Hi guys, I just want to submit an idea which recently came to my mind.



I’ve already explained it to some members of Amplitude at the latest B2G (hi SpaceTroll and Obyguane ) and I was told that the basic idea is interesting, but they wanted to see what the community think of it. So here I am, despite my special ability to make people turn blind after reading my English.



This idea is to add a separatist faction in Endless Space 2. I’ve seen it has not yet be considered by the devs after having read the GDD 5 (Politics and Senate), but it really seems important to me. I have noticed that a forumer (HappyHead, see comment #26) has already used the term separatists, but not in the way I see it.







So, how would this work ?



In my mind, it would be a complement for the approval « resource » . In a solar system, if the approval is below a certain threshold (about 40 to 50 percent only), these people will seek for independance and freedom from you. Because you’re a bad emperor.



For instance, in a Sophon empire, if you try to make them coexist with a huge majority of Cravers, they would tend to riot and to vote for the separatists. Especially since Sophons are seeking for peace and knowledge, and Cravers for war and destruction.



This would result in a rise of the votes for the separatist faction on this system, and we can imagine all those different independance parties gather in your Senate to gain political weight and credibility.







How to block or prevent separatists and separatism rise ?

Many means can block the growth of a separatist party, if this is what you want.



Firstly, through new technologies. Two types of technology would decrease the number of votes the separatists will get, obviously some of them will increase approval and the other ones will repress the separatist « plague » or give them the illusion to have some power. Like emergency technologies, not absolutely necessary (your empire would be delayed in vital technologies in early game for example) but you can research those when they are desperately needed.



In an authoritarian empire (I think of Cravers), they might be able to chose to block a political faction, including a separatist one, from having the right to sit in the Senate. This banishment however would increase the disapproval of all the population, I think it’s better to make this ban temporary (in the game mechanics I mean).

Paradoxically, the rise of the separatists will unlock their laws, which would consist to increase population happiness and approval, and so decrease the votes for this faction. So there will still be a way to control this rise.



You could also put a garrison in instable systems. I don’t really know if there will be ground forces, but this garrison can be composed of ships or fleets without any problems. The more powerfull is the garrison, the more intimidated the separatists are. Tough choice, will you prefer war over stability ?



Some empire's inhabitants (hi Horatios !) might just do not even consider separatism as an option (at least from their original faction, Horatios won’t declare independance from Horatios because it don’t make any sense).



Separatism can also be influenced by the distance where they stand compared to the capital (or the system where the Senate sit). A far-away-from-everything colony that you put down to slow another empire can become in late game a great issue. Another thing is the size of your empire, the bigger, the most unstable. See the « decentralization » point just below



Finally, all empires could accept to give more independance to a solar system. There would be an option, in the screen of the solar system looking for independance, to « decentralize ». Their votes will still count for your Senate, but they won’t vote anymore for the separatist faction. You can collect a part of their taxes (which you’ll be able to choose). These people will be happy all the time (85% of approval), and even more if your empire gets global bonuses ! Like luxury resources for instance. They will also get a huge bonus for basic FIDSI (from 10 to 15%), since they feel free and are more motivated to work hard.



-> BUT, each planet of the system will be developped as desired by their inhabitants (if citizens are more or less into science, industry, influence, food… depending on their racial affinities), and a second production line will appear for the solar system. In this second production line, 30% of the industry (I think it is a minimum) produced by the system will be at the disposal of the population ; they will build a garrison if war is upon your empire and if they feel threatened, Sophons will build labs if you don’t… The same will goes for science, and they will develop their own techs (which will be unlocked for you to) if they are not in your agenda (though they will appear as currently researched in the scientific menu in another color). And you’ll be able to choose which percentage of this production you allow them to use. It will still be possible to fully regain control of this system, but the solar system will lose all it’s bonuses (but not the achivements like fleet, buildings and techs). This is by far my favorite point, because in late game, when you spent one hour to micro-manage all your systems, your planets, your fleets etc before hiting the "End Turn" button, it could be great to « decentralize » or in a way to be obligated to do so. If the colony is independant for too long (popups should make sure the player noticed it), then it might will declare it’s independance from your empire (same independance as the one described one point below, « if separatists become too numerous within a solar system »).







Can I take advantage of this feature ?



Yes you can ! In the diplomacy menu, you can research and use a function that I arbitrarily call « feed the rebels ». Give them your dust and your influence, and they will grow stronger within other empires, even organizing terrorist attacks and suicide bombings (decreasing happiness and approval in the empire targeted). These signs would also be an indicator for this empire that another one is trying to destabilize them. Who ? They will know it by spying their neighbours. Who knows, maybe their closest ally is the one « feeding the rebels »…







What happens if separatists are too numerous within a solar system ?



This system declare its independance from you and riot. All its inhabitants earn a new status (the one of a minor faction, even if not composed by one), though they will function as a major faction (possibility to trade with them, to do research agreements, war and peace…).

