I still confused how to fully utilized it.

Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:

They spoked about this a lot of the time : there was some talks about their reasons to remove this from the game 3 month ago.

Main reason is, to sumurize their position, "chessmove > 2 minutes 30 delay to click 3x > AI click for you by passing the battle".

They want the exact same thing if you click "watch the battle" or not, it is by design.

Nevertheless I have an opinion about it. And the thread is, as OP asked, about a rating and an opinion. Explaining their reasoning behind this, whether it's done by you or Amplitude themselves, doesn't change my opinion about it. But thanks for the clarification I guess.

Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:

Lobotomite wrote:

it's just a "video"

It's meant to be "just a video". This is by design. These are chessmoves, with additional fireworks if you likes them or if you want to add a little suspense to an uncertain combat.

ES1 combat was exactly that, with less dynamic camera, less dynamic animations (weapon pods for example), less dynamic formations/fleet movement BUT you could use an additinal card for each phase. You actually had to win the battle and clicking it away was only an option when you outnumbered the enemy by far (as it should be). That's all there is to be said about it being worse than the first iteration. All those new additions mean nothing when you click it away except for those three times per session you don't because you have a close call/suspense whatever. Huge difference between "just a video" and "interactive video". It's a game, I want to play it not watch it.

@Amplitude just gimme those in-battle interactivity back, those "alien encounter" feeling when I do not know what the enemy has but after I've seen it I can play him out by adjusting my tactic during the fight.

bluetale wrote:

Of course, it's better than ES1.  More flexible deck-based battle system, and ground battle, they make me happy to see.

But, still, I think combat system is poor - just better than ES1 -

Actually, although I can't tell you I liked that combat system of Endless Legend, I really loved combination of various units in EL.

I could feel units are well designed to be combined with other units - even if there were only 3 exclusive units per race.

But in ES2, spamming ultimate ships seems like the only way to dominate our opponent.

Hope there would be a specific and exclusive role for every kind of ships, to make some synergy between them.

And - I can't remember this thing exactly though; I'm waiting for Update 3! - it would be good to meet minor faction's ship when we encounter or assimilate them.

Actually, in ES2 the special module system is restricted to equipping some to special hull types only. Ultimate spamming is not the "only way to dominate". They improved this aspect and it doesn't seem finished yet, so I expect it to get even better with the introduction of fighters and bombers.

Of course, it's better than ES1.  More flexible deck-based battle system, and ground battle, they make me happy to see.

But, still, I think combat system is poor - just better than ES1 -

Actually, although I can't tell you I liked that combat system of Endless Legend, I really loved combination of various units in EL.

I could feel units are well designed to be combined with other units - even if there were only 3 exclusive units per race.

But in ES2, spamming ultimate ships seems like the only way to dominate our opponent.

Hope there would be a specific and exclusive role for every kind of ships, to make some synergy between them.

And - I can't remember this thing exactly though; I'm waiting for Update 3! - it would be good to meet minor faction's ship when we encounter or assimilate them.

Lobotomite wrote:

MessiTheMessiah wrote:

Lobotomite wrote:

Currently it lacks just one reason to "watch" it other than just looking at the visualization. The sequence is better than in ES1 but why look at it at all? Not one reason. In ES1 you could influence it via adjusting the tactics, which was a lot better. They should add to this even more instead of removing it alltogether. I mean after looking at it the third time it's just the same. Everytime. Meh. The ability to take part in the battle should definitely be reintroduced. Why even waste time on the feature if it's not used in the end and just plain skipped? The sequence alone adds nothing at all to the game, could have saved the time to make all those (admittedly awesome) 3d models if they want to go down that road.

Same for ground combat. Actually even worse because it doesn't play out so much different, same visualization everytime. Boring. I'm glad they added it though, but needs to have the ability to adjust the tactic as well. Should also scale the unit size down, someone ever invaded with a huge force? Just overlapping sprites. Another meh. Was looking forward to 3d models actually which charge each other like in Master of Orion 2, nice battlesuits and all. Now it's just "dungeon of the endless" sprite art, walking to a line, and firing three times - no dynamics at all.

I also don't like the non-factionspecific hero-ships. Cravers in red toy ship? Noooo, please, nooo... players should just be able to mark one ship of the fleet as flagship, and this is then used by the hero assigned to the fleet. Done. Much work saved and no additional 3d-art needed.

Actually while I'm writing this I realize this is actually the only part (so far) which is a big step back compared to ES1. All the other stuff is improved (so far) compared to ES1 - factions (although their presentation is sometimes a bit off - why females with huge breasts as faction leaders? gods...) politics, mixed population, minor factions, dynamic tech tree - all add more depth to the game. Combat? Reduced to an animated sequence. I didn't give up hope though, I'm used to be surprised by Amplitude.

