Falkner wrote:
The thing is that Harmony didn't have ANYTHING new to do instead of hero management. The removal of approval management was compensated by the growth/science balancing act, so overall this was a neutral change that adds more variety to the game. But the removal of heroes was a straight up amputation, without even a prosthetic to make up for the loss of this huge gameplay element.

harmony has lots of overpowered technolgies. Overpowered, that is, until you consider they had no dust and no heroes. They also have no maintainance and an incentive to put fleets around all their system, so instead of heroes, they have all the improvments and metric craptons of ships.

To expand somewhat on the Amoeba affinity in particular as discussed here, your suggestions for exploration will overlap somewhat with the Sophon affinity.

Frogsquadron wrote:
ES2 will strike a middle ground between EL and ES in terms of affinities and race asymmetry.

Works for me! So long as I get variety. =)

ES2 will strike a middle ground between EL and ES in terms of affinities and race asymmetry.

If you compare ES and EL there was a big step forward. In ES all races "felt" more or less the same. Some Affinitys more then others. Harmony was different, Automatons too imho.



The Idea of a faction which is completely reliant on Dust and has to use a buyout strategy is actually something good and unique. And the idea was better implemented in EL.



(Broken Lords, The Forgotten)



In ES it was very simplified and on top of it broken.



for me thats an "unfun" trait/Affinity.

To play and to play against.





PS: Amoeba would have been more "fun" and unique if the trade system would not have been so underpowered.

I'm not at all saying that the Sheredyn affinity is bad. The 33% discount on buyouts was a massive boon. But I don't think this thread is concerned with balance issues, but rather with affinities that don't have a noticeable effect on how players approach the game. It's more about the variety of factions than their balance.

Balance of the Sheredyn affinity aside, it just wasn't a terribly pro-active affinity for the player. At least for me, buying out a little more often than with other factions did not feels like a big shift in gameplay.

I liked the idea of the Harmony of not being able using Heroes because its different and was more fitting to my playstyle. I hope they didnt become a MUST for every player or strategy in ES 2.









And about the Sheredyn.The fact that you cant retreat from them is only the cream topping.



I talked alot about them and other Affinitys in the past and could write novels about the differences between top;mid and low tier affinitys and their imbalance in Endless Space.



There were alot of improvemts of course [We"savedtheSowers"remember?]

and if I look at other games(*cough* GalCiv) ES balancing is actually pretty good.



ES 2 can expect a much larger and much more active multiplayer community then ES ever had.

Thats one reason more why I hope that all in all the Devs will have more time to spend looking at balance issues.



As a good balancing offers more viable and unique playstyles and trait variations.

Returning to this thread, I have to agree that the Sheredyn affinity was not terribly engaging, either. It did not involve any choice on the player's part, and wasn't even justified in lore in any way.



In my opinion, an affinity should either present the player with new options for playing the game (Pilgrims' Fleet Errant, Horatio's Cloning, Sowers' tolerant trait) or present engaging problem/opportunity pairs (Cravers' strip mining, Harmony's dust rejection) that change how you approach the game.

I like that suggestion for the Amoeba affinity, it's pretty neat. Not sure how it would work given our new exploration mechanics, but it's worth noting down.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
I agree that it was immensely helpful for new players, and I liked using it myself even when I was more experienced. But there may be ways to adapt it that helps new players without completely removing exploration. Start with your whole constellation discovered, but not the rest of the galaxy. Always uncover all systems adjacent by string as well as the one you just entered. Perhaps throw in better results from exploration events, too.

Actually that was exactly what I was thinking.

Yes, no incentive NOT to run full-size fleets in every system was a hilariously fun concept to abuse. Sure, another races' force might do better because of a hero, but when you can swarm them with five fleets of Dreadnaughts, it doesn't matter. lol

rockmassif wrote:
Playing Harmony wasn't boring at all. It actually makes you look at the game from a different perspective because usually many other factions rely on heroes/dust or greatly benefits from them. I'm not gonna lie, Harmony alone added so many game hours to my Steam account simply because it was much different than other factions therefore provided a very unique experience for me and made me wanna start over many times. In short, Harmony alone added really nice replay value to Endless Space.



Now, I kinda agree with what you said about Amoeba, but I also think that it actually makes easier for new players to get a hold of the game. I'm not saying that it should be removed completely but I would like to have a slight change on that simply because eXploration is a really fun part of this game and Amoeba trait basically removes that fun.

