So, minor obsession kicked in again, three years since my last guide and a few games later, here is another one. Part of it is I think the Forgotten (F from here out) need better understood by the community at a Meta level before someone does something ill considered in an attempt to balance them.





We will to start with the "maths" that make the Forgotten different. We will focus on the first 40 turns and try and weave these facts into a sequence later;



The first thing of note is that the F Founders Memorial makes 10D a turn, rather then 2S. This needs to be compared to the BL, which makes 4D rather then 2S. This means if there was ever an argument for buying out a Founders Memorial, it is the F.



Second, research costs the exact same amount in D that it does in S. Well, within .9, as for some reason all the science costs have decimals, and they are all rounded up in the D costs. Here is a table of costs for the first eight, just so you can wrap your head around it:



(0) 14*

(1) 19*

(2) 28

(3) 42

(4) 61

(5) 84

(6) 112

(7) 145

(8) 181



*Note the first two only apply to custom factions, as all vanilla factions start with two techs. Given a choice, why you would ever start with techs is very questionable for any faction, but specially with the F since you can get "Dust Arch 2/2" for 4 pts, which gives 42D....



The third is that rather then +20% research for your first policy, F gets "-20% research cost". In short, this means the F have a reason to hoard D until turn 20. This means the ROI for buying research has to be 20% better then it would be for any other faction.



Forth, influence is worth more to the F. Besides the fact that having enough I for two policies turn 20, when III hits, you certainly want to be able to get the "-50% research cost in past eras" policy, F really needs to play as wide as possible (for a lot of reasons but basically because "Dust Economy") and wide means policies please (+50% trade, +25 approval, etc).



Fifth, killing villages often gives boosters. Without this, the F are F'd. This is a RNG thing that can either make or break the F. If you get good ones, any plan can change radically. If you get enough mediocre ones, at the very least you can afford expansion disapproval. If you don't get any, you are likely going to miss the "milestones" necessary to compete at all.



Sixth, the fact that you plan to kill villages is a given, yet you cannot neglect "Language Squares" and all the outcomes from parleying villages. When playing even a little wide, you cannot afford to pass up knowing what quests are out there. Would you pay 50D, 5 Trit, and a few unit turns to start your first settler with 4 pop? Knowing that you need influence, is it worth it for your third settler to start on influence generation for 5 turns in order to get 3 pop and a booster? Knowing what quests are available before you start killing stuff needs to be part of the plan. Beyond all that, the XP on your Hero .... sigh.



Seventh, not all MF are created equal. Some can be snuffed by a single assassin out exploring and your starting hero (in general, ranged stuff). Some need more effort then it is worth (Silics, Demons, Haunted, etc). During the exploration phase, noting where the victims are and routing your units to kill them efficiently is key. On thing to keep in mind is that settlers bring militia with them ... even if they are only planted for a turn. Done correctly, your Hero is there for every fight and you line out your fights so that you have the forces in place to kill something every turn. If he doesn't have a kill to make, he has "Dust Boost 2" and likely needs healing – so he needs to skip back to a town ... preferring ones that are about to finish production ...



Eighth, buyout cost for past era buildings drops when you go up an era. Again, this lends itself to hoarding D. For a faction that can control EXACTLY when it gets tech ....



Last stop, the F adore water. Unlike the BL, which also loves water, the F collect food. Food = Pop and Pop is what drives the Dust Ramp in late game. While you might get some juice out of using the +1D on forest hero skill, and having one city placed for it to send you Hero home to when he is not killing stuff might be worth doing, every other city should be on water, if possible, and that forest should probably have a river in it. Not needed to research the science techs means you sure can afford the water tech without blinking, and you should plan accordingly.





Ok, so we know all this stuff. That's neat. The thing is, its a lot of stuff and its still all swimmy in our heads. We can't just do our normal stuff in the opening and its harder to auto-pilot. Ok, lets try and make it into something more ... functional.





