Any army boosts that gives a triple boost is very desirable IMO (except for the stupid Roving Clan guy with army init 3, he's very niche).



Slavery is great for a triple village, especially if you're lucky enough that's it's a good minor faction military wise because you get a huge discount from necro governors.



Otherwise, Cultist governors are fairly standard with Ozek, Exid (both cultists) being particularly desirable for long term growth.



Wayra is awesome as well as Strikes Too Far.



I've actually been more fond of Strikes than Wayra as Wayra takes awhile to get growing while Strikes can make your city a troop factory which just snowballs the entire game.

Antistone wrote:
Am I understanding correctly that you uploaded a save game that relies on expansion content as an example to someone who just said they haven't played the expansions? How do you imagine I'm going to load it? (Actually, I just got the expansions for Christmas, so I could. But what were you expecting?)

I'm expecting that it's probably not of very much use to you, but should improve your confidence that I'm not just making things up, and should make the size of the difference clear. I don't think that this conversation is necessarily just between you and I, but also for the benefit of other players-- players like Xenophon, who started this thread, since it's to his or her question that we're all presumably giving answers.



However, if you're interested in seeing how I would do with boost vs efficiency in a vanilla game, I'll happily try it out and upload a save.



Edit: Did a normal speed, no DLC Drakken game, bought a slavery hero and documented population and level growth. A few comments re: normal speed: this actually makes quite a bit of difference, heroes are more easily affordable, and level much more easily (40 xp to lvl 2 on normal vs 30 xp on fast, not to mention reduced travel time for minor hunting). When I bought my first hero at turn 21, he went to a city with 3+3 population for a clear win for slavery/efficiency; if you count food as the equal of industry, a Strikes Far would have started being better 15 turns later, and presumably made up for the earlier deficit 15 further turns after that; where I'm currently at, turn 59, a boost 3 governor wouldn't beat out an efficiency 3 / slavery governor, and with the deficit to make up, it's hard to imagine it could make up the difference before the game was over. Fast games would shift the balance toward efficiency due to slower leveling. Governors purchased later would shift the balance toward efficiency due to larger initial populations. Attaching turn 21 save, at governor purchase, as well as turn 59 autosave.
AutoSave 3760.zip
Drakken 19NormNoDLC.zip

There´s also another nuance - Food Boost basically means Anything Boost+x%food, where x is very little but is there. That´s especially true for fast speed.

Am I understanding correctly that you uploaded a save game that relies on expansion content as an example to someone who just said they haven't played the expansions? How do you imagine I'm going to load it? (Actually, I just got the expansions for Christmas, so I could. But what were you expecting?)

natev wrote:
22 population is going to be something specific to BL, but any city worth stationing a governor in is easily going to have more population than the governor's level.

Subtle but important point: you don't need to have population equal to the hero's level, you need population equal to twice the hero's level (because Industry Efficient 1 adds 1 industry per pop, but Industry Boost 1 adds 2 industry per hero level). You do still have that in your example, but it's a much higher bar to meet.



(To beat Wayra Sigo, who has 5 ranks of boosts, a hero with an Efficient 3 or Slavery capacity would need a population >3.3x their level, which you barely meet with your crazy example. So...well done, I suppose.)



In my last 2 games (Drakken and Broken Lords), I think my cities started getting big enough to have triangular layouts (10 population) in the ballpark of turn 80 (normal speed, so proportionally about where you are in your fast game), and that at that time I had about 4-5 governors hitting level 5-6. That's from memory, though, so if you care about the details I'll have to look them up when I get home.



It's certainly possible that differences in playstyle and/or expansions could give us different results. (e.g. it sounds like you don't buy heroes as early as I do.)

I also think boosts are better than efficiencies, except for Dust. But I think Cultists are better enough than Wild Walkers for mp that if I´m faced with Andom/Ozek/Exid vs Wayra/Tlato, I´ll go for the cultists everytime. I´m pretty sure it would be different under the balance patch.



Single player is much more forgiving and depends much less on science and much more on industry, so I´ll go for Wayra Sigo/Strikes Far 100% time I´m able to buy an early hero.

