The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:


However, Knights point about specialization is the most important issue brought up in this thread in my opinion. In Endless Space, even if I did manage to specialize my Empire (Say, getting the Sheredyn Buyout bonus up to -90% and just spending Dust on everything), I would still have to research every last improvement and module I did not care about.

Endless Space 2 should enable and encourage trying out different play styles and specializations, rather than homogenizing all factions into "research everything."

What is puzzling is that Endless Space actually has more diverse factions than in Galactic Civilizations 2, or at least has more unique and significant affinities, bonuses, and maluses for each faction, which almost forces them to play differently. A craver's priorities, perspective, goals, and modus operandi is drastically different than a Sophon's. A craver that does not expand maniacally sets itself up for failure. In Galactic Civilizations 2, some races were better at some things than others, but at the end of the day you can feasibly and competitively do anything with any race, because in essence they are similar (the special ability of each race does not differentiate them nearly as much as affinity does in ES).



So it's this almost paradoxical situation, where by all rights Endless Space should have factions play radically differently, and to an extent they do, but they are still being forced to research more or less the same things, and so in effect play kind of similarly. Whereas Galactic Civilization has similar factions, but they still had a lot of freedom when it came to research and possible play-styles.



If I am to attempt to visualize it, I'd say that Galactic Civilization operates more like a line branching out, whereas Endless Space starts off with different branches which converge to one line.



So not only should different play-styles and research priorities be viable and rewarding in Endless Space, but faction diversity should also be maintained and expanded upon. A craver should not be able to become an economic powerhouse through turtling or to be a diplomatic power. A Hissho should not be able to neglect its bushido, without lagging behind everyone else. This, imo, should still remain, but should thus be reflected by different research priorities and specializations that each faction can take to fulfill their different objectives (in addition to more unique technologies as mentioned).



There is a delicate balance that needs to be reached, in my eyes, where factions remain fundamentally different and incapable of viably going on certain paths or even barred from them, while at the same time having each faction be able to have different ways and specializations to take advantage of their affinity and fulfill their goals (say a Sophon who turtles and techs up in isolation vs a Sophon who plays tech broker and diplomat vs a Sophon that boosts science by trade), WITHOUT ending up with all factions essentially researching all the same tech and behaving the same way as was the case in ES.



It will not be easy to reach such a balance, for sure. Perhaps even less easy to teach the AI to behave differently for each faction.



EDIT: it's easier to visualize what I mean







Factions in Galactic Civ 2 are more or less the same fundamentally, but you can play very differently with them and specialize in your research. Factions in Endless Space are diverse and different, but you end up playing them more or less the same and end up researching more or less the same things. The ideal, would have different factions being able to specialize and branch out all the while remaining within their unique parameter that distinguishes them from other factions.



I recognize the ideal is very difficult to reach, perhaps impossible even, and that overlap will inevitably occur. But I think this is what it should lean towards. I believe Endless Legend came closer to that ideal than Endless Space, and should have its efforts expanded on.

I think there are two elements about it : the intricacies of the science process itself, whether make it more organic/random/realist or similar to other 4X games (pick a tech, accumulate science units, unlock) and the way the techs are available and the amount of freedom.



The way I see it, both in ES and EL, the issue was a kind of false freedom. As said before with nice graphs, you had a nice early start followed by mandatory rounding up of techs. The worst was the military because it needed the resources tech from science, the chassis/movement techs from exploration, the fleet techs from economy and the weapons techs. Going deep into a branch was not a viable alternative.



As said above the factions themselves were quite unique, but I'm afraid you picked a playstyle the moment you selected your faction, and couldn't really do something else on the go.

I'll be quite happy with a tree system if it had branches that offered viable alternative to each others and a commitment.



When posting in the EL forum of often used the FFH mod example because of the way science worked in it. You would pick branches that offered each a way to strenghten your empire, and could knowingly ignore others for a long time.

In the case of a space based game, it would needs some differents concept, and I get that nowadays there is visible tightening of military/techologic choices (everyone uses jet/MBT, etc...) and it makes certainly sense that every space faring race would use the same kind of weapons and tactics. BUT THIS IS A GAME. When confronted to other factions it would be immensely more fun to have to consider the different challenges they pose.



Let's imagine what it could mean.