Milestones:



Turn 1: Production / Exploration Economy

settle a Forest and/or Water

if you settle near the village in your starting province, kill it now (hero + militia and even 1 assassin as reinforce is more then enough)

que a Founders Memorial

start exploring



Turns 2 – 9:

all workers should be on I

explore first targeting ruins and knowledge of the map

throw down on Language Squares as early as possible

buy techs only if they have a ROI that means buying them now is better then buying them turn 20

get the early quest steps done for the free units

if you don't have buildings worth making, make settlers and military units



Turn 10: Production / Village Looting Economy

stop and make a "Phase I: Plunder Plan", accounting for MF quests worth doing and efficient harvest sequence

if your just rolling in Dust, consider Mercenary Market (as maybe your 3rd tech...)

based on your situation, you should know what techs are getting bought before Turn 20 and have bought most of them



Turns 11-19:

make sure to have 40 I by turn 20

have 2 settlers built by turn 20

remember to "salt the earth" turn 19 with any "labor camps"

your "labor camps" should be either high P (make units) or high D (make D)

if you don't have buildings worth making, make settlers, military units and influence



Turn 20: Production / Limited Dust / Village Looting Economy

use your boosters and buy policy(s)

plant your settlers for the duration (might be a different site/involve a one turn plant on a resource)

try and get all your early unit production done before you....

buy yourself to Era 2 and then grab "Prisoners, Slaves, and Volunteers"

consider upgrading your killers

stop and make a "Phase II: Plunder Plan"

do the math on the policies you want on turn 40



Turns 21-39:

flip your workers to Dust

you should mostly finish killing villages/doing quests during this period

while you can buy techs now, minimalism is still good; techs that enable things you cannot build yet are worth nothing

all remaining settlers should be made before you hit Era III

remember to "salt the earth" turn 39 with your "labor camps"

make sure to hit your influence goals (consider grabbing a Cultist Hero/Glory of Empire)

grab governors (BL, RC, and C) for all your cities

if you have the Glass, consider Alchemical Armor for the +D trinkets



Turn 40: Full Conversion to Dust Economy

use boosters and buy policy(s) (Econ 2 / Science 2)

plant your settlers for the duration

buyout buildings like crazy (strive to have governors present when you buy stuff....)

make sure there is a military unit at the bottom of each que, in case....



Turns 40-59: The Dust Ramp

don't die and hoard influence and dust for turn 60

blah blah blah



Turn 60: Endgame...

afford and purchase (Econ 2 / Science 3)

buy techs and buildings like crazy

blah blah blah, Victory





Re-Planning and RNG:



To clarify a bit, the above timeline assumes things are working clockwork. Like they say, no plan survives contact with RNG. Often, it is as simple as bad "rolls" on the first few ruins. Sometimes, you will get off track for positive reasons reasons; If you have to stop and fight a small war, maybe take a city or something in the process, it will often throw you behind on influence. Sometimes, you overextend a bit on expansion and have to wait for the investment to pay off.



When I get stuck running this route it is usually on lack of strategic resources - it is easy to make research faster then you can make the resources. It is a a very good idea to stop and consider what resources you will need and when at the same time you select a policy, to include about how far you think you will get in this next cycle in techs and what strategics you will want. On that subject, if RNG messes with your strategics, you pretty much need need to stop and make a plan to trade/take them from someone.



If it is not resources, it is influence. There is only so much that you can do, and RNG contributes a lot. If you don't get the dyes, can't get an early cultist hero, and/or can't grab the early Glory tech sometimes it is just math. If you think it is close, it is much better to make the decision to stick with the production economy for one more policy cycle then to weaken yourself too much putting all your eggs in one basket.



None of this is game over. I have had all of this and more occur and none of it has stopped me from sticking an econ victory by turn 125-130. Frankly, the only things that stop the shining consistently is two early aggressive/expansive neighbors on Endless. That is not the faction or the operator; that is the game. Games like those are frankly when you learn the most. Take it as a gift.





Extra Credit: Army Forge



Playing Guardians, Canal Locks/Husbandry Center unused are wasted potential. One city with an appropriate governor (like that Cultist you grabbed to get the influence for turn 40 maybe or a Necro on a 3 village city) and Canal Locks can produce plenty of units. Consider getting the HC up in early game and setting that city up for its role even in Era I. Keep in mind that a 3 MF city of a faction you assimilate has a local -15% cost to production for the associated unit type, both Necro and RC Heroes have a skill that can give another -24%, and net with Military 1 policy (-20% ) this adds up to -59%, and even a bad unit in that bulk ... If during 1st turn exploration you see a province with 3 MF that has a strong starting location you can reach quickly you might consider a different victory condition.