Antistone, let me give you an example of what I'm talking about-- I'll just use this game that I'm in the middle of, where I just uploaded a save to talk about a bug.



It's fast turn 38. My starting hero is level 5. Exid the Chosen, who I bought around turn 10-15 or so, is level 6. I've recently-- not before turn 30-- bought two new heroes. One is level 2. One is still level 1.



The city in which Exid is stationed has a population of 22. Admittedly, better than my average game. I started it to work on my BL opening.



In my experience, a game where a non-starting hero reaches level 8 is an unusual one, and there isn't usually enough dust to get a hero everywhere-- yet they are most valuable in the largest cities. 22 population is going to be something specific to BL, but any city worth stationing a governor in is easily going to have more population than the governor's level. And outside of the rare specialist cities, most of my population is never going to leave industry anyways. I never have a situation where my best governor is level 3 yet my best city only has 4 population-- outside of starting Cult. My ungoverned cities have at least 4 population before I'm even considering buying a (level 1) governor.



It's true that some of this is due to DLC-- dust transmuter is responsible for my ridiculous BL population, and husbandry center would be useful for other factions. At the same time, the DLC also improves the rate with which governors level via industry bonuses in the megapole and canal locks. Even without DLC, it's rare for my governors to level faster than my population grows, only possible via intensive MF hunting, and then, with only a single hero, so generally reserved for a general type.
Broken Lords - Turn 38.zip

natev wrote:
My first choice of governor is Exid the Chosen, the Cultist hero with Industry Efficiency 2.

...

My second choices of (early) governors are usually Necrophage with the Slavery capacity, which essentially means Industry Efficiency 3 + Food Efficiency 3. -24% unit reduction cost is a very nice capacity to have as well, and available very early. Strikes Far is often pointed at as a good Necrophage governor because he has both Industry and Food boost, but he lacks Slavery, which I prefer.

Food/Industry Boost is strictly better than Food/Industry Efficiency (of the same level) unless your city population is at least twice your hero's level. That's rarely true for me. (Note: I have not played with expansions, which I understand give better support for a "tall" playstyle.)



Even if your population is twice the hero's level, "boost" is still more flexible than "efficiency" (you keep the benefit even if you switch your workers to a different category). Also, you can get the full benefits from a second "boost", whereas a second "efficiency" is mostly wasted.



So I suspect you are significantly overvaluing Slavery. It's good, but it's not that good. It's best when it shows up on a new hero you're buying in the late-game that is going to go into an already-big city and won't have time to level up much. (Whereas Wayra Sigo is best in the early game, when he can help grow small cities and will have time to level up and get the building cost reduction skill.)



Cultist heroes have a similar issue: their first governor skill (+1 FIDSI per worker) is powerful and versatile, especially compared to many other low-level hero skills, but it's only really useful in high-population cities (and best when you're assigning pop to influence). If you drop them into a new, small city, they're not doing much.



Level 3 Exid the Chosen in a 4-pop city is adding 16 industry and +2% industry (assuming you put his 2 skill points into the first Cultist skill and assign all population to industry). Level 3 Wayra Sigo is adding (IIRC) 18 industry, 12 food, +3% industry, and +2% food (without spending any skill points at all, and no matter where you assign population). I think that's an easy win for Wayra Sigo until pretty late in the game. (I might have Sigo's food and industry backwards; don't remember for sure.)

My first choice of governor is Exid the Chosen, the Cultist hero with Industry Efficiency 2. By level 4, he's a mobile canal locks. Ozek, with Influence Boost 3, is good too of course, and there's nothing wrong with Andom. I would take any of these three over Wayra Sigo or Strikes Far, with any faction, in any game.



My second choices of (early) governors are usually Necrophage with the Slavery capacity, which essentially means Industry Efficiency 3 + Food Efficiency 3. -24% unit reduction cost is a very nice capacity to have as well, and available very early. Strikes Far is often pointed at as a good Necrophage governor because he has both Industry and Food boost, but he lacks Slavery, which I prefer.



