danrelle wrote:
My question is, what would be the alternative to playing for Tier 2 Empire Plan in the early game? I haven't found an opening that has similar strength.

As I've never played the vanilla game, I'd suggest not treating what I'm about to say as gospel, just a semi-educated guess:



I'd guess doing three rapid cities. If capital is Food/Industry heavy, could go up to 3 pop and then crank out two settlers (ideally do Founder's and maybe Mill Foundry prior to Settlers but nothing else). Otherwise 2-3 pop (depending on Industry heavy the terrain is, might need to build Mill Foundry to get the settler done in a reasonable amount of time), one settler which goes to the better Food/Industry region of your two choices, then that one builds a Settler after Mill Foundry while the capital gets itself back on its feet. Probably literally just ignore the Empire Plan on turn 20 -- even the 20% Science bit won't do all that much at that point and making sure you can get a tier 2 plan on turn 40 is more important, I think.

danrelle wrote:
Is settling pre- Empire Plan viable at all on Endless difficulty?

Think the larger question is more "is settling at all viable on Endless difficulty?" If you have early game Ardent Mage or Broken Lord neighbors in particular you might be setting yourself up to get wiped out by expanding at all prior to having an established military. Been rushed on turn 32ish Normal Speed by Ardent Mages with a full 6 stack of troops plus a hero plus a second army of a few units (and of course they had even more units in their cities/territory). Plus, of course, the AI can settle two new regions before you even settle one.



My guess is that if settling is viable at all, then three super early cities will work (incidentally, it is very difficult to get that Era II plan on turn 20 for most factions with a reasonable start without having to sacrifice massive amounts of Industry for either Science or Influence).

Balkoth wrote:


My guess is that if settling is viable at all, then three super early cities will work (incidentally, it is very difficult to get that Era II plan on turn 20 for most factions with a reasonable start without having to sacrifice massive amounts of Industry for either Science or Influence).

It's true that entering Era II on T20 means working science and some influence, but it's not that much of a sacrifice... 1 to 1 industry to science for some turns, not more than 20 obviously, for a payout at the end that can be an industry modifier for a full 20 turns. The modifier from the Empire Plan usually provides lots more industry than the difference from working entirely industry pre T20.



You probably need to work some science in the first 20 turns just to keep a balance of unlocking buildings and production. Unless, of course, it's worth investing in settlers (then you always have something to build and don't have to wait to unlock new buildings fast). Broken Lords is an exception, where settlers quickly might work well. (I just read natev's guide, ty for that natev. Though it assumes multiplayer settings, it's probably not bad even for starts without abundant anomalies.)



I'll have to test going all out settling again for BL and for the rest... It's been hard to make it work though.

1. high industry + moderately high food is pretty specific to look for in the average start...

2. if food is high enough and you actually build settlers (rather than making them with overflow) you pay a lot more food from stagnation... that feels overly expensive... (this is solved for BL and I guess this is very important)

3. new cities don't come with a capital (+22 dust), just with a town hall (-10 dust)...

4. happiness matters... so much that sometimes settling a city, if it changes capital happiness, say from happy to content, the new city hardly improves empire production.

5. I entirely agree that having more cities means having larger borders and sometimes this asks for trouble...



It's true that new cities make food and industry spent there much more efficient. I guess it's worth testing this in a systematic way.



Talking through all that though, it seems to me that aiming for Era II before the first Empire Plan is most often the best course. It's not heavily dependent on the start (it works for good food/industry starts and for science starts).

danrelle wrote:
It's true that entering Era II on T20 means working science and some influence, but it's not that much of a sacrifice... 1 to 1 industry to science for some turns, not more than 20 obviously, for a payout at the end that can be an industry modifier for a full 20 turns. The modifier from the Empire Plan usually provides lots more industry than the difference from working entirely industry pre T20.

Something you should know is that you're sort of preaching to a person who's strongly argued in favor of getting to Era II by turn 20 to other people. You don't have to convince me that the benefits of the turn 20 Era II plan can be massive. The question is whether you're having to give up too much in the first 20 turns to achieve that goal.

danrelle wrote:
You probably need to work some science in the first 20 turns just to keep a balance of unlocking buildings and production.

Even as Mezari (+1 Science per tile with science, +8 Science a turn from governor, etc) I haven't been able to make Era II by turn 20 on some starts while working only Industry/Influence (and I hadn't caught up on my production queue whatsoever). The only faction I've been consistently able to get to Era II on turn 20 with the Influence for the plan is Forgotten. If you have 2+ anomalies (especially if you get Approval/Industry/Science anomalies) then it's certainly far more reliable but I think we need to keep in mind the type of start we're getting.



Now, it may be worth it to get behind in the production queue even more (and thus delaying buildings even more) solely in the effort to massively save from turn 21 to 40...but it's not nearly as clear-cut as a situation where you're only sacrificing Industry for Science/Influence for a few turns.

danrelle wrote:
I'll have to test going all out settling again for BL and for the rest... It's been hard to make it work though.

Keep in mind that it is NOT all out settling but rather exactly three cities quickly. The goal is to simply let them start their own infrastructure as soon as possible.

danrelle wrote:
1. high industry + moderately high food is pretty specific to look for in the average start...

