I was curious about the payout of spending dust on heroes vs spending it on building buyouts, so I kept notes while playing a 1.0.12 game.



Some caveats: I always play a BL base, so I ignore food; I like to play custom factions, so my numbers are a bit different than a vanilla player might expect; I play conquest, and my games end before turn 100. So take that into account when considering my findings.



The Market

• The market fills from the timeouts of exclusive heroes. Part of what that means is that there is very little reason to research Mercenary Market before turn 15 (which is when the exclusivity times out)-- you'll only be able to choose between 3, premium price heroes.
• In general, inflation raises the price of heroes by 7.7 dust each turn. On turn 1, they're available for 321.3 dust.
• Demand affects the price of heroes. At turn 15, the new heroes (presumably timed out exclusives for the AI) were available for 299.6 dust, whereas the turn before, my own exclusives were costing more than 400.
  
  

The Heroes

• With a pretty high industry, my governor hit level 2 at turn 10, and was almost halfway to 3 on turn 15. While potential XP gains grow as city industry rises, the XP cost to level increases as level rises. Leveling every ten turns is a reasonable approximation.
• This is slightly slower than you can level by exploring and fighting, but only very slightly.
• The good heroes will give an immediate payout of >= 6 FIDSI.
• Upgrade paths mean heroes are long-term investments that never stop improving. Longer games shift the balance in favor of heroes, shorter games shift the balance in favor of buildings.
  
  

The Heroes' Factions

• Roving Clans: Difficult to assess because of trade bonuses, but trade only ever explodes relatively late. A long-term investment at best.
• Necrophages: Industry, food, and/or slavery may make some decent governors, but not for Broken Lords players.
• Drakken: Influence bonuses (at half regular FIDSI rates) and questionable upgrade path, not very inspiring.
• Broken Lords: Good default dust production, a somewhat irritating upgrade path, depending on your focus on dust.
• Vaulters: Science Boost, for some reason, gives greater FIDSI returns, but upgrade path poor.
• Ardent Mages: Fantastic science returns, good upgrades from the beginning.
• Wild Walkers: Industry boost/efficiency is king, acceptable upgrades.
• Cultists: Fantastic, flexible upgrade path focused on governing, with immediate returns.
  
  

The Rogues' Gallery

In something like increasing order of importance:

• Ipsa Wacha: +3 Industry per pop is a no brainer when all your pop is on industry; but your most populous cities are the cities where you want the least pop on industry.
• Peyton Quinn: +3 dust per pop, okay upgrade path can lead to some very profitable cities when assigned wisely.
• John Port "The Shadow": +6 dust on his city per level is useful anywhere
• Wayra Sigo: +6 Industry per level, useful upgrade path.
• Exid the Chosen: +2 Industry per pop combined with the best upgrade path. +5 Industry per pop at level 4 if you want to roll that way; there are other good paths.
• Argbadh Bosefdhala: +12 science at level 1, +78 science at level 4. Hard to beat, governs anywhere.
  
  

The Opportunity Cost

• Early BL population is less than 60 dust for 4 FIDSI pips: pays for itself in 15 turns, flexible assignment
• Tier 1 buildings cost 178 each, give 10-14 FIDSI: pay for themselves in 15 turns, can do partial buyout
• Bribing villages cost ~170 dust for 4 FIDSI: pay for themselves in 45ish turns, flexible assignment
  
  

The best of the best, from a pure FIDSI standpoint, is Argbadh Bosefdhala (although many of you place less importance on science than I do).

• Costs ~300 if bought early
• Provides 120 science in first ten turns
• Breaks even 16 turns after being bought
• If we imagine a public library proportional in cost (say +20 science), AB surpasses its output 19 turns after purchase
• Comparison increasingly in AB's favor as we look at higher tier +science buildings, decreasingly in AB's favor as turn advances and hero cost increases
  
  

Let's look at John Port for a less optimistic evaluation:

• 300 dust if bought early
• Provides 60 dust in first ten turns
• Breaks even ~turn 25 depending on assignment
• Compare to hypothetical 300 dust mint (we'll say 18 dust/turn): Port surpasses its output after ~45 turns
• Initial output/cost comparable to bribing villages
  
  

Conclusions

• Almost no reason to prioritize Mercenary Market research before turn 15
• Best of the best heroes are very competitive, if you are lucky enough to have them, and worth purchasing (or saving for) while you foresee the game lasting 20 more turns
• Most high quality heroes still long term investments when compared to tier 1 buildings
• Mediocre heroes (not examined) probably poor investments
• There are a lot of factors that make it more complicated than this analysis would suggest
  
  

To do:

• Consider heroes at later stages in the game
  
  

As you say, there are lots of factors that make things more complicated, but one I suspect is particularly important: buildings can be acquired in other ways (industry), while heroes cannot (generally speaking).



