I liked ES1, and really enjoyed EL. The problem was that I had to fix the horrific issue of snowballing in both games in order to do so. Rather than a (purely mathmatically speaking) linear system like most 4x games, both are highly exponential, both in the way that bonus are calculated and the way that bonuses are delivered in the game. Combined, they make the games extremely snowbally. In EL you go from 20 industry to 20000 industry in a city, if you've decided to hold off winning for that long. For me, it just absolutely destroyed any semblance of pacing in the game. A snowball is nice to finish off your last foes (an actual benefit in a military-centric game like ES1 and EL were), but EL turned most of the game into that "finish them off" phase. Around 10% of the way in, and you've set up your unassailable victory and the only thing left to do is wrap things up. And since I'm one of the wierdos that plays at the slowest possible speed (then makes a much slower one) the snowballing in vanilla turns the game into a chore. 

So, with all the shiny new toys that the game is going to get, is it going to have real pacing from start to finish this time around? Or will I have to change all the bonus values in the game again?

If you say you fixed the issue of Snowblaaing, would you care to share how? It might be useful information for the devs or a modder.

A lot of systems are going to be working pretty differently from ES1 and EL, I can only advise you take a look at the Game Design Documents we have published (in particular Diplomacy):

https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/forum/65-general/thread/19769-game-design-documents-and-where-to-find-them

exelsisxax wrote:

I liked ES1, and really enjoyed EL. The problem was that I had to fix the horrific issue of snowballing in both games in order to do so. Rather than a (purely mathmatically speaking) linear system like most 4x games, both are highly exponential, both in the way that bonus are calculated and the way that bonuses are delivered in the game. Combined, they make the games extremely snowbally. In EL you go from 20 industry to 20000 industry in a city, if you've decided to hold off winning for that long. For me, it just absolutely destroyed any semblance of pacing in the game. A snowball is nice to finish off your last foes (an actual benefit in a military-centric game like ES1 and EL were), but EL turned most of the game into that "finish them off" phase. Around 10% of the way in, and you've set up your unassailable victory and the only thing left to do is wrap things up. And since I'm one of the wierdos that plays at the slowest possible speed (then makes a much slower one) the snowballing in vanilla turns the game into a chore. 

So, with all the shiny new toys that the game is going to get, is it going to have real pacing from start to finish this time around? Or will I have to change all the bonus values in the game again?

According to the GDD the FIDSI bonuses are going to be turned over to mostly flat bonuses instead of a large number of percentage bonuses.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:

If you say you fixed the issue of Snowblaaing, would you care to share how? It might be useful information for the devs or a modder.

BlackBird1696 wrote:

exelsisxax wrote:

I liked ES1, and really enjoyed EL. The problem was that I had to fix the horrific issue of snowballing in both games in order to do so. Rather than a (purely mathmatically speaking) linear system like most 4x games, both are highly exponential, both in the way that bonus are calculated and the way that bonuses are delivered in the game. Combined, they make the games extremely snowbally. In EL you go from 20 industry to 20000 industry in a city, if you've decided to hold off winning for that long. For me, it just absolutely destroyed any semblance of pacing in the game. A snowball is nice to finish off your last foes (an actual benefit in a military-centric game like ES1 and EL were), but EL turned most of the game into that "finish them off" phase. Around 10% of the way in, and you've set up your unassailable victory and the only thing left to do is wrap things up. And since I'm one of the wierdos that plays at the slowest possible speed (then makes a much slower one) the snowballing in vanilla turns the game into a chore. 

So, with all the shiny new toys that the game is going to get, is it going to have real pacing from start to finish this time around? Or will I have to change all the bonus values in the game again?

According to the GDD the FIDSI bonuses are going to be turned over to mostly flat bonuses instead of a large number of percentage bonuses.

That's how I fixed the scaling myself. 

Which GDD was that in? I can't remember that. 

That's how I fixed the scaling myself. 

Which GDD was that in? I can't remember that. 

It should be somewhere in GDD 7.

BlackBird1696 wrote:

That's how I fixed the scaling myself. 

Which GDD was that in? I can't remember that. 

It should be somewhere in GDD 7.

Found it, and it's exactly the way to go. The issue is known and plans to avoid it.

Hi,

Although I agree with your idea in general way, and don't want this exponential growth with increasing % that adds with each tier building. I found that increasing, as an example, +1 industry with tier I factory and another +1/+2 with tier II may be too much plain and a bit lore-breaking.

As I want Amplitude take note of your suggestion, I also want them to put it in some original way, more than in only flat increasing every time you build an improvement.

Make things like: 

- Tier I improvement: +5 ind per colonized planet, tier II +1 ind per pop.

- Tier I improvement: +1 dust per exploded resource on system, tier II + 10 dust per trade route through this system.

There are only examples that without seeing all the game may be inappropriate, but I prefer things like that than the flay +1 every time I build a specific resource related building. It allows to avoid snowballing, while at the same time maintains lore and make every improvement feel different.

Understand that probably at this stage Amplitude has decided and made most of the things. We'll see soon, but hope they made something this way, or at least take in consideration making something different from flat bonuses or stacking percentages (first for lore, second for exponential grow).

I definitely agree that the system improvements shouldn'T jsut be flat  bonuses, but tied to features of the system and how you are exploiting it. They should go hand in hand with other choices you make, rather than just escalating numbers.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:

I definitely agree that the system improvements shouldn'T jsut be flat  bonuses, but tied to features of the system and how you are exploiting it. They should go hand in hand with other choices you make, rather than just escalating numbers.

I'm not sure what you mean saying: "They should go hand in hand with other choices you make, rather than just escalating numbers." As I think can it be linked, say to political ideologies, or active wars?

If not this way, can you put some examples?

I suspect that I'll agree with you, but will prefer some concrete case than the general picture.

As an example, in the GDD on economy, the devs mentioned a leveling system for colonies, which is an active way to develop your colony. It could also tie into what kind of laws you have passed. Then there is the question of whether or not you are exploiting/harvesting a resource. And they could have improvements that work better when going tall or when going wide, similar to some of the Automaton improvements in ES1.

And of course, if Terraforming is in the game (which I suspect it will be), then even something as simple as a bonus to a specific planet type leads to the question of whether to terraform to that type, or another type offering FIDSI you may need in that system.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:

As an example, in the GDD on economy, the devs mentioned a leveling system for colonies, which is an active way to develop your colony. It could also tie into what kind of laws you have passed. Then there is the question of whether or not you are exploiting/harvesting a resource. And they could have improvements that work better when going tall or when going wide, similar to some of the Automaton improvements in ES1.

And of course, if Terraforming is in the game (which I suspect it will be), then even something as simple as a bonus to a specific planet type leads to the question of whether to terraform to that type, or another type offering FIDSI you may need in that system.

 Agree. Thanks.