Logo Platform
logo amplifiers simplified

LAW upkeep cost generally too high?

Reply
Copied to clipboard!
7 years ago
Jan 18, 2018, 2:23:52 PM

So unless I play United Empire, I rarely go for many laws.


I find it a bit odd. There is a HUGE political system in the game that is interwoven with like all major side features and man, I cannot even grasp how much work that thing probably was to figure out correctly, and yet I rarely care of the political system. Just because when I set up 1 LAW all my influence is used. Sometimes even going to the minus.


And I really never had the feeling that it is worth to structure my empire in a way that it creates enough influence, because production and science win the game. 

Is it my playstyle? Or anyone else feels like the political LAW system is balanced in a  way that it decreases it's usage for most factions? 

Sure, in the very late game, you have more laws active, but by then I dominate the galaxy anyhow, and they don't really make a difference. 

0Send private message
7 years ago
Jan 18, 2018, 2:36:56 PM

100% agree. We used to be flush with influence, now I am always starved for it.

0Send private message
7 years ago
Jan 18, 2018, 2:41:22 PM

I think it's about right. With infleunce buildings and Spin system improvements, I can usually find enough influence to run a few laws, but I do have to be careful in what and when I run it, and match influence infrastructure. It's much improved; in the past, I had so much influence I just ran all the best laws and never gave it much thought.

Updated 7 years ago.
0Send private message
7 years ago
Jan 18, 2018, 3:08:08 PM

@Dragar


For the 1 upkeep laws I think it kind of works. But you have early availability to laws that require 2 or even 3 upkeep, and those seem unattainable to me, without unreasonably going for the empire tree and totally neglecting industry and science.


Maybe a slight reduction of some laws might help here. Something like 1.5 instead of 2 or 2.5 instead of 3. For example "Mining and Refining efficiency" is a meager +1 strat resource and 10% induzstry boost per strat, which is available already when industry is "established" (so rather early for a lot empires) but I never seem to be able to afford 2/pop upkeep that early in the game.


Why would I spend my influence on those LAWS if the most important aspect of the early game is to absorb minor civs, for which you need to save all your influence anyway. I mean, staying their "suzerein" ally is nothing you can guarantee, and the AI faction WILL assimillate the minors, so you have to be faster.  I don't see a reason to put my influence in laws with which I then start to be better at warship production or combat to overtake the minor in a lengthy process, when I can just put that influence to use directly to overtake them.


Now if it was possible to "protect" a minor from being overtaken by other factions through military support or something like that, things would be different. You could actually postpone the assimilation and just keep em on your side, while using influence elsewhere. But that's not possible.


So as it stands now, that is my experience. 

Updated 7 years ago.
0Send private message
7 years ago
Jan 18, 2018, 3:30:51 PM

Plenty of laws are worth getting the influence to run, and it's not too difficult to run several of them. Just a run down of the laws that I think are worth it:


Early game:

Running Cram Exam for as long as possible will cut significant time off your research. You should only drop it when it's making the difference between the content and happy, or you need the law slot. At least you don't need influence for this one.
Running the 20% industry bonus for Sophons is extremely important as you're so starved for industry.
Running first ecologist law for Horatio if you have any anomalies on your starting system can launch you hard. It's optional, but very strong in the right circumstances.
Running early Craver militarist laws gets you on that war machine faster. As you are running against the clock, this is important.
Vodyani starting essence law is essential, and should be run for the majority of the game.
Mineral miser is close to essential for Riftborn. You will struggle to get enough titanium for singularities without it.
Pacifist early laws are a bit meh, but this is made up by the later ones.

Mid Game: 


All of the above still applies, with some notable additions.

Horatio with their special ecologist laws start to become a powerhouse, especially if you are running republic. Power to the People with a few gene splices means you start reaching Sophon levels of science. The best thing about Horatio is that they produce so much influence they can run these laws without breaking a sweat.
Us vs Them is an essential law to run for Cravers. You will find it difficult to gain conquest victory without total economic/approval meltdown without it. This goes for any militarist strategy, other than running religious 'force to content' law, which is inferior due to the lack of bonuses from happy and ecstatic.
Star Boogie gives the Sophons both offensive and defensive reach unavailable to any other factions. It's not essential, but is extremely strong when fighting wars.
The dust bonus luxury boost law for Unfallen and Lumeris is close to essential if you want to win an economy game.