Well, take my comment with a grain of salt. It's obviously heavily influenced by personal taste. The gameplay itself has improved, combat in particular not, and the presentation of the factions (Sophons look now awesome though) is lacking imo.

I personally didn't play ES1 so I cant compare the two.  But the combat is by far the least impressive part of this game.  Literally EVERYTHING else is amazing(for an alpha).  Once they improve the AI and Diplomacy the game will be great.. and I hope they do something with the combat.  I would give it a 2 out of 5 personally for the combat.  As I play the game more I am watching the combat less and less I notice. 

In ES1 the three phases long, medium and short range combat where clearly announced in combination with the ability to play a card for each round and thus change tactics during a battle to counter revealed strenghts of the enemy fleet or emphasize on your own. Meaning you could actually influence or even change the outcome after it had started instead of just watching how your decision plays out without any means of changing the tides. I don't claim it was perfect but removing the interactive element completely is just a waste since you as the player sooner or later ends up with just clicking it away - since it's just a "video". Similar to a game's intro - at first nice to look at, later you might start cursing the devs for autostarting it every-single-time you start the game although you totally know it already. With the priority targets locked it literally is just the auto-camera feature which changes the visuals dynamically (not every time beneficial imo) - gets boring very fast.

I know they won't do this but I always wished for a true roundbased combat system with adjustable power (to directional shields, or weapon systems to counter enemy defense, or engine to get in a fav position) in a 3d-space, where you can pull off boarding maneuvers (so awesome!!!) to salvage enemy tech, raw resources, capture slaves (if applicable) and heroes (to sell 'em or brainwash 'em) and have your interceptors/fighters swarm enemy capital ships etc. 

When you have a look at the ground battles as of now, in space it's just the same - plus you got some tracking shots. Waste of a lot potential and working resources imo.

I would prefer a system like that as well. I just don't know how well it would work for MP where you could have 3-4 real people playing at a time.   I definitely want a system a little more involved then what we have though.  The battles are pretty, but that only matters for so long then you want depth.

MessiTheMessiah wrote:

Lobotomite wrote:

Currently it lacks just one reason to "watch" it other than just looking at the visualization. The sequence is better than in ES1 but why look at it at all? Not one reason. In ES1 you could influence it via adjusting the tactics, which was a lot better. They should add to this even more instead of removing it alltogether. I mean after looking at it the third time it's just the same. Everytime. Meh. The ability to take part in the battle should definitely be reintroduced. Why even waste time on the feature if it's not used in the end and just plain skipped? The sequence alone adds nothing at all to the game, could have saved the time to make all those (admittedly awesome) 3d models if they want to go down that road.

Same for ground combat. Actually even worse because it doesn't play out so much different, same visualization everytime. Boring. I'm glad they added it though, but needs to have the ability to adjust the tactic as well. Should also scale the unit size down, someone ever invaded with a huge force? Just overlapping sprites. Another meh. Was looking forward to 3d models actually which charge each other like in Master of Orion 2, nice battlesuits and all. Now it's just "dungeon of the endless" sprite art, walking to a line, and firing three times - no dynamics at all.

I also don't like the non-factionspecific hero-ships. Cravers in red toy ship? Noooo, please, nooo... players should just be able to mark one ship of the fleet as flagship, and this is then used by the hero assigned to the fleet. Done. Much work saved and no additional 3d-art needed.

Actually while I'm writing this I realize this is actually the only part (so far) which is a big step back compared to ES1. All the other stuff is improved (so far) compared to ES1 - factions (although their presentation is sometimes a bit off - why females with huge breasts as faction leaders? gods...) politics, mixed population, minor factions, dynamic tech tree - all add more depth to the game. Combat? Reduced to an animated sequence. I didn't give up hope though, I'm used to be surprised by Amplitude.

Well, take my comment with a grain of salt. It's obviously heavily influenced by personal taste. The gameplay itself has improved, combat in particular not, and the presentation of the factions (Sophons look now awesome though) is lacking imo.

I personally didn't play ES1 so I cant compare the two.  But the combat is by far the least impressive part of this game.  Literally EVERYTHING else is amazing(for an alpha).  Once they improve the AI and Diplomacy the game will be great.. and I hope they do something with the combat.  I would give it a 2 out of 5 personally for the combat.  As I play the game more I am watching the combat less and less I notice. 