That means that buying out your next building also carries an opportunity cost, in that your industry will thereafter be spent on a less valuable building than it otherwise would have been, decreasing the return you get on that industry. (There is no comparable opportunity cost to buying a hero, because if you don't buy it you'll never get it at all.)



For example, suppose you're planning to build Seed Store, Public Library, Empire Mint, in that order. In scenario A, you just build them all. In scenario B, you buyout the Seed Store on turn 1, but (for simplicity) you still have the same industry output. You've basically assumed that this means that scenario B gets extra food from the Seed Store every turn for the rest of the game, but that's not true.



For the first X turns, scenario B is getting +10 food (in summer) and +15% food that scenario A isn't getting. But then scenario A finishes the Seed Store (and starts on a Public Library) while scenario B finishes the Public Library (and starts on the Empire Mint). Now they have the same food, but scenario B is getting +10 science and +10% science that scenario A isn't (which presumably you consider less valuable than the food, otherwise you would have done the buildings in a different order). After another X turns, the science equalizes, but scenario B is getting +5 dust and +15% dust, and so on. Scenario B stays ahead, but their investment depreciates: their advantage keeps changing from (X industry towards) a high-priority building to (X industry towards) a slightly-lower-priority building.



You point out that tier 2 buildings are less attractive buyout options than tier 1 buildings, but even if you buyout a tier 1 building, you're only getting that favorable exchange rate up until the point when the city would have finished its last tier 1 building anyway; after that, the ongoing benefit you get is only the same as if you'd spent that same dust on a partial buyout of a tier 2 building.



That implies that the heroes are going to catch up to building buyouts faster than you predict, and will diverge more sharply than you suggest after they have crossed.





You also may want to take maintenance costs into account--upkeep on early-game buildings and heroes is a nontrivial fraction of their output. I believe a level 1 hero costs the same maintenance as most tier 1 buildings, but when you imagine a "scaled up" tier 1 building that costs as much as a hero, are you also scaling up the maintenance that you pay on it each turn? Of course, hero maintenance increases with level, so it's not obvious how this would swing the comparison in the end.

Antistone wrote:
That means that buying out your next building also carries an opportunity cost, in that your industry will thereafter be spent on a less valuable building than it otherwise would have been, decreasing the return you get on that industry.

That's an excellent point, and part of why +industry heroes are highly valued. Sewer system comes second because the mill foundry is worth more and costs the same. Exid the Chosen is great because he's a second mill foundry.

You point out that tier 2 buildings are less attractive buyout options than tier 1 buildings, but even if you buyout a tier 1 building, you're only getting that favorable exchange rate up until the point when the city would have finished its last tier 1 building anyway; after that, the ongoing benefit you get is only the same as if you'd spent that same dust on a partial buyout of a tier 2 building.

I think that's only kind of true, because it's an empire-wide evaluation rather than a per-city evaluation. So long as dust is scarce enough that you're considering buying tier 1 buildings anywhere in your empire, the appropriate opportunity costs of governors are the most valuable buildings you are not buying-- which are likely the high value, tier 1 buildings.



Of course, it's complex, because you're looking at the benefits to be gained in a new city, vs the benefits to be realized by governing an older, more advanced city.

That implies that the heroes are going to catch up to building buyouts faster than you predict, and will diverge more sharply than you suggest after they have crossed.

Once one is no longer expanding, that's true. (But then you're later in the game, and it's not likely your heroes will be costing 300 dust anymore, nor will there be as much time for them to realize their potential.)

You also may want to take maintenance costs into account--upkeep on early-game buildings and heroes is a nontrivial fraction of their output. I believe a level 1 hero costs the same maintenance as most tier 1 buildings, but when you imagine a "scaled up" tier 1 building that costs as much as a hero, are you also scaling up the maintenance that you pay on it each turn? Of course, hero maintenance increases with level, so it's not obvious how this would swing the comparison in the end.