I agree that it was immensely helpful for new players, and I liked using it myself even when I was more experienced. But there may be ways to adapt it that helps new players without completely removing exploration. Start with your whole constellation discovered, but not the rest of the galaxy. Always uncover all systems adjacent by string as well as the one you just entered. Perhaps throw in better results from exploration events, too.

What's not fun for one person, could be incredibly fun for another.

Playing Harmony wasn't boring at all. It actually makes you look at the game from a different perspective because usually many other factions rely on heroes/dust or greatly benefits from them. I'm not gonna lie, Harmony alone added so many game hours to my Steam account simply because it was much different than other factions therefore provided a very unique experience for me and made me wanna start over many times. In short, Harmony alone added really nice replay value to Endless Space.



Now, I kinda agree with what you said about Amoeba, but I also think that it actually makes easier for new players to get a hold of the game. I'm not saying that it should be removed completely but I would like to have a slight change on that simply because eXploration is a really fun part of this game and Amoeba trait basically removes that fun.

The faction trait I found not fun was the Sheredyn preventing all retreat, tbh. Not because I am against the concept, but because it felt cheap having it from the get go with no explanation as to why you have it. It would have been more fun to have it be a unique module, as opposed to have even scouts have it.

The Amoebas.It is not very fun having the whole map shown from the start.A big part of these games is exploration.



The Harmony.What was interesting about not having heroes.It just made playing them less enjoyable.

Romeo wrote:
Sloppy Sawbones was THE BEST. lol



I know Heroes are powerful, that's why it was fun to have them ripped from you. It's like a level of Bloons that takes away your favourite towers, or a sim-Racer that forces you to run a stock vehicle. Plans that you would've used (Taxation, Heroes, Speed production) are suddenly yanked from you, and you have to rethink how to play. That's why they were unique, and fun, to use.

The thing is that Harmony didn't have ANYTHING new to do instead of hero management. The removal of approval management was compensated by the growth/science balancing act, so overall this was a neutral change that adds more variety to the game. But the removal of heroes was a straight up amputation, without even a prosthetic to make up for the loss of this huge gameplay element.



Here's an idea for ES2: Harmony's big lore deal was that the Dust infection made them into individuals and they hated this. How about having it reflected in the gameplay? Harmony would also use heroes but their heroes would have a chance of rebelling/disobeying/reasserting their individuality if their Dust exposure becomes too high.

- Harmony governors would get higher/lesser exposure to Dust in relations with the Dust production of the planet. So putting your hero on an Arid planet would be a risky, calculated move.

- Harmony fleet leaders would have a chance of going rogue and using their own tactics

The point of this is to have some ways for the player to interact, not simply cut off a huge part of the gameplay.

Sloppy Sawbones can hit you really hard if you're losing though. If your fleet gets destroyed and your hero is injured, thats all your dust gone, if your hero-administered borderworld gets invaded, that's all your dust gone again, if your new fleet also gets destroyed, that's your hero gone until you can afford to pay 2K Dust.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
Yes, there will be bonuses unlocked by enacting laws in your government, but in my opinion that does not exclude the possibility for a Custom Trait system as we have seen it in Endless Space 1. In fact, given how popular the system was in Endless Space and Endless Legend, I think it would be a mistake to not include a similar option. They just need to make sure not to leave so many factions stuck with traits completely useless to them, and make all traits actually matter (Never met a player who care about Sloppy Sawbones, for example).

Sloppy Sawbones was THE BEST. lol

Falkner wrote:
I respectfully disagree. Not being able to use heroes was too much. Heroes add personality, they're powerful in both offence and administration and are a huge part of the gameplay. I most sincerely hope that if the Harmony is back in ES2 then it will have heroes.

I know Heroes are powerful, that's why it was fun to have them ripped from you. It's like a level of Bloons that takes away your favourite towers, or a sim-Racer that forces you to run a stock vehicle. Plans that you would've used (Taxation, Heroes, Speed production) are suddenly yanked from you, and you have to rethink how to play. That's why they were unique, and fun, to use.

ImPulsar wrote:
Why couldn´t sell the harmony the dust procduction ability of Planets to other Factions.

They despised it, they truly considered it to be everything that was wrong with the Universe. They wouldn't want anyone else using it any more than they did. Chances are, they destroyed it whenever they had the chance.

Why couldn´t sell the harmony the dust procduction ability of Planets to other Factions.

Frogsquadron wrote:


The Harmony were a challenge in that they forced you to look at the way you play and flip it on its head, with their absence of Dust but also upkeep and everything. In the end game having no Heroes usually meant military victories were out of their grasp, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they had no merit or interest.