You may notice there is no mention of pillage, infiltration, or tech theft above. That is because, frankly, they are not worth doing until mid game, if ever. As to why, pillage requires someone else to have built things you can pillage (not available early) and has bad returns if you consider army upkeep vs garrison upkeep for the units, infiltration costs influence you sorely need early, and you only have one Hero early who you need to be teleporting all over the map killing villages and stopping off to make Dust and heal up etc. Beyond all that, AI or other players, it causes friction which is not worth the returns because; Peace = Trade Income and Military Spending = Less Dust Ramp.



A few other tricks that help:



Combat Exploration: Mucking up a village explores the whole battle field...

Slave Camp Violence: If you salt and replant a settler it respawns new militia...

Strategic Production: BL heroes and Silics. Mind this early as when you hit the ramp you will eat silly piles of strategics as you buy your way through techs/buildings.

Custom Factions: Businessmen 3/3. Who Can Do More Can Do Less. Enough said.

Unplanned Offensive: In 2 in 6 of my last runs, RNG gave me "Eayah's Arm". Your starting hero becomes gross. If this happens, you may as well just kill someone.

Early Violence: 4 T2 Assassins will smear an unsupported garrison straight through fortifications. Stealth makes that easy to achieve.



Last but not least, remember policies take effect the next turn (21/41/61 etc).



So, that covers a lot. I hear one last question; "Ok, I get the drift, so can you just tell me what techs are worth it during the early game and give me a build list to follow?"



Well, no. But I will refer you to an old post with a good primer to understanding math and ROI. It is over in the Endless Space guides section but the math isn't that different:



https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space/forum/33-strategy-guides/thread/14035-another-guide-to-factions-one-more-time-after-patch-1-0-14



and in case it helps, here is a link to a useful discussion of the Dust Economy:



https://www.games2gether.com/endless-legend/forum/9-tips-tricks/thread/3822-you-don-t-have-to-be-broken-to-ignore-industry-a-fdsi-primer

I'm going to use this as a dumping ground for things I learn as I keep torturing the "Ramp". At some point I'll integrate it.



- The most important strategic is Glass. Let it guide your settlers.



- A lot of it is you get early spices/dyes. Amazing how much that effects the long term outcome. Looking at ending turn, it seems to make at least a 5 turn difference.



- I've found some fruit in specializing cities. Drakken Hero on a mess of rivers seems to be one of the winners. When you hit the end, you would think it would be a lot less Dust production then a BL/RC... only its not. Endgame, Cultists aren't any lower on average either.



- The capital, with it's extra trade route, really seems to want a RC Gov. Only thing is, often that does not seem to matter as much as you would think. Other factors can matter more; key strategics and/or lots of native gold (BL), poor food (various answers), or high production/3 MF villages (C/N). One developed RC (where you put the customs house) seems to be as many as you really need.



- One thing I have learned to stop around turn 40-60 and look real hard at what late game boosters are in the game. Knowing what boosts you can diplo for later makes a difference in order of development.



- Trade income is sometimes irregular; sieges, diplomacy, etc. Often, I hit 4k or so from trade, which is not 4k at all with bonuses etc. IF you get the deeds, it can be higher, but not that much. As a base for this, 6 cities on a large map is what I am ending most games with. It is not something you want to neglect, but just making sure each city vomits Dust and Influence seems more important.



- Hero Boost Abilities:



Food Boost - 2 per level

Industry Boost - 2 per level

Dust Boost - 2 per level

Science Boost - 4 per level

Influence Boost - 1 per level



Dust Boost is the lame duck, and Science Boost is the clear winner...

Thanks for the guide! A few questions:

• How do you retrofit your beginning assassins, and what are the easiest villages?
• Does the Alchemy Institute add further reduction cost in previous eras? Have you found it worthwhile?
• What are these techs with good enough ROI prior to 1st plan, or is it best just to queue Founder->Settler->Assassin->Settler?
• When do you start building a serious army?
• What game speed are your milestones?

And then, just a couple of comments. While I approve of "labor camps," I wouldn't do this with your first settler. If you salt the earth with your starting city, you lose a free building-- the palace-- that gives a good chunk of dust to your starting city. And militia respawn every turn automatically, you don't need to salt the earth to get them to respawn.

natev wrote:
Thanks for the guide! A few questions:

• How do you retrofit your beginning assassins, and what are the easiest villages?
• Does the Alchemy Institute add further reduction cost in previous eras? Have you found it worthwhile?
• What are these techs with good enough ROI prior to 1st plan, or is it best just to queue Founder->Settler->Assassin->Settler?
• When do you start building a serious army?
• What game speed are your milestones?