I sometimes use BL heroes for strategic generation. Dust Boost 3 (The Shadow) is preferential for this, because it's usually in tiny outposts where population is never, ever coming off of production or influence.



Any Drakken can make an excellent general. Bigballs, who knows as well as anyone, says Nachampessa is the best. In general, all you've got to look for is high levels of Army Health Boost on these Drakken. My second choice for general is usually a Broken Lords hero, especially one with Defense Boost 3.



I'm not very fond of either Initiative Boost or Damage Boost on a general, because either is so easy to acquire via insignia.

There was a Forgotten hero (Sable?) that has Army Damage Boost 2 and Army Initiative Boost 2. I find her to be a very good general, and becomes even better with the Forgotten (access to Zeima's weapons).



The starting Drakken hero is an excellent general (probably the best one).



There is also a Broken lords hero that has dust efficiency 3 (forgot if it was John Port "the Shadow" or Peyton Quinn), who in combination with the Broken Lords tree, is a very good dust governor, especially on cities on rivers.



The Ardent mages have a hero with science boost 3 which lends herself quite well to being a science governor, aided in large part by the Ardent mage racial tree.



Ozek the Chosen is imo the best city governor for a "mature" city (with a big population). She also has influence boost, which is always useful.

How do the experts here use the initial hero? It seems that folks are divided between using him as governor or a general, and I am seeking detailed responses on the pros and cons. Numbers-crunching is welcome as well!

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
If you can, get Wayra Sigo. He's the best WW hero for being a jump starter governor.

Wow, just checked stats. Both food and industry bonuses!



Who else are considered the top heroes - either in terms of governing or leading armies - in general?

Xenophon wrote:
I was thinking of WW start primarily. And yes, I did note that WW heroes have very useful building cost reduction capacities!

If you can, get Wayra Sigo. He's the best WW hero for being a jump starter governor.

I don´t think I´ve ever used Wild Walker´s starting hero as a general. ^^



Wild Walkers - Governor

Cult - Governor

Roving Clans - Governor

Ardent Mages - Governor

Broken Lords - Governor/General depending on terrain

Vaulters - General

Necro - General

Drakken - General

Forgottten - Spy

The "reassignment cooldown" can really rocket your xp early game if you bounce the hero properly with exploration. Especially useful on heroes you plan to use for governors in the WW/Forgotten pool.

natev wrote:
If you're playing with WW, I'd make your starting hero a general. That gives you good early exploration, which means good dust. A little ways into your quest, you'll get a WW hero that will quickly be as good a governor as your starter would ever be.



If you're picking up a WW hero as a purchase, I think they make the best job as city jumpstarters. That's means climbing the racial tree to building cost reduction.

I was thinking of WW start primarily. And yes, I did note that WW heroes have very useful building cost reduction capacities!

If you're playing with WW, I'd make your starting hero a general. That gives you good early exploration, which means good dust. A little ways into your quest, you'll get a WW hero that will quickly be as good a governor as your starter would ever be.



If you're picking up a WW hero as a purchase, I think they make the best job as city jumpstarters. That's means climbing the racial tree to building cost reduction.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
This is a pretty tough question, since it heavily depends on faction, and to a lesser degree on starting situation and victory condition you want to pursue.

For example, I think Ranged heroes make very nice additions to Vaulter armies, thanks to the bonus range skill and the skills boosting attack and damage. But if I want to finish the Vaulters quest, then I should skill the starting hero as a governor (even though Vaulters aren't exactly great governors) since the quest requires a high-level governor skill.

But I'm sure there are other players who can go into great detail about strategies for the different factions.

I see - how about Wild Walkers? I play Vaulters and Wild Walkers exclusively for now.

This is a pretty tough question, since it heavily depends on faction, and to a lesser degree on starting situation and victory condition you want to pursue.

For example, I think Ranged heroes make very nice additions to Vaulter armies, thanks to the bonus range skill and the skills boosting attack and damage. But if I want to finish the Vaulters quest, then I should skill the starting hero as a governor (even though Vaulters aren't exactly great governors) since the quest requires a high-level governor skill.

But I'm sure there are other players who can go into great detail about strategies for the different factions.