In ES1 the three phases long, medium and short range combat where clearly announced in combination with the ability to play a card for each round and thus change tactics during a battle to counter revealed strenghts of the enemy fleet or emphasize on your own. Meaning you could actually influence or even change the outcome after it had started instead of just watching how your decision plays out without any means of changing the tides. I don't claim it was perfect but removing the interactive element completely is just a waste since you as the player sooner or later ends up with just clicking it away - since it's just a "video". Similar to a game's intro - at first nice to look at, later you might start cursing the devs for autostarting it every-single-time you start the game although you totally know it already. With the priority targets locked it literally is just the auto-camera feature which changes the visuals dynamically (not every time beneficial imo) - gets boring very fast.

I know they won't do this but I always wished for a true roundbased combat system with adjustable power (to directional shields, or weapon systems to counter enemy defense, or engine to get in a fav position) in a 3d-space, where you can pull off boarding maneuvers (so awesome!!!) to salvage enemy tech, raw resources, capture slaves (if applicable) and heroes (to sell 'em or brainwash 'em) and have your interceptors/fighters swarm enemy capital ships etc. 

When you have a look at the ground battles as of now, in space it's just the same - plus you got some tracking shots. Waste of a lot potential and working resources imo.

Lobotomite wrote:

Currently it lacks just one reason to "watch" it other than just looking at the visualization. The sequence is better than in ES1 but why look at it at all? Not one reason. In ES1 you could influence it via adjusting the tactics, which was a lot better. They should add to this even more instead of removing it alltogether. I mean after looking at it the third time it's just the same. Everytime. Meh. The ability to take part in the battle should definitely be reintroduced. Why even waste time on the feature if it's not used in the end and just plain skipped? The sequence alone adds nothing at all to the game, could have saved the time to make all those (admittedly awesome) 3d models if they want to go down that road.

Same for ground combat. Actually even worse because it doesn't play out so much different, same visualization everytime. Boring. I'm glad they added it though, but needs to have the ability to adjust the tactic as well. Should also scale the unit size down, someone ever invaded with a huge force? Just overlapping sprites. Another meh. Was looking forward to 3d models actually which charge each other like in Master of Orion 2, nice battlesuits and all. Now it's just "dungeon of the endless" sprite art, walking to a line, and firing three times - no dynamics at all.

I also don't like the non-factionspecific hero-ships. Cravers in red toy ship? Noooo, please, nooo... players should just be able to mark one ship of the fleet as flagship, and this is then used by the hero assigned to the fleet. Done. Much work saved and no additional 3d-art needed.

Actually while I'm writing this I realize this is actually the only part (so far) which is a big step back compared to ES1. All the other stuff is improved (so far) compared to ES1 - factions (although their presentation is sometimes a bit off - why females with huge breasts as faction leaders? gods...) politics, mixed population, minor factions, dynamic tech tree - all add more depth to the game. Combat? Reduced to an animated sequence. I didn't give up hope though, I'm used to be surprised by Amplitude.

Well, take my comment with a grain of salt. It's obviously heavily influenced by personal taste. The gameplay itself has improved, combat in particular not, and the presentation of the factions (Sophons look now awesome though) is lacking imo.

I personally didn't play ES1 so I cant compare the two.  But the combat is by far the least impressive part of this game.  Literally EVERYTHING else is amazing(for an alpha).  Once they improve the AI and Diplomacy the game will be great.. and I hope they do something with the combat.  I would give it a 2 out of 5 personally for the combat.  As I play the game more I am watching the combat less and less I notice. 

Currently it lacks just one reason to "watch" it other than just looking at the visualization. The sequence is better than in ES1 but why look at it at all? Not one reason. In ES1 you could influence it via adjusting the tactics, which was a lot better. They should add to this even more instead of removing it alltogether. I mean after looking at it the third time it's just the same. Everytime. Meh. The ability to take part in the battle should definitely be reintroduced. Why even waste time on the feature if it's not used in the end and just plain skipped? The sequence alone adds nothing at all to the game, could have saved the time to make all those (admittedly awesome) 3d models if they want to go down that road.

Same for ground combat. Actually even worse because it doesn't play out so much different, same visualization everytime. Boring. I'm glad they added it though, but needs to have the ability to adjust the tactic as well. Should also scale the unit size down, someone ever invaded with a huge force? Just overlapping sprites. Another meh. Was looking forward to 3d models actually which charge each other like in Master of Orion 2, nice battlesuits and all. Now it's just "dungeon of the endless" sprite art, walking to a line, and firing three times - no dynamics at all.