I didn't say "high" but rather "better." Simply a question of "Of those two regions I want to settle, which can make a settler of its own faster?" That doesn't necessarily make it "high" -- looking for the least bad option, if you will.

danrelle wrote:
3. new cities don't come with a capital (+22 dust), just with a town hall (-10 dust)...

On the flip side, unless you get Peace you can't use trade routes with only one city. And one worker on Dust with the Empire Plan (7 base plus several modifiers) basically cancels out the new upkeep.

danrelle wrote:
4. happiness matters... so much that sometimes settling a city, if it changes capital happiness, say from happy to content, the new city hardly improves empire production.

Happy gives a 15% bonus. So say capital Industry at that point is 30. Happiness is responsible for 4.5 Industry per turn. 1 base Industry and a worker on Industry already does more in the new city, at the cost of needing to do basic infrastructure first.

danrelle wrote:
It's not heavily dependent on the start (it works for good food/industry starts and for science starts).

I haven't really done any methodical testing regarding this except as Forgotten, but for several other races it did seem heavily start dependent. It's certainly possible I could improve my build/tech order and shift workers around, but I'd find it interesting if you could share your results on this (important to know things like how many anomalies and of what type as well).

Thank you for taking the time to reply, Balkoth! ^_^

Seems we mostly agree. I only thought to post because I didn't find the strategy of rushing for Era II in this thread.



I've been finding that some important changes to the Empire resource output mainly occur by accident, some lucky quest, or location or circumstance. Randomness makes discussing specific strategy at a general level harder. If I get Shadows and Guardians I will start posting some games or you could post some more of yours. I've enjoyed the last game you posted and would enjoy seeing Endless wins too. Maybe Endless Necrophages would be fun!



It's probably just a matter of taste, the opening, as there seems to be more than one way of winning, even on Endless. Era I rushing off of one city seems to work sort of reliably, though it might not be fun the second time you do it. Hiding behind peace treaty after a rush to the relevant tech certainly works, for those who don't want early aggression. Hiding in general is a good strategy; the more turns you stall the AI, the likelier it seems that they will squander all advantages.



It's more a question of what you find fun. :P

I haven't tried multiplayer yet, but that sounds really exciting! ^_^

danrelle wrote:
Seems we mostly agree. I only thought to post because I didn't find the strategy of rushing for Era II in this thread.

Fair enough, I admit I haven't actually read it except your recent posts and beyond. Like I said, I've been arguing with people in other threads in favor of the Era II by turn 20 strat *when reasonable.*

danrelle wrote:
I've been finding that some important changes to the Empire resource output mainly occur by accident, some lucky quest, or location or circumstance. Randomness makes discussing specific strategy at a general level harder.

I don't necessarily completely disagree, but what did you have in mind specifically?

danrelle wrote:
If I get Shadows and Guardians I will start posting some games or you could post some more of yours. I've enjoyed the last game you posted and would enjoy seeing Endless wins too. Maybe Endless Necrophages would be fun!

What type of Victory for Endless Necrophages? Only played them once (Endless, wound up doing a Wonder Victory since I was bored conquering half the continent and was too lazy to do the other half).

danrelle wrote:
Hiding in general is a good strategy; the more turns you stall the AI, the likelier it seems that they will squander all advantages.

Not just that, but FOUNDING cities is awful...TAKING cities is amazing. Let the AI build up all the infrastructure with their advantages (easy to make settlers, super fast growth/buildings, etc)...then requisition those cities for your own use (hey, with the lack of Defender's Advantage you need a big army ANYWAY just to defend yourself, might as well put it to work).

danrelle wrote:
I haven't tried multiplayer yet, but that sounds really exciting! ^_^

It can be. It can also be awful when people abuse certain mechanics or act like jerks. If you want to add me on Steam I'd be happy to do some games with you -- and since I have all the expacs, if I'm hosting you'll get them too.

Balkoth wrote:


I don't necessarily completely disagree, but what did you have in mind specifically?

I was trying to formulate some conditions when entering Era II is a good goal to set from Turn 1, or when aiming to rush a neighbor might be a good goal. Then I started to realize it's too dependent on finding some dye in a relic, or some wine, or some convenient parley quest...

Balkoth wrote:


What type of Victory for Endless Necrophages? Only played them once (Endless, wound up doing a Wonder Victory since I was bored conquering half the continent and was too lazy to do the other half).

^_^ I get lazy to finish games like that too. Total military domination is a good enough victory condition for me, I'm not big on seeing the actual Victory screen if the game becomes a chore.

I like Military games with Necrophages. There is no peace to hide behind and rushing very early is not particularly easy. Era II attacks with proliferators, especially management of resources to gain the military spike are interesting to me.

Balkoth wrote:


Not just that, but FOUNDING cities is awful...TAKING cities is amazing.

Agreed, the industry equivalent boost from conquering even one city is sort of broken.

Balkoth wrote:
If you want to add me on Steam I'd be happy to do some games with you -- and since I have all the expacs, if I'm hosting you'll get them too.