That's a good point, but I'm not sure it would have a big impact, and it would certainly complicate matters All of my calculations are just back-of-the-envelope scribbles and I freely ignored any numbers that I didn't think would have a large effect.



I think the largest thing I overlooked, for later in the game, are the impact of % gains on mature cities. Inspirational Leader and similar capacities don't come into play until late in the game, but they can have large effects on high quality cities.

natev wrote:
I think that's only kind of true, because it's an empire-wide evaluation rather than a per-city evaluation. So long as dust is scarce enough that you're considering buying tier 1 buildings anywhere in your empire, the appropriate opportunity costs of governors are the most valuable buildings you are not buying-- which are likely the high value, tier 1 buildings.

I think you have misunderstood my point. Yes, on turn 80, if you somehow just acquired a brand new city, you will have the option of whether to spend your current dust on a tier 1 building in that city or on a new hero to govern that city.



But my point is that, if you choose to buy a tier 1 building in your capital instead of a hero way back on turn 15, then on turn 16 that purchase means you have 1 more tier 1 buildings than you otherwise would have had, but by turn 30 it no longer means that, because by turn 30 that particular city would have had the maximum number of tier 1 buildings anyway. The fact that you purchased a tier 1 building in city X on turn 15 does not translate into an extra tier 1 building in city Y on turn 80.



So if you buyout a Public Library on turn 15, then on turn 16 you can expect to gain +10 science (ignoring the % science for simplicity) that you would not otherwise have gained, but you should not expect to gain +500 science over the next 50 turns. The building's direct benefit is not the same as the difference between buying that building or not buying it.

Antistone wrote:
I think you have misunderstood my point. Yes, on turn 80, if you somehow just acquired a brand new city, you will have the option of whether to spend your current dust on a tier 1 building in that city or on a new hero to govern that city.

You're right. I didn't think it through completely. With building buyouts, you're not investing in production so much as you're buying tempo. And it is very hard to compare those two things.



So I decided to do a side by side comparison of a decent hero vs building buyouts.



Methodology:

Created a map on default settings, small, one roving clan AI, seed 1, playing vanilla BL. Advanced it to turn 16 which is where I finished researching Mercenary Market, then saved the game. Pursued it through two forks: one in which I bought the best available dust or industry hero at the earliest opportunity, and one in which I instead spent all of my dust on building buyouts and pop.



Did not touch villages or roamers. Did not search ruins. Buyout priorities were pop 2, then buildings in the order I would build them. Build order in each city was (founder's), mill foundry, settler, sewer, library, labs, mint, borough, extractors, (glory of empire). When buildings were not available I built vanilla stalwarts (all at tier2 prices).





In one game I bought Duke Unwin (dust boost 3) and planted him in a city ASAP. In the other, I bought buildings instead. I played twenty turns past my purchase of Unwin. I think Unwin is representative of good heroes. He's no Exid, hes no Arghbdadadadadda... no ardent mage. But he's top tier dust production. I was able to purchase Unwin at turn 24 in his fork (he cost 415.9 dust at that point), so I played both forks to 44.



Unwin vs un-Unwin:



4th settler launched turn 42 (unwin) vs turn 38 (un-unwin)

~4 turns ahead in tech with un-unwin

Similar unrealized industry, unspent dust, stalwart count in both games



Total IDSI for each empire:

Unwin: 88/93/140/6

un-Unwin (not counting 4th city founded turn 40): 88/90/153/11

un-Unwin (counting 4th city): 107/88/161/12



Unwin reached level 2 during this experiment.



20 turns is maybe not enough to judge this, but in that time period, I think Unwin earned his name.



The differences largely arise from the different speeds with which I settled my third city. Without the cost of Unwin, I was able to purchase mill foundry in my second and the sewer system while the settler was being developed. That shaved off four turns.

My thoughts about this.



FIRST: Governor heroes are "usually" subpar until they reach level 2 (when they can spend their first skill point). At level 1 you can only count on their hero capacity, and depending on the capacity, won't give that much (If I recall correctly, "Boost" nets +2/+4/+6 to one FIDSI resource per hero level - halved for influence - while "Efficiency" nets +1/+2/+3 to one FIDSI resource per opulation: in city). On 1.0.21 they "nerfed" starting industry boost to lv2 max, so starting heroes won't be able to spawn with Industry Boost level 3.



