Great replies. Thank you.



I haven't been playing a ton, but I tend to conclude still that winning through conquest is the obvious and most direct path to victory. Then, the other victories are available more for achievement hunting and role playing, not as strategic choices. None the less, what has been perhaps most interesting is to see people playing the game differently.



This thread exhibits some claims that the econ vic may be an expeditious path to winning in certain conditions: /#/endless-legend/forum/5-general/thread/2176-has-anyone-honestly-gotten-an-econmic-victory-yet

I have to agree that the quest needs an overhaul for most factions. For the most part, my main problem whilst performing them was "Why am I even bothering?"

Tried it out! Yeah, the Wild Walker quest is pretty nasty, but it does require pretty focused pursuit (and a little bit of "cooperation" from opposing factions, to get the hero to level 4 in a timely manner). I don't think anything can compete with that except military victories, and those, on smaller maps. Getting it before turn 120 seems possible, but not likely. Edit: got it at turn 123. Got my hero levelled, equipped, and placed in the nick of time (literally turn 99) but it didn't matter-- the bottleneck was collecting 40 mithrite and 40 hyperium. Not a lot you can do to plan for tier 4 strategics except ensure more Silic villages than I had (only 1) and get BL hero or 2 levelled in preparation.

natev wrote:
Thanks!



So I did a huge map economic victory just to see what it looked like. Even though a huge map takes almost four times as much dust, it only took me about a third again as long as a tiny map-- 89 fast turns, equivalent to 178 normal turns.

Nice going! This does suggest that the peaceful victory types need a good bit more balancing, though. A fast Wild Walkers wonder victory is turn 130 on normal speed, and I suspect that the fastest possible is around 112. It's unreasonable for them to have that much of an edge over the other non-military victories just because they happen to get quest ruins in good spots.

Thanks!



So I did a huge map economic victory just to see what it looked like. Even though a huge map takes almost four times as much dust, it only took me about a third again as long as a tiny map-- 89 fast turns, equivalent to 178 normal turns. The curve flattened out a bit near the end. Didn't make it to any of the BL quest buildings because the quest was bugged I guess. Won on the same turn that I finished my first tier 6 research. Was making almost 50k/turn on the turn before I won.



Used up everybody's glassteel via diplomacy/market/silics/BL heroes and had about 7 at the end (whereas I had 300-some hyperium). Knocked out one neighbor because I didn't like the way he was looking at me, took another province for a quest, then one more because it had Delver villages, and heck, I was at war anyways.



Seemed competitive with military, faster than quest (almost impossible to win BL quest without winning econ first). Probably competitive with science (but I've never pursued a science victory), assuming you're not trading techs left and right.



I think the sweet spot for econ victory is probably a large map with 8 factions, played on fast speed. Skip the late game flattening of the dust curve, less competition from the science minded, enough factions for a pure military player to have to run a lot of armies on a lot of fronts, with fast game speed increasing the burden of travel time.

natev wrote:
Oh, I didn't realize that. I probably wasn't comparing apples to apples in that case. (Did you mean to include a link? I'd love to see the details if you have them handy.) It seems like a weird idea because it affects all victories differently. Are science and quest victories affected, for instance? And the curve of dust generation seems steeper than the curve of, say, diplomacy generation, although maybe that's just my limited experience.



Just did a tiny map econ victory in less than 150 normal turns (edit: 139 to be exact)-- military would have been faster, but not dramatically so (edit, yes it is dramatically so, lol 75 turns vs 139 turns, and that against 3 AI). If it scales linearly with map size, I might still imagine it comparable to military victories on large maps, just because the steepness of the curve for dust generation.

Added the link in the previous post. Here is again, in case something happened: http://endlesslegendwiki.com/Victory



There you can find tables for economic , diplomatic and score victories.



As for science and so... seems it doesn't matter (science requirements are the same, no matter the speed)... BUT.... there was (again) another chart around that worked as a multiplier for FIDSI gains based on speed/map size. I've misplacet it, though.