So this solar system belongs to no one, and can be integrated again if any empire decide to invade it or have enough influence to spend in it (special discount if they were one of those « feeding the rebels » !).







And how about separatist heroes ?



YES ! That’s a good question. I think maybe some heroes that could be purchased (and not generated by the Academy) could have this trait. It would mean that they would bring disorder to the colony they’re attached to as governors, despite huge bonuses in FIDSI (compared to other heroes), sot he could only be place in safe places. And as admirals, they would go to battle with their own plans. It might not be the right term then, but I’ve no idea how to call this… Maybe « fool » ?



If you just keep the idea of a general that got a trait like « fool » which make him charge the ennemy with it’s own plan (so you can’t control his troops, the battle has to be done automatically and is impossible to do manually), that’d be fine. This particular point is something that I would like to see in Endless Legend too, having powerfull heroes without having fully control of their actions (it could be implemented with the Allayi).







One last thing that needs to be said, I believe taxes should be calculated on the basis of the approval rate. It makes perfect sense to me.



All of this is pretty dense, but I’m quite happy with the result That's a long post but I had to caught up 5 years of absence!

I tried to make things as clear as I could. Feel free to ask any questions, let me know any of your remarks, critics and of course if you support this idea ! I’m also interested to know what you would add or remove.

Even if the devs don’t keep it all, I really hope some of those ideas will make their way in their heads !

I hope you still have your eyes up



Thanks for reading !



Sire Triste

I do like the idea, but I feel like seperatists main motivation, approval and their neighbours would be odd. Like if a bunch of Sophons lived together with a bunch of cravers, they of course wouldn't like it, and probably blame it on the government, but it's not like they could do anything about that had they indepence especially given the cravers are actually the majority they'd if anything eat the sophons and delcare the system part of the next craver empire. Same with planets. Now of course people who gained independence could settle another planet, but they could already have migrated somewhere else before. Taxes on the other hand really make sense; people would get angry at the government if they felt overtaxed and would want to secede then, but they wouldn't really if they lived in the desert and the plants tried to eat them.

I also feel like terrorist attacks should have varied effects, sometimes they damage some ships and decrease approval, sometimes they should destroy a trade route improvement but increase approval and security and make the empire terrirst striked invade the empire next to the seperatis system.

I think one of the weaknesses of ES and EL was the lack of rebellion, which is something that to my knowledge most 4X games have. Low approval simply meant a FIDSI penalty and nothing else. Having the threat of rebellion would make rampant expansionism less viable. Unfortunately, while there will be voting, it doesn't seem like there will be management of conquered peoples. It doesn't seem like we have to worry about each race's approval, or the makeup of a planet's demographics and how it affects approval.



In any case, I approve of any inclusion of a rebellion mechanic. Even more so if the demographics of a planet has an impact on it.

The leader has to be called Count Doku.

Sinnaj63 wrote:
I do like the idea, but I feel like seperatists main motivation, approval and their neighbours would be odd. Like if a bunch of Sophons lived together with a bunch of cravers, they of course wouldn't like it, and probably blame it on the government, but it's not like they could do anything about that had they indepence especially given the cravers are actually the majority they'd if anything eat the sophons and delcare the system part of the next craver empire. Same with planets. Now of course people who gained independence could settle another planet, but they could already have migrated somewhere else before. Taxes on the other hand really make sense; people would get angry at the government if they felt overtaxed and would want to secede then, but they wouldn't really if they lived in the desert and the plants tried to eat them.

I also feel like terrorist attacks should have varied effects, sometimes they damage some ships and decrease approval, sometimes they should destroy a trade route improvement but increase approval and security and make the empire terrirst striked invade the empire next to the seperatis system.

The main idea is to give your people an ultimate way to reject/to challenge your choices, if you are trying things that look weird to your citizens. Then, as a Sophon empire, if you invade the totality of the Craver empire and choose to keep the Cravers alive, your Sophons citizens will vote separatist to told you how worried they are to see there are now 50% of Cravers and 50% of Sophons. Even if you were seeking for the war bonuses of the Cravers. And the Cravers will also vote separatist to rebuild their empire and regain their past glory, and because your Sophons are shy and Cravers ballsy.

The separatist faction has not really a goal to access to power, but to block one slot in the Senate of the player, and thus to make sure the player care about the happiness of his population.



Of course, the separatism won't be a problem for your plans on the long term, since I've enunciated many ways to counter it or to lower this disapproval rate, and we can imagine technologies to make people learn to live together (which should be called "utopia"). And I'm sure other ways can be find ! So the player won't be inevitably punished of his choices.



If people get their independance, or riot against you, it would be a really rare case. If they get it, I guess they'll be friends and at peace within the planet/solar system, because they were fighting together. Then, they decide what they do, and the most surprising their choices will be, the better.



