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Are Vodyani playable ?

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8 years ago
Oct 7, 2016, 11:41:40 AM

I have been runing 2 games with Sophon and Lumeris with an easy score victory with each (even easier with Lumeris tho) but Vodyani seems impossible to play to me. Even while being over agressive I couldn't develop myself fast enough. Essence is slow AF to gather, not to mention that you absolutely need a target system. Industry is weak, so dust generation is. I don't really understand where the power of this faction lies.

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8 years ago
Oct 7, 2016, 12:04:47 PM

Don't know. I've only played Lumeris and Cravers so far. I love how fun they are to play in ES2, whipping slaves and working them to death.

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8 years ago
Oct 7, 2016, 12:06:43 PM

Ye I found the same thing. harvesting essence was easy once I had a fleet of 4 dedicated ships over an enemy planet (I was getting 138 per turn) but up to that point I only had 3 pop and one of the other factions was nearing score victory on turn 50 (this may be because I ended up confusing myself and not building any food at all). 


Also the fact enemies can jump to a system and attack your Ark and you cant do anything to stop it was really annoying. I was under constant attack from another Vodyani group aswell as from a minor faction that declared war on me 20 turns in. Because my fleet cap was only 4 and an Ark takes up 8 I couldn't add any extra ships to defend it and enemies could ignore all other fleets in the system and attack it straight away.


One cool thing though was I found the harmony in a quest line :D cant wait till they get their own models because atm they borrow them from other minor factions.

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8 years ago
Oct 7, 2016, 11:04:41 PM

I think they will fare much better in the full game, as once you get a few defended extractor ships out to colonies by turn 80-90 you can get enough essence to become a powerhouse. In early access, it isn't soon enough to make much of a difference due to being behind on pop, colonies and military.

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8 years ago
Oct 7, 2016, 11:07:11 PM

The Vodyani require a very different playstyle (as races in Endless Space tend to), there's this thread (not by me) which explains how the Vodyani are actually pretty OP: https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/forum/66-game-design/thread/20795-balancing-the-vodyani


I haven't played them myself, but every game I've played so far has ended up with the Vodyani being ridiculously powerful and extremely aggressive, so it does seem they're pretty strong right now.

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8 years ago
Oct 7, 2016, 11:26:46 PM

They seem like they could be very powerful. but every game i've played so far i've had a fleet sneak into my systems and ground assault it with ease smoking the arcs in 1 turn each, they have very bad ground defense it seems and the arc doesn't defend itself if attached.


Could be that i'm nut understanding ground combat fully, or that's just their intended weakness. But i get steamrolled. 

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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 12:59:55 AM
Fenrakk101 wrote:

The Vodyani require a very different playstyle (as races in Endless Space tend to), there's this thread (not by me) which explains how the Vodyani are actually pretty OP: https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/forum/66-game-design/thread/20795-balancing-the-vodyani


I haven't played them myself, but every game I've played so far has ended up with the Vodyani being ridiculously powerful and extremely aggressive, so it does seem they're pretty strong right now.

It´s actually by me, glad that someone noticed it :-)


They are by far the most powerful faction and more than OP. It´s the only faction you can win on a tiny Endless Difficulty ( Tiny because that makes it the hardest against the AI - you have to time to prepare and defend up somewhere in a corner and play the long game ... So you see what works and what does not - I´m pretty sure that the other factions could somewhat survive if you were far enough away from your Endless AI opponents )


dannyslag wrote:

They seem like they could be very powerful. but every game i've played so far i've had a fleet sneak into my systems and ground assault it with ease smoking the arcs in 1 turn each, they have very bad ground defense it seems and the arc doesn't defend itself if attached.


Could be that i'm nut understanding ground combat fully, or that's just their intended weakness. But i get steamrolled. 

I´m not sure if it is an intended weakness or simply not fleshed out due to being Early Access - I have a split opinion on whether or not being able to Ground Assault an Ark is a good idea. Arks have about half the manpower (110) as that of a normal planet (200) when starting the game. So they are very weak and prone to early attacks. You will need to have your Arks guarded. This can usually be achieved by figuring out where in the galaxy you are, killing the neighbor in your backyard first and then expanding forward - so you always see incoming enemies and have time to act accordingly.



So yeah to answer the question ... they are very much playable, but have a very different playstyle. If you think about it though, you would not let an enemy fleet just slip past your front defenses and attack your homeworld systems. At the end of the day 110 is only 90 manpower less than 200 - a decently sized Cravers fleet will capture a 200 system as well as a 110 one.

Updated 8 years ago.
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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 1:43:34 AM

The Vodyani were my most powerful playthrough, but I've never seen the AI be able to use them at all.

 

Their strengths : 

Arks are actually strong economic bases. They have support modules that increases system FIDSI - make sure to retrofit your starting ark to take advantage of this.