Yorien wrote:
FIDSI victory requirements are highly dependant on map size

Oh, I didn't realize that. I probably wasn't comparing apples to apples in that case. (Did you mean to include a link? I'd love to see the details if you have them handy.) It seems like a weird idea because it affects all victories differently. Are science and quest victories affected, for instance? And the curve of dust generation seems steeper than the curve of, say, diplomacy generation, although maybe that's just my limited experience.



Just did a tiny map econ victory in less than 150 normal turns (edit: 139 to be exact)-- military would have been faster, but not dramatically so (edit, yes it is dramatically so, lol 75 turns vs 139 turns, and that against 3 AI). If it scales linearly with map size, I might still imagine it comparable to military victories on large maps, just because the steepness of the curve for dust generation.

natev wrote:
You don't need any quest tech or the tier 6 one-- in my attempts at econ victories, I win just before reaching tier 6, or while researching that tech, and mostly ignore the quests. Just make good, high-quality cities, 4 to 6 of them, don't lose them, and prioritize techs and buildings that will generate dust for relentless reinvestment. Diplomacy for glassteel is nice, as are tier 3 glassteel tomes, if you can get them. Last time I did it was with Broken Lords, but a custom variety that lacked the +1 dust/tile trait, and I didn't even start focusing toward an econ victory until tier 3. If I'm not mistaken, won just before turn 100 on fast speed. Might actually take longer on easier difficulties, as there's not quite as much glassteel floating around without the silly AI bonuses.



In small games, it's still faster to do conquest, but in really big games (7 enemies and map big enough for y'all), I think that econ can win out, if only because large military games are so tedious. It's hard to pull back from your March to the Sea just because you took a capital, it'd leave you vulnerable, and meanwhile even your capital is in rebellion. Makes it hard for me to come up with a turn estimate for an efficient win. The inefficient wins do take me longer than 100 fast turns though.

FIDSI victory requirements are highly dependant on map size and game speed, so you can actually "generate" maps more prone to those victories (here's a nice chart of the needed with the game original settings). Since most setting files are .XML, you can tweak them even further. Also, I think nº of players also matters.



http://endlesslegendwiki.com/Victory



On "default settings" (Normal speed - Normal map size), the amount of required (555.500) makes that victory difficult to achieve until you reach the higher research eras and start getting those big economic buildings out. On a small and fast game, the requirement drops to about one third(187.481), so the victory is much easier and faster to achieve, specially with factions that get dust bonuses.

Yorien wrote:
Those "certain conditions" usually require to get a specific research (usually the Era 6 ones along with some other buildings) or a specific faction bonus (usually quest-based) that skyrockets certain resource production. Unless actively going for those bonuses, conquest victories are still much faster.

You don't need any quest tech or the tier 6 one-- in my attempts at econ victories, I win just before reaching tier 6, or while researching that tech, and mostly ignore the quests. Just make good, high-quality cities, 4 to 6 of them, don't lose them, and prioritize techs and buildings that will generate dust for relentless reinvestment. Diplomacy for glassteel is nice, as are tier 3 glassteel tomes, if you can get them. Last time I did it was with Broken Lords, but a custom variety that lacked the +1 dust/tile trait, and I didn't even start focusing toward an econ victory until tier 3. If I'm not mistaken, won just before turn 100 on fast speed. Might actually take longer on easier difficulties, as there's not quite as much glassteel floating around without the silly AI bonuses.



In small games, it's still faster to do conquest, but in really big games (7 enemies and map big enough for y'all), I think that econ can win out, if only because large military games are so tedious. It's hard to pull back from your March to the Sea just because you took a capital, it'd leave you vulnerable, and meanwhile even your capital is in rebellion. Makes it hard for me to come up with a turn estimate for an efficient win. The inefficient wins do take me longer than 100 fast turns though.

KnownIssues wrote:
Great replies. Thank you.



I haven't been playing a ton, but I tend to conclude still that winning through conquest is the obvious and most direct path to victory. Then, the other victories are available more for achievement hunting and role playing, not as strategic choices. None the less, what has been perhaps most interesting is to see people playing the game differently.



This thread exhibits some claims that the econ vic may be an expeditious path to winning in certain conditions: /#/endless-legend/forum/5-general/thread/2176-has-anyone-honestly-gotten-an-econmic-victory-yet

Those "certain conditions" usually require to get a specific research (usually the Era 6 ones along with some other buildings) or a specific faction bonus (usually quest-based) that skyrockets certain resource production. Unless actively going for those bonuses, conquest victories are still much faster.

