X having a decided advantage because he starts with 3 minors on his borders that all get along, where player Y gets screwed with three factions that despise each-other. So I am worried that balancing what you propose might become a nightmare in and of itself.



Although, it sounds as though the Prestige system (the little that we know of it) controls all diplomatic actions both internally and externally. It could be that this 3 faction cap is built into this system somehow, and in a way that makes more senses than just "this is how it is"

So I am worried that balancing what you propose might become a nightmare in and of itself.

Endless Space is a game where one player can have all tier 1-2 planets and a Garden of Eden nearby, while another has Gas Giants and Asteroids and isn't a Tolerant race. Bad things happen, but that's all part of the fun.



On the other hand, having pre-made, balanced maps would be spectacular.



As for the original post: I love the idea, and hope they change their system to it. Would add a lot of game to the game. "Hmm... I started next to the Goblins, but I really want the Fairies. I don't know if there are any on the map yet, though. Do I go ahead and befriend the Goblins due to their proximity and the early game advantage I'd get from having them, or choose not to and risk there being no Fairies on the map...?" That's a far more interesting decision than, "I'm reserving one of my minor race slots to ensure I can get Fairies if they're on the map. I've still got two left, and Goblins are good. Welcome to the Empire of Rainbows and Unicorns, Goblins!"



Also, Empire of Rainbows and Unicorns needs to be a thing.

I think having a handful - even just 4-6 - prebalanced maps would be excellent, as you could have reliably balanced maps for folks that prefer to have equal starts, tiered multiplayer or whatever folks like. Naturally, I like the element of chaos myself, but - the option would be cool. Some of the best maps I played where in Heroes of Might and Magic II, and that only had pre-made maps; some more balanced then others... :P



More seriously, and more tied back to the original post, I'm strongly in favor. More options is good, and having options be less easy or binary is best. Any time I weigh my options and don't realize when is purely more advantageous then the other is a good thing. I also strongly support the idea of an Empire of Rainbows and Unicorns. Given this is Endless stuff we're talking about, I fully expect the Rainbows to be sentient Jovian beings or offshoots of the Amoeba or something - spreading dust and merriment to the rest of the factions, whether they want it or not!

Stealth_Hawk wrote:




But I also don't like the thought of player X having a decided advantage because he starts with 3 minors on his borders that all get along, where player Y gets screwed with three factions that despise each-other. So I am worried that balancing what you propose might become a nightmare in and of itself.

Well, the point is that as the system is right now you can "get" the minor factions by diplomacy (slow but more advantages ) or force (faster but with less advantages). But by adding this, if you start with minor factions that hate each other is not necessarily worst than starting with friendly factions, as you could kill one of them by force, getting the full support of the other, having then the advantages of both the diplomacy and force approach ( fast and with all the benefits ) but with obvious disadvantage of loosing the killed faction.

Another option - and it could be a toggle-able option, at that - is having it so that 'killed off' minor factions respawn at a random set point on the area map. Several games had this as an option with mixed effects, and I've seen it best done in Alpha Centauri. I think it thematically fits the idea of the minor factions well; how often have 'heroic' fantasy folk burned goblin warrens only for the goblins to cling on with renewed tenacity? How many times have heroes (or villains) bumbled into hidden fairy dens, elf villages, or refuges of Mystery Species X?



Example:

Ixiatlith the Definitely Not Hissho warlord has decided that she is rather sick of the goodly-natured Spiderfolk on her doorstep. With a maniacal cackle, she burns their villages to the ground, rips their webs asunder, and sells any randomly generated loot for mad, dusty profit. However - the retreating Spiderfolk not only set up camp (worse for wear, perhaps taking a penalty to growth for 10 x Number of Times Defeated turns) in a different tile, they tell all who will listen of the brutality of the Definitely Not Hissho, making all factions react depending on their inclination. Some are very arachnophobic, and toast Ixiatlith and her thoughtful display of arms and strength. Others view warmongering as bad and are more wary/aggressive/less likely to trade, depending on faction; and still others simply do not care. Minor factions also could have different reactions. Say the Tunneldweller Goblins were fighting a long war with the Spiderfolk, and are more receptive to Definitely Not Hissho diplomacy and attempts at a lucrative merger...

This allows not only for all the approaches mentioned above, but makes it so that there are ramifications on ramifications; maybe you profit immediately through invasion, but might you strengthen your enemy down the line? Is it worth the risk regardless, because of interesting opportunities? Plenty of things to think about, making the game more complex and engaging over-all.

JIntegrity wrote:
Endless Space is a game where one player can have all tier 1-2 planets and a Garden of Eden nearby, while another has Gas Giants and Asteroids and isn't a Tolerant race. Bad things happen, but that's all part of the fun.



On the other hand, having pre-made, balanced maps would be spectacular.



As for the original post: I love the idea, and hope they change their system to it. Would add a lot of game to the game. "Hmm... I started next to the Goblins, but I really want the Fairies. I don't know if there are any on the map yet, though. Do I go ahead and befriend the Goblins due to their proximity and the early game advantage I'd get from having them, or choose not to and risk there being no Fairies on the map...?" That's a far more interesting decision than, "I'm reserving one of my minor race slots to ensure I can get Fairies if they're on the map. I've still got two left, and Goblins are good. Welcome to the Empire of Rainbows and Unicorns, Goblins!"



Also, Empire of Rainbows and Unicorns needs to be a thing.

have to agree here me fear is that there some of extrem usefull minor factions and other are rather useless depending on your game style

it would be like the solar systems in ES a gambling game which minor factions are settled at your border.

Personally I think that it would be great to have more than 3 minor factions as allies, but the issue I see is what happens in Civ 5. If you go the rout of getting all the city states you end up overpowered and impossible to get rid of when it comes to the voting and other such issues. Plus you used to get too many bonus units and whatnot. I know the mechanics are different with this game but it probably makes it even harder to balance if more are allowed. What would be interesting is if there was a mod or option to select to remove the rule with custom games or something.

You know whats fun? Risks.

You know what also is fun? as long as its not in the real world? Faction hatred.



Simply put, have the minor factions not like each other very well. If you have 3 minor factions you are fine, but the more you add the more likeley rebellions and infighting become.

Thus you *can* have more, but you have to balance out the risk.

So at the end of the day it is mostly not a very good idea, but if you are in a desperate situation you can still try it to turn the tide.

even better, pitting minor factions against each other so that only the strongest survive, bonus to happiness and winning factions? opportunities for gladiator fights as an approval buildings?

We do not know how many minor factions will be in the game when you start. Would be enough for every faction to get three each? Or is it with 6 players there is only 6 minor factions.



Blitz that would be fun but what happens if you taking the diplomacy route would they have written tests?



DarkMeph

well think about the civil service examinations that took place in ancient china, that could happen in endless legend, but so could eating all of the herbivores. also if that can happen, food bonus? i personally think that would be humorous.

True things like that could happen which would make it different. Another Suggestion I have you could have away if an Army fails into missions and survives then 1 in every 10 would be executed. The Romans did that with there legions.



DarkMeph

thats a lovely thought, though i still think eating the minor factions is a good idea. calamari, fried chicken, dolphin.

would they not need fattening up first otherwise they will be stringy.



DarkMeph

depends on what you prefer to eat. you could put them in a soup, cook them on the grill, eat them raw, or mix them with various other ingredients that make taste even better.