Machine based factions could be more or less not affected by morale issues. Whereas others could use it both to their advange or work agains them.

There could be ideology/religion/fervor based branches that would try to offset raw scientific superiority with zealous figher/production/population grow.

Deceptive technology and tactics branches to allow harassment/disruption/assymetrical warfare

branches That are about making the most of giant cities/planets with huge mining operation world factories etc versus techs making the most of colonies/outposts/spreadout empire.



Ideally when achieving a goal one could go from "I need to get this and this and this" to "I'll pick this solution that will allow me to do it with a limitation"

For instance : one could pick techs aiming at improving planets (terran/ocean/arrid/trundra) or techs that are about setting up in places that don't remotely allow life : gas giant/lava/sterile/asteroids. SO rather than have one tech for each planet type, make techs that encompass a whole category but unlock differents advantage later.

Or in the scientific side, techs that aim at gaining science from improvement/observation (traditionnal science facilities) other that use the "private sector" by using population/wealth/commerce and other that simply try to scrap knowledges from espionnage and battle experience. The idea is that since it's not viable to not invest in science, have the players pick a way to stay into the arm race with different approaches.

Ex : I can pick arid/desert and learn how to improve atmospheric and global food/dust production in general, or pick asteroidd/gas giants/Sterile and focus on "space bases", confinement and more generally outputs from remote places. (with industry and science)



And finally I'd like to have more unique techs not necessarily for one specific faction, but rather groups of factions that have similarities. Something others can't have and making a difference in the way you interact with them if they choose to pursue them.

Like for very "pure scientifics oriented faction" some time warping/defensive measure on their ships vs heavy repairing abilities on factions using more crude designs.

I would prefer it if the player received varying amounts of points for research into various research "trunks" at once. The rate you can research a trunk is dependent on your planets, infrastructure, events, and degree of tension that your empire has with other races. An empire with many trade agreements and not at war would be researching economic techs quickly, while military innovation would stall.

I would like a science and research system that requires a certain amount of science to be generated in the first place to be able to unlock a tier of science. Alternatively, structures on planets must be built to help research science (getting more out of both the exploitation system and the science system)

I have an idea .The idea is that you need some requirements for some special and lategame researces ,like planets anomalis wonders or ather researches and so on.

Examples : Need "advanced com" tech fom Military techtree for "Sciencist forum and Data web" tech from science techtree , for "interplanetary delivery system " on produktion tree you need 2 or 1 trade techs or for a better trading route tech you need at least 5 trading routes at the same time or you can research techs wenn you have wonders or anomalys or planets for some rounds.



(This is my first comment here . And I am sorry because my english is not very well)

I would like something similar to SotS1 myself.

You could do a mixture of both..



Have a full branching tech tree. Have an option in the main menu to play with full research visability. This way anyone who want to choose techs can (similar to SMAC). Then have a limited research option. Under this option you have to choose between Tech A and Tech B. Tech A and Tech B are randomly selected from the pool of available techs to research. So you still have some choice but every game would play out differently.



You could also have it where you pick a general science direction. IE: 80% science into Expansion Techs and 20% in Warfare Techs. Then that science is applied to a specific tech (that you dont pick) in that tree.

@MTB-Fritz



Thats exactly how I see it too, this option should be available as a game modifier.

This early in development it should be possible to include an option to "switch" from determined to random research trees under game settings in order to add more replayability and appease two different camps.



Personally I like the idea of random technologies being available but not as a fixed constant. If its an option to chose then yes very much. If I had to decide between the two I d vote: stay with one "hard" research tree. (for the simple reason that this kind of randomness would make certain matches impossible to win which is a big no-no in my book)

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
There is a delicate balance that needs to be reached, in my eyes, where factions remain fundamentally different and incapable of viably going on certain paths or even barred from them, while at the same time having each faction be able to have different ways and specializations to take advantage of their affinity and fulfill their goals (say a Sophon who turtles and techs up in isolation vs a Sophon who plays tech broker and diplomat vs a Sophon that boosts science by trade), WITHOUT ending up with all factions essentially researching all the same tech and behaving the same way as was the case in ES.



It will not be easy to reach such a balance, for sure. Perhaps even less easy to teach the AI to behave differently for each faction.