Interesting discussion in this thread suggests that the way to a science vic is to do some early prep, and then wait til you are one click from a supremacy victory (ie besieging the final overrun capital), then hit end turn until you get your sci vic.



This answers a question I've had as I knock my way through supremacy victories: are there other victory conditions that are fun to strive for? Unfortunately, the way I read this answer here is, "no." Or, "yes, as long as you win, or almost win, a supremacy first," as they say in the post. Neither answer seems very satisfying. In fact, if you aim for the achievement alone, or just to say you did it, why not eschew the (admittedly valuable) early advice and just find an old save where you were about to win a supremacy vic, put the conquest on pause and commence hitting end turn to get through the teching to your victory condition of choice? If you have a save as the vaulters you could role play the heck out of it, with heated conversations among the leadership about the value of tech to get us of the dying Auriga...



As I play, I always seem to be playing the game using a different rubric, not just due to the very strong faction differentiation, but also due to the the systems I am learning more about. It's one of the strengths of the game that you can continually play it a different way. Does this extend to the vic conditions?



Point is: do you have a more "organic" way to achieve non-military victories or do they all involve holding your undeniable military supremacy in check to prolong the game to get there?

I'm a builder. In most 4X games I usually stay peacefully within my borders and build my way to a science, wonder or diplomacy victory. I've played only a couple of games of EL so far and I found myself wining only by supremacy.



One part of that is that I still don't get the diplomacy victory condition. The AI always forces my hand, they attack me or ban me from the marketplace and almost never go for peace themselves. On the other hand, killing them is really easy and needs little micromanagement because a small and powerful army is enough to take their cities. Even worse, the AI is incredibly stupid. Even after I defeated all of their armies and/or taken some cities they want me to give them something for a truce!



It's clear that the victories need balancing.

I haven't had much trouble with those types of victories (I prefer them, in fact), but they all require you to be strong enough that you could probably win by force if you wanted. You need a fairly strong military to keep the AI from declaring war on you anyway, enough cities to keep up scorewise, and each victory type approach (except maybe for Diplomacy) more or less directly helps your military strength further:



Economic: you'll probably have more dust than you know what to do with, you could pump out whole armies in one turn if you wanted.

Science: Even if you don't research more military-related techs, just being ahead an age gives you an edge in equipment and starting level for new units. Earlier access to resources etc doesn't hurt either.

Wonder: The questline, if it turns out well enough, rewards a number of unique benefits which can work out much like a Science approach does. Though for the Rovers the benefits are more economic for example. And as stated before most of them require you to take at least one city anyway.

Score: Its the kind of victory I tend to get by accident while going for something else and time runs out. If someone is ahead, easiest way to fix that is by force. In fact, its usually the only way since number of cities is the biggest factor.

Keys to victory (non-military) for me so far.



Science:

I recently finished a Drakken Science victory. The key was a high science province with a large number of clustered anomalies. Getting the +15 science per anomaly and % science increase hero to high levels gave me a province that produced 90% of my science all game. Finished about turn 220 on Serious difficulty, ended with about 8 provinces, no major wars.



Economic:

I was trying for the Wonder victory for the Broken Lords and could not locate the province i needed to take. Ended the game with +15,000 Dust per turn net income... without locating my military target. (Huge maps can make that rough.)



Wondor victories for me have been a dime a dozen. Taking one to two targeted provinces has been easier than taking everything.



I still haven't managed a military or expansion victory.... one of these days I'll get that achievement.

That's funny actually, Diplomacy wins is like... how I win all of my games? Odd, that. I guess I just use it a lot more than the average player? I've found it not only profitable but also fun.



Granted, it'´s like Zukenft said, I needed a decent amount of regions to back it up- I didn't win on diplomacy alone, and I may have uh, eradicated another faction in the process. Gotta claim some land, y'know?

all peaceful victories except wonder requires you to have a large total yield. either dust, science or influence. and the easiest way to do that is to have a lot of regions. and the easiest way to get a lot of regions is...? you guessed it, conquest.

as of now, the punishment for overextension is too little, so whoever control the most regions will almost always win.