Late(ish) Game*:

Republic with 3 law slots for Horatio, with their last two ecologist laws, and the first one, makes them the strongest late game faction IMO. You're talking ~50% bonus to science and industry on all systems after 8-12 gene splices.
The final militarist law makes the Cravers unstoppable in combat, allowing you to finish out the game. You may start to lose to momentum otherwise.
The last pacifist law makes both Lumeris and Unfallen economic powerhouses, though not quite to Horatio levels.
Work not Shirk is generally great.

*I say late, but all these laws come around turn 80 on normal, which is more like the late mid game, as most of my games on normal finish around turn 160.

Note how nearly all of these bonuses effect industry and science as a percentage, which means it scales. If you're not using laws you are severely hindering yourself. You can pretty much run all the laws you want with just two buildings - the influence wonder (on a good system) and a few of the museum influence buildings on high pop systems. The only difficulty I tend to find is where to fit these in my tech path without sacrificing too much efficiency. Usually the whole pace of my game is based on when these buildings will arrive, and when certain laws become available. For example, I will play fairly defensively with Horatio until turn 80, after which I know I can churn out ships and science easily. Or for Cravers, prioritising homeworlds for conquest in preparation for using Us vs Them. Same goes if I plan to switch to Sheredyn.

If you are running low on influence due to law usage in the early game, good! It means the influence is being used well, and not just sitting there doing nothing for you. Ideally you want just enough influence to run all the laws you want, with a bit left over for diplomatic deals. 

0Send private message
7 years ago
Jan 18, 2018, 5:11:13 PM

Well, cram exam and all those generic one have no upkeep whatsoever anyway. So that is besides the point. 


Also, if there is something specific to each faction that makes sense, I would just argue that the whole design is just pretending the choice, because in the end there no choice. You play A, you should take law b. 


And I still wonder where you get the influence from to do that, because why would I not just spam more ships faster? And why would I not just claim minors with influence instead? 


But then again, maybe I am just playing it all wrong.

0Send private message
7 years ago
Jan 18, 2018, 5:21:04 PM

I'm playing this game for a year, and I really think they should lower law cost by factor of 2. Population grows up front of ways to generate influence.

Maybe rescale upkeep from 1/2/3/4 to 0.5/1/2/3.

0Send private message
7 years ago
Jan 18, 2018, 7:01:38 PM
Dreepa wrote:

Well, cram exam and all those generic one have no upkeep whatsoever anyway. So that is besides the point. 


Also, if there is something specific to each faction that makes sense, I would just argue that the whole design is just pretending the choice, because in the end there no choice. You play A, you should take law b. 


And I still wonder where you get the influence from to do that, because why would I not just spam more ships faster? And why would I not just claim minors with influence instead? 


But then again, maybe I am just playing it all wrong.

I don't think you're playing wrong. Just think it's about priorities.

After a while, there aren't that many minors to claim, especially if a Lumeris or Horatio finds them first. I let laws guide the way I'm playing the game so often make sure I'm providing the right techs and hero skills for it. Most heroes have a way to boost influence, and I'll make that a priority if I want to keep my influence upkeep high. I've rarely had a problem with it. Other people might want to prioritise other things, so laws will be less of a factor in their games. I guess the point is, the option is viable if you prioritise influence.

Even then, it's not too difficult. The influence wonder provides 50 influence per system level plus 15%. So that's 115 influence per turn on a 1 tier upgrade, content (even more if happy or ecstatic), system. That's enough to run 30 population on two laws alone. Throw in some basic influence generation, happiness, and a few influence buildings here and there, and you have more than enough.

0Send private message
7 years ago
Jan 19, 2018, 11:56:29 PM

Influence is pretty well balanced imo.

It balances right out with the amount of pop overall. This is nice when it comes to expansion. Now, expansion isn't just approval-limited but influence limited as well. With the difference that laws can be canceled.

It is adviced not to do so. And if I have to cancel laws, then it's a big sign that I haven't focussed on influence enough.

Sure, I can colonize lots of systems fast, conquer here and there but these systems also have to be strengthened with my influence.


As it now is, it pretty much acts as a fail-safe and a nice one on that, too. Ages before I run into approval problems, I see overpopulation when I take a look at my influence.



Adjust your playstyle. Overexpansion/population is real and in combination with influence it became a good mechanic.

Updated 7 years ago.
0Send private message
7 years ago
Jan 20, 2018, 3:44:01 AM

Everything goes crazy mid to late game.You have loads of everything.Something need to be done to make choices later on as important as early.

0Send private message
7 years ago
Jan 20, 2018, 4:08:08 AM

I guess your right. It is probably more a matter of the expensive laws sometimes being available very early I assume, tempting to overstretch influence.

0Send private message
?

Click here to login

Reply
Comment