The ideal, would have different factions being able to specialize and branch out all the while remaining within their unique parameter that distinguishes them from other factions.

That is precisely the kind of balance I would like to see. Each faction should have some outstanding abilities and areas it can not neglect, yet be able to play tot hose strengths and weaknesses in different ways. As far as the AI is concerned, though, I believe that it may be difficult, but it is certainly not impossible. To take a joking example from another popular game: Everybody knows Ghandi's words are backed by nuclear weapons.

if u play a lot of endless space 1 . u can notice that you always look to get some of the tech in a certain order .... and it become repetitive. in endless legend u have disk so u choose what u need but the same problem persist you always keep searching the same tree in a certain order because of your style of play . i just throw some idea in the air ... what about when u unlock science level 1 it will unlock a random science level two and u have to deal with it . maybe a option to a style of play but it can be interesting that the tree will never be the same each game ... what do you think about this ?



si vous avez joué beaucoup a endless space 1 . vous remarquerez que on vise toujours a dévellopper certaine technologie clé en premier , se qui devient un ordre répétitif a chaque partie. dans endless legend les disque nous permettais de choisir les tech mais tout dépendant notre style de jeux on fini toujours par utiliser les meme tech aussi. jenvoie une idée en l'air ... que pensez vous que si vous débloquer une techno science niv. 1 ca débloquerais une science niv. 2 aléatoire. peut etre une option a rajouter dans le style de jeu mais ca pourrait etre intéressant de ne jamais avoir le meme arbre de technologie a chaque partie . quand pensez vous ?

Also as a side note, I hope each of the factions get more unique and specialized techs in their science trees as the current tech tree in ES1 feels pretty cookie cutter.

Perhaps we can find a middle ground here: Rather than randomizing the entire technology tree, all the "main" technologies are fixed, but each tree contains a few "branch" technologies that are randomized. These technologies shouldn't be too expensive to research and provide a useful bonus, but not any essential technologies (Hull Types, Wormhole and Warp Travel, Colonization unlocks, Diplomatic abilities, the basic levels of all module types, etc.) Furthermore, the randomization could pertain to timing rather than selection, such as having branch techs at tier 3, tier 5, and tier 7 in the technology tree, but the Empire-wide production bonus might show up at any of those tiers, so if you get the Dust bonus instead, you can either change your strategy to use more Dust, or forge onward in the technology tree and ignore the branch tech completely.



I would like to add that much like KnightOfPhoenix, I have fond memories of the Blind Research in Alpha Centauri. While it was not completely predictable and prevented perfect build orders, it did not feel arbitrary, either. Generally, the categories you selected would give you a fairly good impression of what types of benefits you could expect. Not to mention that simply picking one out of four categories rather than reading a long list of different technologies made the decision much quicker, and less daunting for a new player.



However, Knights point about specialization is the most important issue brought up in this thread in my opinion. In Endless Space, even if I did manage to specialize my Empire (Say, getting the Sheredyn Buyout bonus up to -90% and just spending Dust on everything), I would still have to research every last improvement and module I did not care about.

Endless Space 2 should enable and encourage trying out different play styles and specializations, rather than homogenizing all factions into "research everything."

A bit wary of the number of times I see the word "random" appear in this thread. I enjoy the fact we have different starts and playthroughs are never the same, but I don't think I'd want more RNG for breakfast, it's hard enough to get back in the game when constellation generation has left you stranded on the highway trucker stop of the universe.





However, I do agree that having several ways of playing a race instead of the golden tech path (looking at you, Casimir Effect!) is something a new iteration of ES could do with.

Wat about to split the thech tree up into more different trees. every tree will have several tier one techs several tier 2 techs and so on. and then one is only possible to research in one tree. with a high possibility to get a tech in the atctual tier but a small chance to get of a tier one higher. so if i am at tier 1 i could get a tier 2 tech with much luck. and then when i have every tier o1 tech then i could get a tier 3 tech.



with more trees its not that randomn what i get but i can never be 100 % certain that i get what i want right in the turn i would like to. so sometimes its bad. sometimes its good but on average i can make a king of planned progress

uqcu wrote:
Bolded sentence - the worst possible game design choice is to force players to a specific gameplay. I don't mind this to be an option. Its not a bad idea, but I wouldn't use it, because I love ES for builds/setups that I need to invent myself and not for randomness.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on that then. To me having randomness can save a game from being something I play a couple times before stopping and turn it into something I play for years and years. Having the most effective, pre-planned tech routes to research gets real old really fast for me. To each their own I suppose.

echo2361 wrote:
This could lead to very interesting scenarios where you might think you're making your way down a certain tech path to get a specific tech only to find you don't have it. This would force you, in a really fun way, to rethink everything and change up your game plan on the fly.