Just to elaborate further on the Main Quests required for the Wonder Victory (based on my experiences, of cause).



Ardent Mages: I have literally just completed this one for the first time, on turn 280-something! Quest three requires you to rapidly expand to three or four cities, then Quest Four requires you to immediately expand to yet another city, resulting in a pretty terrible situation for the player. The rest of it is just a matter of waiting for time, until I hit the final quest. I had conquered two of three continents and still lacked a single source of Mithrite, and the AI Roving Clans obviously insta-Market Banned me despite being entirely located on the third continent I had not yet touched. I had control of 70% of the map by the time I completed this quest line, then won on Score (another victory condition that favours warmongering)! I also could have got a Scientific Victory before completing this quest, but picked up the unique tech instead of one of the techs that grant the victory.



Broken Lords: I literally keep beating the game before I can complete this quest chain :P Quest Five is unpleasant (conquer a city on the other side of the map, with relatively high-level units, then lose a hero permanently) and generally results in me conquering two-to-three factions. Quest Six has always been far from my now rather large empire, requiring me to conquer another faction just to achieve it. I never progress onto the next quest, as by this point I am on the verge of Expansion, Supremacy, Economic and Elimination Victory conditions :P I think Quests Five, Six and Seven need a little redesign to be less over-the-top.



Cultists: This one seems kind of wierd. I got to Quest Five and was required to have a mess of resources that the faction is highly unlikely to be able to get, given they cannot make more than a single city. Your only hope would be to use the Market, but we all know the AI Market Bans everyone for no reason. No main quest should be designed in a way that a faction could not possibly complete it under their own rules, however, so I think a redesign would be in order.



Drakken: This is another one I keep abandoning. Quest Six is, you guessed it, conquer a city on the far side of the world. With the Diplomacy faction! The rest of this quest line fits the faction well, but once I get to that quest I either march towards a military victory or give up. I would suggest that quest aught to be completely scrapped and replaced with something more appropriate.



Necrophages: Ironically, this one is entirely peaceful. It mostly involves fighting minor factions, so you could be going for any victory type and still complete the quest chain (after all, you play Necrophage when you want a peaceful game!). Only Quest Six could possibly be war-like, as you have to get three new cities, but if you get to that point early enough (or have multiple Cultist opponents) you could still do it without any war. This was one of the easier ones to complete.



Roving Clans: This faction's quest is poorly designed, no two ways about it. Quest Five is yet another of those wonderful 'conquer this region on the other side of the world' jaunts. For the faction with the worst military, and incapable of declaring war. You can do it with Privateers, but I simply have no interest in marching Privateers across the world to burn down a city that I could have been trading with! This quest definitely needs to be scrapped and replaced with something actually appropriate to the faction's play-style and rules.



Vaulters: Every time I play this faction, I get up to Quest Four and give up. Inevitably, I am required to destroy a city on the far side of the map. In three games, I have not once seen a way to do this without conquering the majority of opponents. I will easily hit a Supremacy or Expansion Victory shortly after this quest (which is only half way through the chain: go figure!). The algorithm aught to pick a location closer to your empire, preferably a neutral location (for people playing a peaceful game).



Wild Walkers: I found this one really easy. Every quest involved things you would do anyway (eg pacify the local minor faction, search the local ruins) and was completely neutral in how it effects the game: you could be working toward any victory type and still complete this main quest! It is, in my opinion, the best designed quest chain.

Main problem is the "weird" AI diplomatic decissions, that sometimes "force" you to lean towards military tactics nonetheless your victory type.



1-. AI Agression: If the AI takes you for an easy prey, or their main army moves near an undefended (or poorly defended) region they'll declare war without even checking first where your armies are located. Playing passive and just developing your regions will make most other factions become aggressive towards you easily, so you have to keep a decent army nonetheles. While you may keep your army "on-hold", it's just a waste of resources that way. For most victories you have to expand to a certain point, or other factions will get more just by sheer number of regions controlled. And once space starts to become scarce, wars will be declared.



