Romeo wrote:

The first game's best single gameplay element was that tech tree. It was beautiful. Instead, what was inexplicably forced in to its place was the system from Endless Legend, which doesn't fit thematically, and was far less permissive of different choices (There was a clearcut path to go through each era). To be honest, I'm more content with the proposed change (Pie slices), but still think the optimal solution was to continue the system that already worked in the previous Endless Space.

Hmmm...yeah I can't say that I ever found the first game's tech tree to be problematic. I think I wished for more unique techs but never really a change of format for it.

I do like EL's tech tree...but definitely for EL more than ES.

Slashman wrote:

Romeo wrote:

Go outside of space and your options open up considerably. Age of Wonders III has fantastic combat, for example.

I own AOW 3 and all the expansions. It is an awesome game. It's turn based combat though. I prefer a RT system in space. 

Also, this was kind of my first point. I do want to play space games. I just would like to see some more developers not skimp on the exterminate part of the 4x experience and deliver something equally entertaining on both the empire and combat side.

Ah, good. Because I cannot sing that game's praises enough.

Which is totally a fair opinion. The tech system really puts me off (Though I appreciate most other elements) and that almost made me holdout.

I think they are changing the tech system from what I read, to be more like the first game. What annoys you about what they currently do have? I'm obviously not in EA so I can't comment much here.

The other two replies cover it, but just so you know for my reasoning:

The first game's best single gameplay element was that tech tree. It was beautiful. Instead, what was inexplicably forced in to its place was the system from Endless Legend, which doesn't fit thematically, and was far less permissive of different choices (There was a clearcut path to go through each era). To be honest, I'm more content with the proposed change (Pie slices), but still think the optimal solution was to continue the system that already worked in the previous Endless Space.

Slashman wrote:

I think they are changing the tech system from what I read, to be more like the first game. What annoys you about what they currently do have? I'm obviously not in EA so I can't comment much here.

Different person, but the current tech system has numerous problems. Perhaps one of the most important from the POV of many players (even if it isn't necessarily the most damaging aspect of it) is that it is too similar to EL and retains very little/almost nothing of ES1; this has drawn ridiculous amounts of ire. For that reason alone, it has to go.

As in EL, the science cost of technologies increases as you research more of them. This is a nice way of preventing a science-focused faction from totally running away with the game, but the way it was implemented pre-Update 1 meant that it was incredibly punishing to try to research away from specific tech paths that unlocked the most important/necessary technologies. It still is punishing, but there's more room for divergence now. This is, inherently, a problem with their system: it discourages players from researching marginal techs, because doing so is an opportunity cost up front and also limits the number of techs you can get in the future.

Compounding that, some of the techologies are hands-down more important than others, and some are so marginal there's no need to research them. This, along with rising tech costs, reinforces the idea that there is a specific research path you must follow, with little variation, or you'll shoot yourself in the foot. This rigidity is bad (IMO) from a gameplay point of view; you want players to have balanced but meaningful options, so that they can play a game completely differently from before but still have a good chance at winning, because the choices they have to make aren't necessarily stratified but instead depend on the environment and the choices of other players.

There are also relatively fewer technologies in ES2 than there were in ES1, because many effects have been grouped together. Yet again, this increases the importance of specific technologies, often in a negative way. Between the initial release of EA and Update 1, some technologies were reorganized in a manner that seems more logical, but it's still the case that most (all?) technologies unlock multiple things. I am personally fine with this provided that the other problems are addressed, but there is a case to be made against it.

In any event, most of the discussion over the current tech tree will become a relic once Update 2 hits (Endless Day, I'm guessing) and the new style of tech progression is revealed; it looks like the problems with the current system are being wholly addressed. I'm very much looking forward to that, because Amplitude has shown not only a willingness to listen to the community and work on fixing mistakes, but also a great deal of inventiveness in doing so.

Romeo wrote:

Go outside of space and your options open up considerably. Age of Wonders III has fantastic combat, for example.

I own AOW 3 and all the expansions. It is an awesome game. It's turn based combat though. I prefer a RT system in space. 

Also, this was kind of my first point. I do want to play space games. I just would like to see some more developers not skimp on the exterminate part of the 4x experience and deliver something equally entertaining on both the empire and combat side.

Which is totally a fair opinion. The tech system really puts me off (Though I appreciate most other elements) and that almost made me holdout.

I think they are changing the tech system from what I read, to be more like the first game. What annoys you about what they currently do have? I'm obviously not in EA so I can't comment much here.

Slashman wrote:

Well I like both empire management and decent combat in the same 4x. The number of devs willing to actually do that is minuscule. Most people give the same response when I bring it up: "Other games do it so play those". And that is actually not really true. Few 4x space empire games have good 'managed' combat alongside the empire building/strategy side of things. My current actual choices are:

1)  Sins of a Solar Empire. I've owned it for years and it is a RTS 4x, not turn based + RT battles.