This means, even if your default hero spawns with Boost lv3, most Era1 buildings will grant better gains... but your hero can be assigned at Turn 1 while you will usually need several turns (4 was my best scenario) to build the Founder's Memorial and then you'll have to do some research before you can start building other improvements.



That usually makes your hero capacity the only "production generator" for several turns before you get your initial buildings rolling. Choice here is to either keep your hero as general until it reaches lv2 (heroes will get more xp and level up a little faster on the wild) and then assign him as governor, or just assign him as governor on Turn 1 if the hero spawned with a good capacity (I'd say, science, industry).





SECOND: A governor hero will usually reach level 2 by the time you get your first/second building down (not counting memorial, most times the hero will level when you finish your second building, but in anomaly-heavy scenarios may level up earlier since heroes also get xp from city FIDSI gains), and by that time your city should already have 2-3 opulation: (depending on food production). At level 2 is when your hero will get advantage over buildings as long as it's a "rush governor" (has a "flat" Tier 1 hero skill):



- Necrophage: Great. Necrotic Agriculture grants +8/+8/+14 , plus Slavery hero capacity nets +1/+1 per opulation:. This will mean about 10 and 2 per turn at hero level 2, not counting the possible hero capacity.



- Ardent Mages: Great. Renaissance Thinker grants +8/+8/+14. At low levels that's a very big increase, almost on par with the Public Library (11 by itself), and usually greater for some time once you place two points there.



- Vaulters: Good. Alchemical Genius Nets +2/+2/+2 on both your city center and your districts. Initially low (you'll only have a city center) but expands naturally as your city grows, and you'll usually have at least one district before Turn20.



- Wild Walkers: Good. Woodland Forager Nets +1/+1/+1 on ?city/terrain with ? if I recall correctly. Seems a small amount and dependant, but industry is always good.



- Cultists: Decent. Impassioned Preacher seems good at first glance, but it's only powerful at later levels. It nets +1/+1/+1 to any gains... as long as there's opulation: working on that resource. Main power of Preacher is versatility (+1-3 to any single resource per pop... wherever you need it).



- Roving Clans: Bad. Traveling Salesman is terrain dependant (+2/+2/+2 on anomaly), so normally you'll get little to no value from it.



- Broken Lords: Bad. Aquatic Dust is terrain dependant (+1/+2/+2 on river), so normally you'll get little to no value from it.



- Drakken: Bad. Irrigation Expert is again terrain dependant (+1/+2/+2 on river), so normally you'll get little to no value from it.





THIRD: Be either "Boost" or "Efficiency", both capacities become more powerful when the hero levels or the city grows. "Boost" lv2 nets +8 flat when the hero reaches lv2, and that alone almost couples with most Era 1 buildings. Same goes for "Efficiency" lv2 once you get 3-4 population on your city (still, your cities will usually produce settlers from time to time, dropping opulation: numbers, so "Efficiency" is usually a little worse until you stop expanding via settlers and start doing so via captures)



This also means, heroes hired later in the game will usually come with a "free Era 1-2 building" on their backpack, since they'll either start at higher levels (usually lv2-3, also getting one or two "free" skill points, so "Boost" capacity will become more powerful) or they'll be assigned to a city with more than one pop (founding a new city at turn 80 will start with 1opulation:... but capturing a city at turn 80 may net you 7-8 opulation: depending on city; even if you hire a lv1 hero, a lv2 "Efficiency" will net you +14/+16 resource per turn.

Yorien wrote:
- Wild Walkers: Good. Woodland Forager Nets +1/+1/+1 on ?city/terrain with ? if I recall correctly. Seems a small amount and dependant, but industry is always good.

Unless the WW skill tree changed in the last patch, their first skill is Functional Insomniac, which gives -2 turns on reassignment cooldown. Their second skill gives +1 industry on forests, which is...less than terrain with industry. Their third skill gives a flat +6 industry--which will often give more than +1 industry on forests (at least in the early game), yet it's both smaller and significantly later than the flat food/science skills on necrophages/ardent mages, which is an...interesting design choice.



Industry is so important that it's often worth taking a small industry boost over a bigger boost in another category (and most things that give industry ARE smaller than comparable boosts in other categories), but WW don't really shine until their fourth skill, which gives building cost reduction--12% at level 1 and another 12% at level 2, which is much bigger than it looks due to the crazy way it stacks; that 24% cost reduction is like a 56% boost to industry (for buildings).