I respectfully disagree. Not being able to use heroes was too much. Heroes add personality, they're powerful in both offence and administration and are a huge part of the gameplay. I most sincerely hope that if the Harmony is back in ES2 then it will have heroes.

Yes, there will be bonuses unlocked by enacting laws in your government, but in my opinion that does not exclude the possibility for a Custom Trait system as we have seen it in Endless Space 1. In fact, given how popular the system was in Endless Space and Endless Legend, I think it would be a mistake to not include a similar option. They just need to make sure not to leave so many factions stuck with traits completely useless to them, and make all traits actually matter (Never met a player who care about Sloppy Sawbones, for example).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you guys are talking about picking certain traits, but I thought everyone choose or make a basic outline of your race like faction/politics/behavior. And stuff like your custom traits will come from laws you enact? If this is the case then amoeba faction trait will be useful trait that will help them not need to explore as rigoursly compared to other factions. Additionally it would be weird to enact a law that have you vision of the map, it doesn't make sense.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
All the more reason to make the uncovered map a Custom Trait, so you can stick it on your favorite faction.



The uncovered map did fit their background, but it does take away a large chunk of exploration gameplay, with nothing to replace it. Given that they're said to be peace-loving, an affinity that would have interacted with diplomacy might have been interesting (similar to the Drakken in EL, but with less powerful effects.)

That would be potentially really OP though; imagine Pilgrim faction trait and uncovered map combined with some of the trade traits.

Sinnaj63 wrote:
I don't know, as someone shitty at scouting, seeing everything from turn 1 sounds really exciting for me.

All the more reason to make the uncovered map a Custom Trait, so you can stick it on your favorite faction.



The uncovered map did fit their background, but it does take away a large chunk of exploration gameplay, with nothing to replace it. Given that they're said to be peace-loving, an affinity that would have interacted with diplomacy might have been interesting (similar to the Drakken in EL, but with less powerful effects.)

Ashbery76 wrote:
The Amoebas.It is not very fun having the whole map shown from the start.A big part of these games is exploration.



The Harmony.What was interesting about not having heroes.It just made playing them less enjoyable.

Like Cat-O-Nine-Tales, I found the Harmony intensely interesting to play as, because they were so different from the others. There might have been some balance concerns with some affinities (Hissho had a stupendously powerful affinity, and Cravers had a very weak one in larger maps), but I don't think there were any affinities I wanted to see completely removed.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
I don't agree that the Harmony affinity was boring. While it took away the hero management, approval, and dust, I found that balancing population growth versus scientific growth was quite difficult, the penalties on dust-rich systems made you completely rethink your colonization strategy, and the inability to refit ships could put you in troublesome spots in war.



I do, however, agree that the Amoeba affinity is not terribly exciting. Useful, yes. But not exciting enough to be an Affinity. I would like to see them with a different, more involved affinity, that really affects gameplay, while the uncovered star map becomes a custom trait they start with.

I don't know, as someone shitty at scouting, seeing everything from turn 1 sounds really exciting for me.

I don't agree that the Harmony affinity was boring. While it took away the hero management, approval, and dust, I found that balancing population growth versus scientific growth was quite difficult, the penalties on dust-rich systems made you completely rethink your colonization strategy, and the inability to refit ships could put you in troublesome spots in war.



I do, however, agree that the Amoeba affinity is not terribly exciting. Useful, yes. But not exciting enough to be an Affinity. I would like to see them with a different, more involved affinity, that really affects gameplay, while the uncovered star map becomes a custom trait they start with.

As someone who's taught the game to many, many new players a few years back, I found the Amoeba affinity to be exceedingly better with newbies. They can assess on their own what systems are good around them, and see that there are interesting systems outside their constellation. If you take Amoeba as well you can guide them in their expansion too.



That alone was enough to make them worthwhile for me (I didn't play much of a pacifist gameplay, ever, so the rest of their bonuses didn't speak to me much).



The Harmony were a challenge in that they forced you to look at the way you play and flip it on its head, with their absence of Dust but also upkeep and everything. In the end game having no Heroes usually meant military victories were out of their grasp, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they had no merit or interest.

I liked both races.



The Amoeba trait helps them get a good start, but that's what they need to work with. Their advantage is mostly lost after 20 turns. All it saves them after that is exploring what's behind wormholes.



I like the Harmony. They play differently, and have a fairly unique background, which adds some variety to the game. If you don't like them, why do you play them?