That Being Said...

So... That being said, what is the intent of this thread? Well, it is to point out pitfalls, annoyances, or simply things that were not quite that good in ES (Again, not destructive criticism, but constructive)



But that's not all...

Of course that's not all. After you (if anyone does) post your annoyance/grievance with ES, suggest a way it might be fixed or corrected in EL, so the devs are enabled to make a game better suited to the community. I cannot tell how many times I have heard developers wish that they had gotten feedback on a certain aspect Before they solidified the game design. Likewise, I think there are things that could be done for ES, but now its too late as those changes would have needed to have been implemented early in the game development



Thats where you come in

Now, just post A) What was done wrong in ES (Wrong to any degree) and what can be done to ensure EL avoids the same mistake.



Again, this is not meant to be harmful to anyone in any way.



Example

So I'll give mine as an example:

I think that one of the major pit-falls of ES was the lack of interaction with your citizens. Sure, you get but thats about it. I think it would be cool if the population of each system/city (for EL) were to take on traits that affected FIDS. I.E., events can make the people more aggressive. Aggressive, however, not meaning unhappy. For example, Your people becoming aggressive could increase approval during a time of war. Oppositely, events leading a people to be peaceful would increase approval and production during peace.

The main problem about ES multiplayer, that is not technical (desynchs aren't funny):

Some games are lost due to the starting position, some other games are lost not soon after. In that case, many players leave, because ES only has the alternatives to win or die and there is hardly ever any chance at a comeback.



So for EL, I'd like tall empires, not just wide ones. I'd like there to be better balanced maps, so there's no quits on game start, anymore. I'd like there to be mechanics that allow for rebounds of players, so they stick to the game til the very end. And of course, I'd like there to no desynchs, but one has to be realistic, that will happen especially in the early phases.

My answer will be: I don't know and I refuse to know!

Divine_Moments_of_Truth wrote:
My answer will be: I don't know and I refuse to know!

Ignorance is bliss?



Well, for the poll - I guess the devs and the VIPs got a lot of input from us users and as we have already seen, they responded to feedback - sometimes not instantly, sometimes not the way some wanted it, but they responded

Tredecim wrote:


Well, for the poll - I guess the devs and the VIPs got a lot of input from us users and as we have already seen, they responded to feedback - sometimes not instantly, sometimes not the way some wanted it, but they responded

True, and not disputing that fact But the real point is to help them avoid implementing features they think are a good idea because no one said anything about it in ES, that in reality we dont really want to see again.

I would suggest espionage. Heroes orbit a system and suck dust or science, but I want stolen tech, sabotage a fleet, assassinate another hero etc.

1. Please include hot-seat.

2. Be creative. Humans/Dwarves/Orcs/Undead is boring.

3. More single-player stuff. Scenarios, Campaing-story etc

this sandbox style of gaming gets boring after some hours.

4. Some kind of tutorial or clarify the rules, haven't yet managed to figure how combat actually works. I know I am a noob but i dont always have time to spend on a game, no matter how I love ES

5. Include ships.

6. Include air units maybe, dunno: balloons, Dragons.

7. Maybe some spair units-models to create our own races? (too much to ask:PPPP)

8. A new multiplayer system for a quick match mode

9. Only battle mode (to test out stuff)

CyDoN wrote:
1. Please include hot-seat.

2. Be creative. Humans/Dwarves/Orcs/Undead is boring.

3. More single-player stuff. Scenarios, Campaing-story etc

this sandbox style of gaming gets boring after some hours.

4. Some kind of tutorial or clarify the rules, haven't yet managed to figure how combat actually works. I know I am a noob but i dont always have time to spend on a game, no matter how I love ES

5. Include ships.

6. Include air units maybe, dunno: balloons, Dragons.

7. Maybe some spair units-models to create our own races? (too much to ask:PPPP)

8. A new multiplayer system for a quick match mode

9. Only battle mode (to test out stuff)

Don't worry, the races are ES-inspired!

Ships in a dungeon?

Air units might be nice.

Tredecim wrote:
Don't worry, the races are ES-inspired!