And keeping an army, buiding the buildings and mines, demands mainly and , so you just cannot start going towards a scientific or score win at turn 1 (you may go towards an economy based one, though)



2-. Diplomacy: Amplitude is adjusting diplomacy every patch, but you still see weird decissions from time to time (find Roving Clans and three turns later... Market Ban "Out of Nowhere"), and common behaviors as beelining towards lone units or declaring war then trying to cancel it turns later without a single battle being fought. That means, there's no "safe" way to get a diplomacy victory, unless you keep "forcing" other factions into place every time they take one of those "weird" decissions.



3-. "FIDSI" Victories: As ElricOfGrans says, Scientific victory (and most "point-based victories") is currently a matter of building the needed buildings and going next, next, next... for about 80-100 turns. Problem is... you need a good amount of production and population dedicated to XXXX gains for 80 turns... and you will not be able to do so unless you own a vast empire (drawing towards a military victory), and/or the other factions don't decide to keep playing war with you everytime they have the chance (something that' again, draws towards several military victories). You WANT other factions "softened" enough so they don't bother you for those 100 turns, and the "almost supremacy then go for wathever you want" is the easiest way to make other factions not bothering you.



I'd say:



Militaristic Victories: Easiest to reach in any game, unless playing Roving Clans, of course. You play more or less the same, you just change the last few steps depending on what exactly you want to achieve (nabing all capitals, leaving one capital for last, sieging the last capital and expanding everywhere else)



Diplomatic: Difficult to get because of weird AI decissions, and specifically designed for Drakken



Economic: Somewhat easy to get since you can just create a dust-based empire deal with pestering factions and leave the rest alone and focus on dust production. The moment you need armyes you'll have more than enough money to buyout armies where you need them, then you can sell them. Lords usually have the advantage here.



Wonder: Heavily dependant on the faction. Will force you to declare war(s) most of the time



Score: You may either keep increasing your score for the entire game (dificult, other factions will keep pestering you), or just go militaristic without destroying all other factions so you keep the remaining factions scores low, and then wait for the last turn



Science: IT's a late game victory (80-100 turns dedicated almost exclusively to science production), so you must ensure you reach late game in a good shape, which usually means dealing with other factions beforehand.

I have played out most victory conditions so far:

* Diplomatic is only possible in a non-militaristic approach! That said, the victory condition is extremely vague and impossible to understand within the game's interface. If diplomacy were a little better developed it would be a more interesting condition, but as it stands things are a little on the dull side.

* Economic is a little ugly. I have done this with the Roving Clans, who were besieged and fighting back non-stop, and with the Broken Lords who conquered their way across the map. The Broken Lords military approach was far quicker and easier, so go figure. According to Steam Achievement stats, the Roving Clans are the faction the least players have won a game with, which may say something too.

* Scientific is poorly balanced. You can get to Era VI easily enough, but the final five techs take far too long to learn and it becomes a very boring 'next turn, next turn' game where you do nothing for a loooong time. I would like to see this victory condition given a complete overhaul, as it is very dull at the moment.

* Wonder Victory is highly variable, due to poorly designed main quests. Many factions have to conquer multiple factions to complete their main quest, making this victory condition completely irrelevant. With the Broken Lords, I always reach multiple win conditions long before I finish their faction quest. If quests get an overhaul, this will be a far more interesting option, but as it stands very few factions can do this peacefully. Ironically, the Necrophages are one of the few who can do this without approaching an Elimination Victory!



EDIT:

For interest's sake, this is the ranking on people who have the Steam achievements for having completed the game with a particular victory type. The higher it is, the higher the percentage of Steam players who have won at least one game by this method:

1) Supremacy

2) Wonder

3) Score

4) Elimination

5) Science

6) Economic

7) Expansion

8) Diplomatic

It is clear to see, based on these, that most players either warmonger, play the main quest or run out of time :P



In the same vein, the achievements for factions tell us the percentage of players who have completed the game (at least once) with a given faction:

1) Vaulters

2) Wild Walkers

3) Cultists

4) Broken Lords

5) Drakken

6) Necrophages

7) (Custom)

8) Ardent Mages

9) Roving Clans

This surprises me a little, as I expected Broken Lords and Necrophages to be at the top, but I am not surprised Ardent Mages and Roving Clans are so unpopular.