2) Star Ruler 2. Same deal and the battles are not really interactive, you just move a flagship and fleet near another flagship and fleet and watch them hammer away. the ship design is extremely intricate and cool though. This is a great game for a number of other reasons. Everyone should give it a try.

3) Star Drive 2. A game with a lot of problems and hampered by the one-dev syndrome. He can't do everything and he falls down in a number of places.

4)  The new MOO. Still struggling to get things right. Not sure it will ever really be as good as it could be. I'm watching it closely though.

And that's basically it apart from the decade-old (but still excellent) Sword of the Stars and the publisher-screwed Sword of the Stars 2.

Getting back to ES 2, I didn't mind the card system in the first game. I thought it would be expanded on in ES 2 even if mixed with the current "choose your fleet route" system. But I can't call this more complex or giving the player more agency in combat. I'm fine with skipping out on ES 2. I just don't want this to get ported over to EL 2 (whenever that happens), although my luck and experience says that it probably will.

Go outside of space and your options open up considerably. Age of Wonders III has fantastic combat, for example.

Frogsquadron wrote:

The first installment of the new Space battle should be coming for Update 2. It will not be fully implemented by that point, but it should give you a much more interesting preparation phase.

We've stated why we won't add decisions during combat elsewhere and at length, so I'll not go over that again, but yeah: Update 2— bringing the Space combat revamp to you.

Personally, this reminds me of the former game anyways, which was more "give directions, not orders". So that sounds AOK to me!

Slashman wrote:

I'll wait until EA is over to make a final decision, but I'm currently not oozing with excitement. Maybe that will change once I see the fleshed out final product.

Which is totally a fair opinion. The tech system really puts me off (Though I appreciate most other elements) and that almost made me holdout.

I'll wait until EA is over to make a final decision, but I'm currently not oozing with excitement. Maybe that will change once I see the fleshed out final product.

The first installment of the new Space battle should be coming for Update 2. It will not be fully implemented by that point, but it should give you a much more interesting preparation phase.

We've stated why we won't add decisions during combat elsewhere and at length, so I'll not go over that again, but yeah: Update 2— bringing the Space combat revamp to you.

Ola

Man I am playing a bit of endless space disharmony and its pretty gooood. I am getting thrashed by the amoeba. lol

In all seriousness now, Amplitute, please remember that some of your current and future customers are ES1 players so they expect a level of similarity to the original game. What I mean to say is, in few words, is that I would hope for an ES1 with more features (better graphics, complex space fights, senate feature, quests, etc) but the backbone of the game remains like ES1.

Don't get me wrong, ES2 is shaping up pretty good, but for example, the current technology square in ES2 (that I know will be changed) is your attempt to create something new. Don't! It was pretty good on ES1 so just copy and play with it with new ideas. You get what I'm saying?

Happy New Year and much love from Panama! 

P.S. I wrote this 2 times because of a misclick so that's how I'm invested in this game!

Slashman wrote:

Well I like both empire management and decent combat in the same 4x. The number of devs willing to actually do that is minuscule. Most people give the same response when I bring it up: "Other games do it so play those". And that is actually not really true. Few 4x space empire games have good 'managed' combat alongside the empire building/strategy side of things.

Well, I guess that is true.

Getting back to ES 2, I didn't mind the card system in the first game. I thought it would be expanded on in ES 2 even if mixed with the current "choose your fleet route" system. But I can't call this more complex or giving the player more agency in combat. I'm fine with skipping out on ES 2. I just don't want this to get ported over to EL 2 (whenever that happens), although my luck and experience says that it probably will.

It seems like Amplitude is pretty adamant about the player doing nothing during the actual combat and only having few choices pre-battle...

mixerria wrote:

Welp, I like good military strategy games, too. But I actually like the way they did it in ES2, tbh. It feels more like a "Space-Emperor-Simulator". xD I don't need to micromanage every battle, I need to make sure that my admirals have the latest ship designs and decently big fleets. ^^

If I want to micromanage combat a lot, there's always Company of Heroes 2. If you haven't played that, give it a shot, btw, it's damn good.

Well I like both empire management and decent combat in the same 4x. The number of devs willing to actually do that is minuscule. Most people give the same response when I bring it up: "Other games do it so play those". And that is actually not really true. Few 4x space empire games have good 'managed' combat alongside the empire building/strategy side of things. My current actual choices are:

1)  Sins of a Solar Empire. I've owned it for years and it is a RTS 4x, not turn based + RT battles.

2) Star Ruler 2. Same deal and the battles are not really interactive, you just move a flagship and fleet near another flagship and fleet and watch them hammer away. the ship design is extremely intricate and cool though. This is a great game for a number of other reasons. Everyone should give it a try.

3) Star Drive 2. A game with a lot of problems and hampered by the one-dev syndrome. He can't do everything and he falls down in a number of places.