I also don't like the non-factionspecific hero-ships. Cravers in red toy ship? Noooo, please, nooo... players should just be able to mark one ship of the fleet as flagship, and this is then used by the hero assigned to the fleet. Done. Much work saved and no additional 3d-art needed.

Actually while I'm writing this I realize this is actually the only part (so far) which is a big step back compared to ES1. All the other stuff is improved (so far) compared to ES1 - factions (although their presentation is sometimes a bit off - why females with huge breasts as faction leaders? gods...) politics, mixed population, minor factions, dynamic tech tree - all add more depth to the game. Combat? Reduced to an animated sequence. I didn't give up hope though, I'm used to be surprised by Amplitude.

Well, take my comment with a grain of salt. It's obviously heavily influenced by personal taste. The gameplay itself has improved, combat in particular not, and the presentation of the factions (Sophons look now awesome though) is lacking imo.

Baskerville wrote:

Good to see the devs have identified most of the problems and are working to make improvements.

I have a question in regards to the stats screen before each battle. The one that depicts a bunch of different ratios, they dont seem to be affected by anything you do. For instance I tried changing the battle card being played and also moved a few ships around to different flotillas, I didnt see any change to the ratios. 

Is this feature not implemented at the moment? 

Ratio are dependants of you ships, not the range slot you put them in.

If all your ships are 100% Missiles, they get Long range 100% / Medium range 100% / Short range 0% in whatever spot you put them in.

In Update "0" and Update 1, these ranges applied to your damage. In Update 2, this is miss shots. Missiles will hit in Update 2 with 100% chance in Long range and Medium.

Good to see the devs have identified most of the problems and are working to make improvements.

I have a question in regards to the stats screen before each battle. The one that depicts a bunch of different ratios, they dont seem to be affected by anything you do. For instance I tried changing the battle card being played and also moved a few ships around to different flotillas, I didnt see any change to the ratios. 

Is this feature not implemented at the moment? 

Well, as a VIP seeing things "behind the scenes", I can PROMISE YOU that they are still looking at ways to make combat more understandable and transparent. 

Have faith, my friends. It will only get better. 

I listed 3 out of 5 because I'm just feeling a bit lost with combat in general. I'll echo Mialanko & say I'm just unclear on how exactly the specifics of combat works out. I liked ES1 & EL's combat systems, despite that they were very different. They were both also fairly intuitive. I'm sure this will improve by the game's launch (heck I'm confident that it'll be good come the beta) but as is I'm just a bit confused and hoping for the best.

As the header says, please keep criticisms constructive.  What would make it better if you think it is poor through OK? 

At this time, I tried different strats with the different weapons and it was never really pleasant, in term of experience. 

The trajectories and distance system is so obfuscated, I don't really know what happened after a battle, even if I looked it.

I tried making enforcers ships with beam strategy in mind, it worked sometimes, at an overall higher loss cost.

The game suffer his old demon, shoot first and win, but why it won't ? For the moment the combat system is the same as ES1 with even less depth. We need ways to manage targeting priorities like in ES1, for exemple focus the flottilla actually doing the most DPS, then it would let opportunities for the opponent to make "silent" flotillas, with only beam, they don't shoot at first and don't attract attention, even without heavy defenses ship they could approach sneaky and deliver destruction when it's too late.

A "focus on the closest target" could counter these tactics, but could be countered by frontline heavy defenses ships.

I think we definitely need an target priority based on the distance of enemy flotillas, especially to counter the mass artillery strat.

It would be nice to play on the distribution of ships in flotillas, for the moment I don't see the advantage to put more on left or on the middle. It would be interesting to be able to switch the weapons angles on our ships, a button could allow me to switch between a heavy mount or two broadsides, even if the ship visual look the same for both I don't care. Broadside would allow a ship to spread his fire on multiple targets on both sides and a heavy mount would fire stronger but one at a time.

The factions in the game need more unique warfare, I think unique weapons would be a basic, like a draining beam for Vodyani, some repair drones for empire, some lure / fake units for Sophons, some kamikaze fighters for cravers etc.

Mysterarts wrote:

Hi,

Thanks for your feedback

We know that we are still missing some important elements to completely prove the interest of the feature (especially to improve the readability): 

• A detailed stats panel in the ship design screen will clarify some concepts like energy and projectile defenses (and we will give more stats in the ship / fleet tooltip) 
• An overview camera with specific feedback to have a global understanding of the battle
• A detailed after-action report to see the efficiency of the strategies where a lot of the obscure concepts should become understandable (effective ranges, ship label in the battle scan view including defense absorption, card effects, experience gains, etc.)
• More elements to increase the importance of flotilla distribution (support modules for the entire flotilla, better targeting / aggro, special modules with flotilla stance, etc.) and we will feedback the Command Points required to unlock more flotillas (currently: 5CP (and at least 2 ships) then 10CP (and at least 3 ships)
• Arena effects to add diversity in the encounters
• More content, especially exotic effects for strategical modules
• More cards and ways to unlock them to increase the opportunities to change your deck
• And very important: an IA being able to build ships and decks in a coherent manner, and to counter players to force them to adapt their strategy!