And then, just a couple of comments. While I approve of "labor camps," I wouldn't do this with your first settler. If you salt the earth with your starting city, you lose a free building-- the palace-- that gives a good chunk of dust to your starting city. And militia respawn every turn automatically, you don't need to salt the earth to get them to respawn.

1. T1 armor and sword/axe. Buying the +1 move trinket for the hero helps him out a lot in early micro fights; base move 2 can kill you. If you have the cash, +1 move is always worth considering. +2 is harder to justify until you can afford +3 anyway.



2. I was just considering that along with Those Who Can... too late to test that game, hit econ the next turn - will test.



3.

Yes -

Search

Language



Often -

Foundry (cause settlers)

Refinery (cause of higher base D in capital)



Maybe -

Seed Storage is arguable, mainly because of winter; need it up early enough to get use out of it or you might as well sit on it. If your on a streak, it can be worth it.

Aqua .... The D from water thing sometimes works out - if you have the right start, though it is rare.

Merc Market can be worth it, though very situational.



Basically, saving 20% on small change is not a big deal. I try to keep it at 5-6ish; techs 7,8,and 9 become expensive enough it is hard to find a compelling reason. Often, just meeting your basic timeline you don't have to think about it; it is a lot to cram into a short period anyway.



4. Military production is something I do a little of constantly. I bulk naked units whenever I have ques empty. The hoarding that comes with the general strat means if you need a response force you buy one/upgrade one/merc one, as needed. Honestly, you can tech push at will, depending on the point in the game. Against people, I would imagine the safe route is that once you "boom" a little you can use your Era advantage to get violent/defensive. If it is working, I tend to upgrade the most experienced units as I pass eras and it is enough that the AI leaves me alone.



5. Normal. In a lot of ways, it is easier with a larger map/more players, mainly because of strategics/luxury/trade - small maps, you can get stuck.



*6. Capital is not considered a "labor camp"



One note on labor camps - salt the earth kills extractors, unlike the RC move. Careful with that.

Great guide! Out of curiosity, is the quest for hero and blades worth doing? The level 3 infiltration takes forever but the swords are quite a bargain. I end up spamming fight heroes once I get it with one turn cdr for armies and garrison once I get the swords but it's a hefty investment.



Edit: Nevermind the predatore trick didn't work when I tested it.

KissBlade wrote:
Great guide! Out of curiosity, is the quest for hero and blades worth doing? The level 3 infiltration takes forever but the swords are quite a bargain. I end up spamming fight heroes once I get it with one turn cdr for armies and garrison once I get the swords but it's a hefty investment.



Oh if you do questing. Early predatores tech let's you get two outfitted predatores if you retrofit beforehand before popping the reward. Nice trick if you pass on early assassin's.

Thank you. I'm glad it has helped people



I'd lean no on doing the infiltration; maybe if you bought another Forgotten hero to do it. The first hero too key in early game for me to mess with it. I do know that if you take the city, that satisfies the quest, and that happens pretty frequently. The hang time that kills me is the time to level her once you get her.



I didn't know that trick. If you don't mind, I will edit it into the guide. That's really useful.

Copperwire1632 wrote:
Thank you. I'm glad it has helped people



I'd lean no on doing the infiltration; maybe if you bought another Forgotten hero to do it. The first hero too key in early game for me to mess with it. I do know that if you take the city, that satisfies the quest, and that happens pretty frequently. The hang time that kills me is the time to level her once you get her.



I didn't know that trick. If you don't mind, I will edit it into the guide. That's really useful.

Edit: Just tested. The Predatore trick didn't seem to work (which is odd because I read about it in someone's Ardent Mage guide about a similar trick).





I didn't know taking the city worked too so I might work my way around trying that. At the very least I can pretend I'm getting a free infantry hero. (though if I recall, her stats are kinda crummy until she gets the swords power up)

KissBlade wrote:
At the very least I can pretend I'm getting a free infantry hero. (though if I recall, her stats are kinda crummy until she gets the swords power up)

You can certainly strap the +2D per pop trinket to her and buyout some stuff on a weak city

I like this thread, I'll see if I can give the Forgotten a whirl using your tactics, I'm far too bad with them for my own tastes. Keep it up!