4)  The new MOO. Still struggling to get things right. Not sure it will ever really be as good as it could be. I'm watching it closely though.

And that's basically it apart from the decade-old (but still excellent) Sword of the Stars and the publisher-screwed Sword of the Stars 2.

Getting back to ES 2, I didn't mind the card system in the first game. I thought it would be expanded on in ES 2 even if mixed with the current "choose your fleet route" system. But I can't call this more complex or giving the player more agency in combat. I'm fine with skipping out on ES 2. I just don't want this to get ported over to EL 2 (whenever that happens), although my luck and experience says that it probably will.

Slashman wrote:

Romeo wrote:

Slashman wrote:

Not so sure about the more complex combat. Pretty sure it's the opposite on that score.

If only there was still more time to actually flesh it out and do more with it.

I don't think Amplitude is all that interested in combat. More complex combat generally means more time spent on balancing and tweaking instead of just making it look pretty. Decent space combat is hard, but I'd rather the system from ES1 than what they've shown. 

It's why I'm skipping ES2. It's looking like more of a XXXx game with the combat/conquest side getting smaller and smaller. I don't see much for people who want to enjoy the battle side of it except "choose a ship path and go get a sandwich/autoresolve." 

That's fine for most folks here who may not want to pay attention to battles. But if that's the actual feeling of most players, I'd say remove the component entirely and save dev time on a half-baked system and use it to make the empire side better. 

My real fear is that they are going to go this route in EL 2. And if that is the case, then I'm sadly going to have to wave goodbye to this very fine dev studio as they will no longer be making games for me.  

Welp, I like good military strategy games, too. But I actually like the way they did it in ES2, tbh. It feels more like a "Space-Emperor-Simulator". xD I don't need to micromanage every battle, I need to make sure that my admirals have the latest ship designs and decently big fleets. ^^

If I want to micromanage combat a lot, there's always Company of Heroes 2. If you haven't played that, give it a shot, btw, it's damn good.

Romeo wrote:

Slashman wrote:

Not so sure about the more complex combat. Pretty sure it's the opposite on that score.

If only there was still more time to actually flesh it out and do more with it.

I don't think Amplitude is all that interested in combat. More complex combat generally means more time spent on balancing and tweaking instead of just making it look pretty. Decent space combat is hard, but I'd rather the system from ES1 than what they've shown. 

It's why I'm skipping ES2. It's looking like more of a XXXx game with the combat/conquest side getting smaller and smaller. I don't see much for people who want to enjoy the battle side of it except "choose a ship path and go get a sandwich/autoresolve." 

That's fine for most folks here who may not want to pay attention to battles. But if that's the actual feeling of most players, I'd say remove the component entirely and save dev time on a half-baked system and use it to make the empire side better. 

My real fear is that they are going to go this route in EL 2. And if that is the case, then I'm sadly going to have to wave goodbye to this very fine dev studio as they will no longer be making games for me.  

nalgasucia507 wrote:

Ola

Man I am playing a bit of endless space disharmony and its pretty gooood. I am getting thrashed by the amoeba. lol

In all seriousness now, Amplitute, please remember that some of your current and future customers are ES1 players so they expect a level of similarity to the original game. What I mean to say is, in few words, is that I would hope for an ES1 with more features (better graphics, complex space fights, senate feature, quests, etc) but the backbone of the game remains like ES1.

Don't get me wrong, ES2 is shaping up pretty good, but for example, the current technology square in ES2 (that I know will be changed) is your attempt to create something new. Don't! It was pretty good on ES1 so just copy and play with it with new ideas. You get what I'm saying?

Happy New Year and much love from Panama! 

P.S. I wrote this 2 times because of a misclick so that's how I'm invested in this game!

Many of us agree, but there's been a bajillion topics about this already, some of which have replies in them from the devs.

Slashman wrote:

Not so sure about the more complex combat. Pretty sure it's the opposite on that score.

If only there was still more time to actually flesh it out and do more with it.

Not so sure about the more complex combat. Pretty sure it's the opposite on that score.

nalgasucia507 wrote:

Ola

Man I am playing a bit of endless space disharmony and its pretty gooood. I am getting thrashed by the amoeba. lol

In all seriousness now, Amplitute, please remember that some of your current and future customers are ES1 players so they expect a level of similarity to the original game. What I mean to say is, in few words, is that I would hope for an ES1 with more features (better graphics, complex space fights, senate feature, quests, etc) but the backbone of the game remains like ES1.

Don't get me wrong, ES2 is shaping up pretty good, but for example, the current technology square in ES2 (that I know will be changed) is your attempt to create something new. Don't! It was pretty good on ES1 so just copy and play with it with new ideas. You get what I'm saying?

Happy New Year and much love from Panama! 

P.S. I wrote this 2 times because of a misclick so that's how I'm invested in this game!

They've already teased/shown a revamping of the tech tree to be much more in line with how ES1 was. Stay tuned!