Well, that's a kind and generous offer! Thank you! I'll definitely consider taking advantage of it. ^_^

I think some weekends I could definitely make time for several hours of play in a row.

danrelle wrote:
I was trying to formulate some conditions when entering Era II is a good goal to set from Turn 1, or when aiming to rush a neighbor might be a good goal. Then I started to realize it's too dependent on finding some dye in a relic, or some wine, or some convenient parley quest...

I don't think you really need to find anything -- I'm actually usually just sitting tight on with my troops garrisoned at that point. I think the more important part is going to involve at least two anomalies with hopefully one of them giving approval. And a start with good Industry/Science, Food and Dust are much less important.

danrelle wrote:
^_^ I get lazy to finish games like that too. Total military domination is a good enough victory condition for me, I'm not big on seeing the actual Victory screen if the game becomes a chore.

I like Military games with Necrophages. There is no peace to hide behind and rushing very early is not particularly easy. Era II attacks with proliferators, especially management of resources to gain the military spike are interesting to me.

I'll be honest, I didn't even use Proliferators. Didn't realize what they could do or how Battleborn worked. Nor did I abuse things like feeding militia to villages for cadavers. Just filled the sky with Necrodrones.

danrelle wrote:
Agreed, the industry equivalent boost from conquering even one city is sort of broken.

Which is made even worse by the fact that taking cities is so easy due to the lack of Defender's Advantage...

Balkoth wrote:
I don't think you really need to find anything -- I'm actually usually just sitting tight on with my troops garrisoned at that point. I think the more important part is going to involve at least two anomalies with hopefully one of them giving approval. And a start with good Industry/Science, Food and Dust are much less important.

Hmm, this thread recommends splitting the initial units into three armies and extensively exploring the surroundings. There are strategic benefits to that, but obviously downsides as well, it does cost dust.



Honestly, I thought you only avoided exploration because it was only Serious difficulty in your video and you could probably afford to be lazy.



I believe the risk vs reward depends very strongly on game speed. On Normal and slower speeds it's generally very beneficial to explore and you end up with a lot of information/ get quite far. On Fast speed you are more likely to simply lose dust, i.e. pay to know your surroundings, with no gains from ruins.



All this is only applicable if you don't have Language square though, if you do, parley quests and getting pacification is a big boost in a region you aim to settle soon.

Balkoth wrote:
I'll be honest, I didn't even use Proliferators. Didn't realize what they could do or how Battleborn worked. Nor did I abuse things like feeding militia to villages for cadavers. Just filled the sky with Necrodrones.

That would also be very fun to see! ^_^

Which speed is your strategy for? On fast, I think settling on turn 20 is way too slow, no? Seems like AI has, or is working on getting, 3 cities at that point.

Jamzie wrote:
Which speed is your strategy for? On fast, I think settling on turn 20 is way too slow, no? Seems like AI has, or is working on getting, 3 cities at that point.

Settling by T20 was meant to be for Normal speed. However, I believe the advice in this thread is more or less obsolete. I recommend the guide of Jojo_Fr for optimal play early, mid and late game.

Ooo interesting. I didn't know about that hero at all for some reason. Thanks.

Great post. Should be very helpful to people trying to grok the game.

NucleusAccumbens wrote:
Great post. Should be very helpful to people trying to grok the game.

I agree and I have to say that I have a quite similar approach of those 40 first turn, else about Empire Plan, I save my influence points while its not really useful at the beginning scale...

Wow practically exactly the same opening as me. Only thing different is that I wouldnt go for alchemical alloys as I need tons of basic resources to build later buildings. You also want to equip your units with improve dmg that makes a big difference.



Also playing in endless I build 2 units soonish to have a fully army capable of repelling aggresions

Oh yes the first tech of era 2 for me is the peace one. Reaso is that first peace against the ai you can get dust out of it and you can buy governors with that money

Nice guide. I actually keep my hero with one of the troops till I get my first level up



Also a good piece of advice is that the settler can't settle on an army. So your first turn you split a soldier off and send him in one direction, if you see a good city starting point, whatever you do, don't end up on that tile or you have to wait till next turn when he moves.

timally wrote:
Also a good piece of advice is that the settler can't settle on an army. So your first turn you split a soldier off and send him in one direction, if you see a good city starting point, whatever you do, don't end up on that tile or you have to wait till next turn when he moves.

If you own the army that's standing on the desired location, couldn't you merge the settler into that army, and then order that army to found the city?

Antistone wrote:
If you own the army that's standing on the desired location, couldn't you merge the settler into that army, and then order that army to found the city?

That could be a good point. I'll try it next time :blush:



Merging maybe take the action point away, and stop you settling tho?

Merging does not take action points, just a movement point. It's not even very accurate to say it uses a movement point, because whether you move unit A into unit B on hex C to merge them, or whether you simply move unit A to hex C, it costs the same movement points.

This is great. I have had the game in my library for a while, but played very little. Is there a guide on the minors as well? I dont quite get how this pacify thing works, and seem to remember something about being able to include only one minor into your nation fully (getting a new unit to build). Enlighten me please Is it extremely important to chose the right minor?