I also primarily want to promote this "decentralisation" option which seems really important to me.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
I think one of the weaknesses of ES and EL was the lack of rebellion, which is something that to my knowledge most 4X games have. Low approval simply meant a FIDSI penalty and nothing else. Having the threat of rebellion would make rampant expansionism less viable. Unfortunately, while there will be voting, it doesn't seem like there will be management of conquered peoples. It doesn't seem like we have to worry about each race's approval, or the makeup of a planet's demographics and how it affects approval.



In any case, I approve of any inclusion of a rebellion mechanic. Even more so if the demographics of a planet has an impact on it.

Yes, I feel the same way you do about 4X games, even if you express it way better than I do ^^

Maybe it's not to late to change a bit what has been previously planned by the devs...?



Thanks anyway, I appreciate the support !

Nasarog wrote:
The leader has to be called Count Doku.

Good one hahaha !







I also would like to add that some of the ideas developped in my first post can easily be implemented in the game, without even considering adding a separatist party : foolish heroes, feed the rebels, decentralisation, garrisons to give approval bonuses...

And these options are still interesting



Sire Triste

No more feedback?



I feel quite lonely here

SireTriste wrote:
No more feedback?



I feel quite lonely here

oh you are definitely not alone



I really like your system, but I have to admit I am always scared with rebellions in strategy game, as it can spun out of control easily.





Cheers



ST

SpaceTroll wrote:
oh you are definitely not alone



I really like your system, but I have to admit I am always scared with rebellions in strategy game, as it can spun out of control easily.





Cheers



ST

Have you ever played EU4? They have a crisis and rebellion system that gave the player a chance to avoid.

Ashbery76 wrote:
Have you ever played EU4? They have a crisis and rebellion system that gave the player a chance to avoid.

Or Victoria 2, which has a crisis system not easy to avoid and regualarly leads to world wars that would probably also fit into ES2 given how there'll be different populations but rebellions that can be easily defeated if you're not AI and your army is not away fighting a war.

Let them elect a new ruler and the ruler is the same person like before:-). Maybe an End game score malus like: Total Revolutions per Game... . Maybe it would be normal for rebellions that they starts with much lesser technologies, i think it should be possible to investigate who has plot the revolution from outside to give him a diplomacy malus. But, i think the package shouldn´t get to complicated.

Nether the less: your enemy could sell high technology spy Items on the black market to destabilize your nation. No my true opinion is that it shouldn´t get to crude.

SpaceTroll wrote:
I really like your system, but I have to admit I am always scared with rebellions in strategy game, as it can spun out of control easily.

That's part of the fun But I my vision, the player is warned of the rise of separatism and is given tools to quickly react to this situation. So it won't totaly spun out of control, and separatism is calculated separately for each solar system ; this way a player can't be defeated by it's rebels.



I understand your hesitation, but it looks really essential to me on this game focusing on the empire's populations. But I don't forget it remains your game, and I hope you won't forget to pick the other ideas linked to this post.



Still, I have worked a bit to try to adapt my system to make sure you like it, and that led to another idea (I know, I just can't stop, sorry ) : a faction based on high politic instability to compensate high research or military power. This could perfectly fit any of your games! And separatism comes back



Does it looks better now?



Anyway I would be curious to see how the Loremeister would deal with such a faction! With or without separatism

Ashbery76 wrote:
Have you ever played EU4? They have a crisis and rebellion system that gave the player a chance to avoid.

Sinnaj63 wrote:
Or Victoria 2, which has a crisis system not easy to avoid and regualarly leads to world wars that would probably also fit into ES2 given how there'll be different populations but rebellions that can be easily defeated if you're not AI and your army is not away fighting a war.

I'm sorry guys, but I don't play these 2 games, so I can't really take your points nor reply to you



But I have to admit the idea of world war is really sexy! I imagine a cooperative quest which, if not fulfilled, put all empires at war with each others. Oh god, that's exciting!

ImPulsar wrote:
Let them elect a new ruler and the ruler is the same person like before:-). Maybe an End game score malus like: Total Revolutions per Game... . Maybe it would be normal for rebellions that they starts with much lesser technologies, i think it should be possible to investigate who has plot the revolution from outside to give him a diplomacy malus. But, i think the package shouldn´t get to complicated.

Nether the less: your enemy could sell high technology spy Items on the black market to destabilize your nation. No my true opinion is that it shouldn´t get to crude.

I don't think it's a good idea to keep this side of the game on a score basis, because at the end of a game, there's only a winner, and the score screen is here just for fun. But I agree on your second point, I would really like to have more interactions between empires, and not only the "official" ones 3

I am really liking this. I am curious to see where this ends up.

Nasarog wrote:
I am really liking this. I am curious to see where this ends up.

Thanks for the support! I am really curious to see that too