Colonize multiple planets at once : a 3 pop ark can put 3 pops on each of 4 inhabited planets, for 12 effective pops. This means their growth is about even if you have a 2 planet system.

Currently, AI and neutrals do not really react to you stealing essence from them.


Weaknesses:

Very dependent on map. If you are nearby a neutral, you can quickly grow early. If you aren't, not much you can do. As the AI gets more competent, I could see it becoming very hard to grow.

Once you hit mid game, growth from harvesting becomes too slow. You can grow your existing arcs with food, but creating new arks is a nightmare.

Updated 8 years ago.
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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 1:59:31 AM

all I found was that everyone declared war on me very quickly into the game and there wasn't much I could do to defend my ark. maybe its just I'm not aggressive enough a player or something. tried sophons immediately after and had 17 pop 30 turns in and owned 2 systems and was about to assimilate a minor faction. 


I think the reason I was having problems was not understanding how they worked, a terrible spawn (almost all planets were ash within local systems and all systems on my right were aggressive minor factions/pirates and 2 systems to my left was the vodyani that were trying to kill me) and also the lack of migrants. not saying they should get migrants that'd ruin their entire thing it was just a tad annoying that in my sophon run I was getting pop every 2 turns or so because of migration and food where as the vodyani the only place I could get pop was by leeching off of the minor factions and trying to support enough ships to do that without their ships killing me and fight the vodyani.

Updated 8 years ago.
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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 8:01:29 AM

I just ended a Vodyani game, with a defeat, but I was second on score, and I found them relatively strong. It took a little getting used to (first test game was a bust), but once I started aggressively going for essence almost from the word go, I could get a new ark out by turn 15-22 on normal speed (depending on closeness of an enemy civ), and with that ark everything was a lot better (if you need to crush someone, you have a truly powerful cap ship to do it, along with whatever fleet you have, if not, you have a way to bulk up for later fleet building, etc...). For reference, it was a 4-player game, one of each race, and I was at war against Cravers starting around turn 32, and the other two became constant combatants (when they weren't screwing with me with truces) around turn 75 (Lumeris first, then Sophons whenever Lumeris tied me up with a truce). My military might was truly massive, and I could pump out full 9+ ship fleets in 3-5 turns once I was in era 2, despite having fewer colonies than any opponent, except my early dominated Cravers.


There are a few issues I had with them, some of which have been mentioned. 


The most glaring is the ground assaults. It seems nonsensical that they can be ground assaulted without a fleet engagement first, since even if I were to assume they are completely stationary in orbit like a geosynchronous space station, they should still have the ability to fire at oncoming attackers. Something needs to reflect this, whether it's a power/feature that dramatically cuts down on attacking manpower automatically, an automatic fleet battle against the ark before the ground invasion can go off, or something. I understand that being ground assaulted more easily makes them more like planets (despite lower manpower base), but it also makes no sense and was really glaring especially when I found out arks die after ground assault rather than doing a forced retreat (which I would argue is another, but inferior, alternative way to somewhat mitigate this thing). Hopefully this is an EA thing.


Second, with the turn limit essence generation definitely has different peaks than it will in a more full game, at least it feels that way, with 4-6 arks seeming to be the best you can hope for without making combat fleets more expensive (and weaker) by adding harvesting tools, or having to invest in the long-to-build, poor at defending themselves, Leechers. It's a bit tough from this skewed feel to try and determine how well they'll escalate into lategame, but right now I'm feeling they'll get reasonably better the longer it goes on, able to win militarily, or combining military and other conditions (which is technically what I tried to do keeping opponent scores down by wiping planets off the map, since I didn't have time to wipe them out). As a side note, I'm curious if essence will have any use besides arks and population. 


Third, upgrading arks feels strange at the moment, and I'm curious if it is planned to be tweaked. On the one hand, it's cool to balance moving older arks up for their pre-existing infrastructure, versus using new arks that are made to schematics that are greatly superior, but it feels forced heavily in the current build to do the latter for safety without a fleet handy, since producing dust has been tough for me until Era 2 hits, with its research. In fact I couldn't upgrade arks ever in one game because I had to have too many fleets to insure I was getting essence and wiping out the quick-breeding Lumeris colonies near me (and their fleets) just to survive. The dust price is pretty crazy high for even simple upgrades of the basic weapons, especially since in many cases those upgraded arks are going to be a) unused as weapons since they're already upgraded and are more valuable as colonies b) will require defensive fleets anyway due to the way the ground assaults of arks are currently managed.


Fourth, even pushing essence production as high as I can early-mid game (without crippling warship production for protection, and development production for infrastructure), Lumeris and Sophons can both out-colonize me by leaps and bounds (anywhere from 3:1 to 5:1 typically), and I was wondering how correct that was, since it was an obvious impact on score (especially since score seems heavily biased towards population, and colonies). 



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