Antistone wrote:
Unless the WW skill tree changed in the last patch, their first skill is Functional Insomniac, which gives -2 turns on reassignment cooldown. Their second skill gives +1 industry on forests, which is...less than terrain with industry. Their third skill gives a flat +6 industry--which will often give more than +1 industry on forests (at least in the early game), yet it's both smaller and significantly later than the flat food/science skills on necrophages/ardent mages, which is an...interesting design choice.

True, checked last night (I don't play walkers very much). That drops walkers to "bad", unless they start with a decent capacity (usually industry). If they start with industry for me they're a no brainer.



Probably, the best hero to set as governor right away would be the Necro if he starts with some Food capacity. That will allow you to set the hero as governor in most scenarios without starvation issues (even when settling in regions with almost no food), and set the initial opulation: unit to production; coupled with the +1/+1 you would also get from Slavery, you will get your Memorial maybe one turn faster, and possibly help the initial bulding speed. One-two turns may not seem much, but in the initial stages of the game that's a lot.



EDIT: Of course, all of this dependant many factors (minor and mayor, location, etc...) Ijust feel the 16 turn hero is too "costly" (at 300-400 dust), I recall buying some of them for less than that, about ~200 or so, but still, even a 400 hero that is immediately assigned as governor with a decent capacity (even at the cost of ~two 200 buildings) is worth the effort because of the "free building" you'll usually get from the capacity.



If you plan to hire a governor, you'll search for one that both has good faction skills (Cultists are pretty much the most common choice unless you're planning for specific resource bonuses, since they can reach the T3, T4 and T5 "percentage skills" straight from T1 Impassionate Preacher without having to "waste" skill points on intermediate, non-governor skills) and "governor capacities", army capacities will be the "bonus" in this case.



Same happens with Generals... you'll concentrate on faction heroes with good battle skills (I actually like WW generales because of their T1 army movement bonus, it suits Blitzkrieg tactics) and "army capacities", and thus, governor capacities will be the bonus here.

That ranged class tree is fantastic for generals. Vaulter heroes have the same, and their ability to slip into sieged fortresses can be pretty handy (lets you ignore 1 or 2 unit armies in your territory). But army boost is a really great capacity (basically all the different boosts rolled into one) and I think that the general with the best army boost is the necrophage Queenslayer (who, if I remember correctly, also has slavery), even though the infantry class tree is a little bland.

natev wrote:
That ranged class tree is fantastic for generals. Vaulter heroes have the same, and their ability to slip into sieged fortresses can be pretty handy (lets you ignore 1 or 2 unit armies in your territory). But army boost is a really great capacity (basically all the different boosts rolled into one) and I think that the general with the best army boost is the necrophage Queenslayer (who, if I remember correctly, also has slavery), even though the infantry class tree is a little bland.

I think all Necro heroes have Slavery hard-coded. I guess that it's a faction speciality set as a hero capacity (which makes sense, you need someone to "hold the whip" - or to nom your behinds - if you slacker.... )



About the Vaulter's skill , If I recall, it says they're allowed to "leave" sieged cities, but I guess they'll be able to also garrison inside. Still, I don't find Vaulters "leave/enter" sieged cities skill that useful unless you want to get a general inside (and since that skill is on the faction branch, Tier2 if I recall, not many generals will find spare points to enable it). As long as you can enable a holy resource, you can just teleport a bunch of units and kick their butts the next turn. There's even an achievement for that ("Here comes the Cavalry" or something similar).

"Never Rests" doesn't have slavery. (For good reason: industry boost + slavery would be a little bit too much on one hero.)



I guess I've never tried the vaulter trick, so yeah, I don't know if it just lets you slip out or slip in! Probably never tried it because, as you say, it's on an ugly upgrade path. I wasn't thinking about it for Vaulters (who don't need it) but for other factions hiring Vaulter heroes. A single (war-equipped) governor and a bit of militia could repel small assaults nicely.



Every once in a while you do luck out with a pre-levelled, bizarrely upgraded hero, so maybe I'll see how it works someday.



I suppose you could just hire mercenaries to a nearby city and assign any general you wanted, but those mercenaries get expensive quickly.