I´ve seen many people talking about how much better you can scout if you split your initial army into 2 or even 3 different ones. I have to agree it´s really much better for scouting, but I question how much can scouting really make a difference in your end-results.



I never liked the option, but slowly I started to see the benefit of doing so in the first turn. I´ve been trying to decide ever since what was better, and I´ve made my mind after repeating this here several times in different scenarios.



I´ll use the opportunity to try and help illustrate what I think is wrong in terms of starting position right now, and what I mean when I talk about "turn 20 warfare" (a bunch of things you can do in the turns around the turn 20 itself to make sure that you´ll have a good prospect for the future, and not a bad one).



So, I got this absurd start as the Vaulters. That means I didn´t really require scouting right away for a position, but I did separate my armies slightly, in a way they could get back together in around 3 turns but still see all my region. The excess of yields, as I say in the description, forces me into concluding the best way to invest this is on Military Conquest, since I already have everything.



What´s important to note is that the fewer yields I had, especially dust, the more important it would be to stay as a single Army; and the worse my start, the riskier it would be to go early into offense, but success would mean that much larger a profit. What limits this last factor is production.



Comes turn 10, I´m talking to my Minor Faction thinking about bribing them, when I finally meet the dark blue. I had already spent money on Founder´s Memorial and finishing the third Marine, but the excess of money and approval + ruins guaranteed I have a lot of income. So I decide to dress up my three marines and engage the Broken Lords.



I´m using the example of having a lot of money because I hope to make the point that a Player Broken Lords in this endless AI´s situation (he´s in a region that looks like grassland with enchanted forest; here´s its Military Overview on Turn 10 and Turn 11) would have absolutely no hope of continuing the game. On turn 10.



But without the lots of money, it only makes it the more important to keep a cheap united army, that can even separate at the beginning of the turn, but which gets together at the end. The early money can get you a tiny extra everything with the Memorial, sure; but it can also mean that you´ll have an equipped three units army on your hero to ambush anyone "questing" for ruins, and then rush their capital while they´re changing from the Public Library that they´re building to a hopeless lonely Stalwart.

Certainly, if you plan to engage in turn 10 warfare, keeping your army together is a good idea. (You don't have to keep your hero with them though-- split him or her off no matter what.)



But with a single army, you can't bank on even meeting another faction within 10 turns. Maybe you will, maybe you won't. It depends on world settings too.

Turns out I won´t be able to rush the blue Broken Lords, they´ve already assimilated Dorgeshi (which in my experience is unusual, I often find them still pacifying villages until turn 20).



But check the size of this snowball. Had I met them without conditions of engaging, the settler would´ve gotten this awesome region that I had been planning to settle and pacify through it. It would be that much more gold* and titanium to my aggressive neighbor, and I would´ve had to go settle near another aggressive Vaulter to the South.

natev wrote:
Certainly, if you plan to engage in turn 10 warfare, keeping your army together is a good idea. (You don't have to keep your hero with them though-- split him or her off no matter what.)



But with a single army, you can't bank on even meeting another faction within 10 turns. Maybe you will, maybe you won't. It depends on world settings too.

I´m fairly sure I wouldn´t be able to kill all four stalwarts without the hero´s dmg/turn, and I´m certain I would lose at least one Marine without the hero´s defense boost+defense/turn. If any of those things happened, this would have been a worthless attack imo since I wouldn´t have really hurt his Military, I would´ve seriously hurt mine own along with my production snowball and I would´ve made a strong enemy.



The fact that I happened to meet him when he couldn´t immediately attack me (before I teleport the hero for example) was mere chance, odds are this won´t happen.



And I agree about the settings, of course. But this is Spread, with everything else is on standard 2 continents. I find it hard not to bump into someone, usually. And turn 10 is indeed early, but it would make little difference if it happened on turn 15 or 18 in terms of what I´m going to decide for turns 20 onwards, till thirty something.



edit: *-by gold I mean dust, I do that all the time

The following developments, if anyone´s interested.



Turn 13 - Trying to force further battles in bad conditions for the AI.



Turn 14 - Engaging as soon as he enters my territory.



Turn 15 - Continuing to explore the AI´s bad movement choices.



Turn 16 - Moving near his borders to try and spot other settlers.



Turn 17 - Hoping I can draw him to fight down in the south near my incoming cavalry, which won´t really work. He heads north, and so do I carefully.



Turn 19 - He´s headed to put my city in check, so I keep to the lakes while cavalry doesn´t arrive. I´m only going to get Dawn Officers 2 when I get back into my lands.



Turn 20 - Map Overview. I´ll go for unit discount and Ceratan assimilation. Defense will guarantee Stalwarts ridiculous attack won´t bother me, the unit is great cover against Burdekis and even poorly used future Ryders.



Turn 22 - Tensions rise. Will the Vaulters fall back to the mountains? Will the fresh Cavalry reach them in time for the fray? Only my next idle time will tell!



Turn 22 - His (not impressive) military that we were able to keep in a managable level.