Bolded sentence - the worst possible game design choice is to force players to a specific gameplay. I don't mind this to be an option. Its not a bad idea, but I wouldn't use it, because I love ES for builds/setups that I need to invent myself and not for randomness.

cire2k wrote:
i just throw some idea in the air ... what about when u unlock science level 1 it will unlock a random science level two and u have to deal with it . maybe a option to a style of play but it can be interesting that the tree will never be the same each game ... what do you think about this ?

I'm in favor of something like this. One of my favorite things about Sword of the Stars is the semi-random tech tree. Each race has certain percentages to roll/get certain technologies in the game, but there were no guarantees. So everyone got all the basic techs that no empire could go without, like all the various ship hull sizes, FTL upgrades, etc. But some races had a 90% chance to get high end laser weapons while others only have a 50% chance. This could lead to very interesting scenarios where you might think you're making your way down a certain tech path to get a specific tech only to find you don't have it. This would force you, in a really fun way, to rethink everything and change up your game plan on the fly.

NihilAeternus wrote:
I would rather have reasons to try different play styles than be forced to.

This in a nutshell.



That being said, one thing I enjoyed very much in Alpha Centauri is that you could turn random researching on, and you can only pick a general field, but the specific techs you get are random. It was an interesting mechanic and it added a lot to the game. So I would not mind having the ability to have science be random.



But, at the end of the day, this can only be pertinent if each tech is interesting and more or less equally valuable than everything else.



What I think is more of a priority however, is to give players more freedom to specialize in technology. The truth is, in Endless Space, it was impossible to focus on one branch of the tech tree without investing in everything else. You need to invest in all 4 branches to be able to have a sustainable and competitive empire and military. This is especially the case if you want to build up your military (you need to unlock ships, unlock resources, unlock modules, increase fleet size..etc from other trees), but also for a scientific playthrough, as it is very difficult to get a science victory if you don't research the final tech in each tree.



Take Galactic Civilizations 2 for example (I have not played the third). Each playthrough could be very different, because you can specialize your empire to be radically different. You can take the Dominion of Korx for instance, and play as a financial powerhouse with 0 industry and buying everything out. Or you can play the Dominion of Korx as an industrial power that sells ships to other factions to keep its economy rolling (and the fact that they can profit from other people's wars makes it enticing). Or you can play in a standard balanced way. Or you could be militaristic.



A large reason why that was possible, other than much better diplomacy, is the fact that tech trees in that game were largely independent from each other. You didn't *need* to invest in all other trees if you want to be militaristic (you could buy or extort other races for tech, and take their industrial worlds for your use), and you didn't need to invest in much in order to get a science victory.



I suppose at heart of the problem is the fact that in Galactic Civ 2, very different play-styles are possible and rewarded, and the AI has different personalities and behavior that it also does the same. That dynamic does not exist in Endless Space, at least not nearly as much (don't get me wrong though, I love Endless Space just as much as Galactic Civ 2, and it beats it on many points).



So it goes back to Nihil's point. Endless Space 2 should give us the ability to specialize in tech AND make different play-styles both viable and interesting.

I would rather have reasons to try different play styles than be forced to.



Have random events/quests where the first person to achieve a feat gets a bonus to that play style. For example, the first person to construct a ship which can hold a certain number of fighter craft gets a trait which allows cheaper fighters, the first person to build a particular expensive building on all of their worlds with a minimum number gains an additional bonus to that building type which helps "tall" empires, or the first person to enslave a number of minor races receives a FIDS bonus for systems with a slave race in it.



With enough of these quests and a random selection of them for each game at different stages of the game people will likely be pulled to slightly different play styles. Similar to the legendary deeds of Endless Legend but should be randomly chosen for each match and would not be as significant.