Ships in a dungeon?

Air units might be nice.

I'm not sure you aren't mixing up DotE and EL, right now, Tredecim.

Nosferatiel wrote:
I'm not sure you aren't mixing up DotE and EL, right now, Tredecim.

Well, my mistake then - but I'd really like to see it ES-based; like Warhammer and Warhammer 40k.

wide empires are ok, but not just from a mass land grab right from the start, you should be severly penalised for mass expansion without properly establishing your existing cities, more customisation options for your empires, like faction leader customisation and varies bonuses avalable for race and for leader as well as style, different races should prefer different climates and terrain for there cities.



and most importantly. the DIPLOMACY SYSTEM needs to be looked into alot, i also suggest taking a look at how the diplomacy and AI works in the galactic civ games, now there i felt i was doing diplomacy.

I hate being penalised for expanding. Surely it would be better to reward those who builds tall empires, it has the same effect but it makes it far less annoying.

I too hardly believe that penalizing for expansion is the answer, since whichever player doesn't care about pretty much wins the game in my experience.



Going on what Flames said, I think it would be better to have bonuses like Horatio's Galactic Drive through and that Automatons tech that give a FIDS bonus - the amount of X you own (population, galaxy, etc.) It would be nice if something like that could be implemented across all factions to give bonuses to tall empires. Of course, if these were unlocked at the start of the game, the game's progression would be flat for a while as the bonus decreased and the population (and therefore FIDS) increases. So that would most likely have to be done through techs available for all factions.



This may sound weird, but I think it would be cool if merchants (opposite of pirates in some respects) were worked into the game. If these merchants were more inclined to do business with less threatening empires... Just an idea that I have had floating in my head with all the others for ES for some time.

Trying to address the specifics of gameplay in a game that's still this early in development isn't really going to be very fruitful.



The question is more should EL be made in the same way that ES was, and that warrants some thought. The collaborative development process that Amplitude adopted was pretty radical and not something that any major studio has ever tried before. The ideas behind it are great and I hope it's something that they keep trying to perfect. The shortcomings that have become apparent from it should be addressed in order for that to happen, though. ES is a game that's been out for well over a year now and still isn't anywhere near balanced. I admit I wouldn't have bought it were it not for the Steam sale, because when I tried it during the free weekend it was glaringly apparent that this is an unfinished product, as much as I wanted to like it. A business model that charges full price for games in this state is not going to last too long.



That said, I think it is possible for expert development and community participation to exist in the same space, but a balance needs to be found. More thought should be put into where the game is going and what the end results will be at the beginning of the process. That way, meaningful decisions can be formulated and put to the community without sacrificing the integrity of the finished product. Torment: Tides of Numenera is using a similar model for community participation.



I really hope that Endless Legend turns out great and that you can keep blazing a trail for player participation in game development.

One thing I would like very much to see included in this game is support for, and the inclusion of, modding tools. Add to the Steam community workshop! Someone made the point earlier that this genre can become stale, and this is somewhat true. Most players develop a winning strategy and then stick to it every time time they play. Without a lot of variation it can quickly become a grind to replay, however, when you add the ability for players to create ad share their own scenarios and content you provide almost infinite variety and replayability! look at Civilization V, the game is very deep but once a good strategy is figured out than it can quickly lose what makes it interesting (I know, I have almost 800 hours logged in it xD) BUT with the addition of community created content now there are an incredible variety of ways to enjoy it! Players have, or are, creating different ways to play, from an amazing Game of Thrones adaptation, to a native remake of SM Alpha Centari. I don't necessarily think that it needs to be a pre-launch priority, but would be a nice addition somewhere down the development cycle... even if its the last "official" thing added right before the devs themselves stop work in it, at that point players can stop bugging the devs for more content and start creating themselves! =D As it stands this game looks amazing and I hope that this becomes one of the games that I play and replay for years!

Modding tools are pretty much a must these days. They give enormous added value. Some people would be perfectly happy to play only a modded version a game. That said, I'd be TOTALLY happy if a modding pack were released sometime AFTER initial release. I want the actual game to be a solid one from the beginning.