BPrado wrote:


I´m fairly sure I wouldn´t be able to kill all four stalwarts without the hero´s dmg/turn, and I´m certain I would lose at least one Marine without the hero´s defense boost+defense/turn. If any of those things happened, this would have been a worthless attack imo since I wouldn´t have really hurt his Military, I would´ve seriously hurt mine own along with my production snowball and I would´ve made a strong enemy.

You don't need to give up the hero's damage-- you teleport him into the army when you recognize your opportunity. That way you preserve your ten turns or whatever of additional exploration, ruins, and parleys.

The fact that I happened to meet him when he couldn´t immediately attack me (before I teleport the hero for example) was mere chance, odds are this won´t happen.

Teleporting doesn't take any time. I'm afraid I don't understand.

And I agree about the settings, of course. But this is Spread, with everything else is on standard 2 continents. I find it hard not to bump into someone, usually. And turn 10 is indeed early, but it would make little difference if it happened on turn 15 or 18 in terms of what I´m going to decide for turns 20 onwards, till thirty something.

It does make a big difference whether it happens on turn 10 or on turn 20. If it happens on turn 10, you give up 10 turns of exploration for the skirmish opportunity. If it happens on turn 20, you've given up 20 turns. Usually, my army, always split three ways in the first turn, is consolidating just previous to turn 20 anyways because of minors. If you give up three times your exploration rate for a skirmish that doesn't happen until you would have consolidated anyways, you're not really gaining anything.



Depends on faction, of course. There are good reasons for Drakken and Necrophage to consider a unified exploratory force.

natev wrote:
You don't need to give up the hero's damage-- you teleport him into the army when you recognize your opportunity. That way you preserve your ten turns or whatever of additional exploration, ruins, and parleys.



Teleporting doesn't take any time. I'm afraid I don't understand.

When I met them at turn 10, I still had plenty of movements left. If I had no reason to stop just inside there (to talk to the village), it´s possible and likely that I would be out in the open with three (or one) marines in the middle of the Broken Lord´s movement. In that case, he would certainly immediately engage me, giving me no time to even click to assign the hero. I´m sure you can´t teleport him after the army is engaged, right?

It does make a big difference whether it happens on turn 10 or on turn 20. If it happens on turn 10, you give up 10 turns of exploration for the skirmish opportunity. If it happens on turn 20, you've given up 20 turns. Usually, my army, always split three ways in the first turn, is consolidating just previous to turn 20 anyways because of minors. If you give up three times your exploration rate for a skirmish that doesn't happen until you would have consolidated anyways, you're not really gaining anything.

Well, since I preffer to not take the risk myself of being ambushed, I will always be assuming the Isolation stance. I preffer to trade off the opportunity of searching 4~6 extra ruins that I might not have a chance later for the opportunity of actively leveling the Military competition. There´s a reasonable chance that the ruins will simply be empty, that the rewards will be useless in the short term, that you will trigger Lust for Loot and be faced with a huge cost of opportunity.



I preffer to give the least bit of usefulness to the Heroes that I buy at level 2 and have Indiana Bones by letting them search these ruins out of the way of my plans.

Depends on faction, of course. There are good reasons for Drakken and Necrophage to consider a unified exploratory force.

Drakken, the way it´s structured now, should conquer all. War is as much diplomacy as Peace, and they´re unstoppable with anything but very poor Capital location. And they even know exactly where they should go and what level of production they will be facing. And Nachampassea doesn´t need Support skills to be an awesome general, you can get food, influence and war. I see little reason why anyone would competitively play Drakken anything close to peacefully.



And the Necro need to eat, Forager is not made to live, so yeah, I always keep Feeds on Bones on the field, even often getting the Governor´s traits. how does a Necro on 2dust desert solves the production issue?

Developments:



Turn 23 - Another bad choice makes me able to rid him of armies once again.



Turn 30 - A winter, many "checks" and a battle later, now even endless doesn´t have the production to fight back.



Turn 38 - And a siege later, now it´s time to grow to lands I would´ve had to conquer from a strong competitor if I simply didn´t engage on turn 10.

I like to spread the army at turn 1, to check where the heck can I settle with the Vaulter's usually lousy start (lots of science with very little food and production)... You really got lucky with this one , BPrado! But some turns later I try to join the armies: the vaulter's units aren't that good, with only that 3 tiles range, and I like to keep them updated, so I need that extra gold income that I wouldn't receive with 3 roaming armies . Also, I like the XP boost the hero receives when searching ruins, so I like to keep it ahead the main army, getting those 10xp every time.

Some experience with Fast speed later, i can state the obvious - separating the army on fast speed is vital with most factions. Since MP is pretty much only Fast, I guess that could be a rule of thumb there.



You have half the time, you need double the coverage. Well thought paths and good dust starts certainly enable a 3 armies start. 2 ruins on fast speed can have four times the effect in copmarison to normal (values for successful search are not lower, but costs are).

The first big question for me, once I've settled my first city is 'what region will I colonize next'.



Splitting the units really helps with that.