@Mailanka: I hope this list answers some of your concerns!

To be 100% clear here, I'm expressing my experience with the game as it is.  I'm aware that there's still sawdust on the floor (for example, I understand the strategics need a rework anyway), and that as one's understanding of the game improves, you can see more opportunities for strategy, so it might well be my understanding that's flawed, but giving me the tools to better get at that information will help (though naturally, we also run the risk of information overload).

And yes you're right about the medium range and the admiral heroes experience, we will look at these issues.
Currently, a level up increases the ship's maximum health.

Oh really?  I'll have to look more closely at that.  That's not a bad choice, to be honest (I could also see, perhaps, some increased accuracy, but I don't know how much accuracy is an issue)

Since update 2, you can move ships between flotillas with a drag & drop! We will improve the feedback to clarify this possibility.
But because of this (and the fact that we show previous cards and not the real cards of the opponent), we can't feedback the range and compatibilities anymore.
Indeed, your opponent can change their ship distribution like you and the stats no longer make sense.

Really?  I'll have to try that.  I had no idea that was possible.  Indeed, it sounds like the problem is feedback more than anything else, which is understandable, given the current state of the game.

This is coming from a brand new gamer to this area or this company.  Game was my first try into their companies games.  I felt the battles a little boring tbh.  Great visuals but once you make one choice you just sit there.  I really believe it should be more interactive in some sort.  After 2-3 battles i just started skipping watching them.  Sad really a lot of time was spent on this to make it look that good.  But just to boring imo.

in a way, i dislike it compared to the previous.

it rings more true with ES1 with the deck system, which i fully support. customizing a deck that you research and build is really neat.

Not being able to easily see what the AI do, or at a short glance what the ai is most efficient at makes things a little more difficult, and a lot harder for a newer player to pick up on.

I think a minor change, but major improvement to the current system would be: 

1. to once again allow players to simulate enemy fleet positionings retaining the "star" for most optimal, so they can understand what best to play against it with out having to look at each ship's armaments and having a huge overhead of information they must know in their head.

2. to allow players to customize which ships go in which fleet position slot (im getting a lot of situations where ships i have fitted with long range weapons are the ones that take the "spear tip" position, while my more durable shorter range ships take the backline, and i can't really do much (or if i can, it's not obvious to me how) to change that.

Overall the direction and philosophy for the new combat system is good. the way it plays is fairly good. and the concept is really great, but the readability, accessibility, and ability for a player to actually use the system and make meaningful and rewarding decisions seems very obfuscated.

MessiTheMessiah wrote:

I personally think they are very cool to watch, but I think they lack a little depth.  I am sure that will improve though over time. 

I am certain that the effect of the system's anomalies and surroundings in general will add much more depth to the space battles. The possibilities are Endless (pun intended) :P

I personally think they are very cool to watch, but I think they lack a little depth.  I am sure that will improve though over time. 

Moofasa wrote:

Is this Poll related to the changes to 0.2.5 patch or in general?

It was done before 0.2.5, was done after update 2.   It is still relevant IMO, if people thinkthe latest update improved the combat people are more than welcome to change their vote(if that's even possible).

Is this Poll related to the changes to 0.2.5 patch or in general?

I personally love the cinematic approach to the combat. The ships are beautiful, and the battle sequences are awesome. I wouldn't mind some more depth to it which hopefully will come with patches. 

It is better than ES 1. I want more from it though.

As an American, the combat feels like a play in football. We both know the relative strength of each others' fleets, but the real game is the strategy in which play to go with and the guessing game of what the opponent will do. If you guess their best line of play, you can choose to counter that rather than match your fleet's weapons and if you're right, you'll be rewarded.

It's kind of basic in the early game, but things get really interesting in the late game when you have any number of combinations of flotilla range combos and card effects. Moving ships between flotillas adds to the guessing factor and being able to throw your opponent off. I love games of bluffing like poker and football and the direction they've moved it in is a vast improvement from where it was before.

Only complaint right now is that kinetics feel OP right now, which worries me a little since LR kinetics became absolutely OP to the point of never choosing anything else in ES1: Disharmony. As long as we avoid that pothole, I think the combat system will be great.