Dragar wrote:

Edit: I'm pretty sure flak doesn't interact with the warheads.

You sure?

Just yesterday I saw my warheads being destroyed without detonating.  I am assuming it was because of the flak.

Is that not supposed to happen?

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:

However, I will admit that the current system is a bit tricky to understand and predict, especially for new players, and Ashbery's assesment might be right. The paths your flotillas take are actually pre-determined by the range of your flotilla and the one it is directly facing, with other flotillas having no impact on that selection, but these combinations can lead to absolutely ridiculous "battle plans" that feel like the different ships are not coordinating one large battle at all. This makes cross-flotilla fire almost impossible to predict for anybody who hasn't spent countless hours experimenting with the combat system.

(Great to see you still active Cat ^^)

I think this unpredictability can be resolved by allowing us to simulate the enemy trajectory by clicking their cards in the preparation screen (which lists all available cards they have).  Doing so allows us to see what trajectories your own flotillas and the enemy will take depending on how the card you and they choose interact.

This would add more clarity and provides a tool to plan things better without taking away from the need to try and predict what the opponent will do and the composition of his flotillas.

While I agree that balance needs a bit of work (and almost always does), I don't agree that the ES1 system was better than the ES2 system. And I do not agree with changing battle cards during the fights, as that would run counter to the desired goal of cinematic battles only providing additional information rather than a tactical advantage, and would also probably require a complete rewrite of the combat phase system.

However, I will admit that the current system is a bit tricky to understand and predict, especially for new players, and Ashbery's assesment might be right. The paths your flotillas take are actually pre-determined by the range of your flotilla and the one it is directly facing, with other flotillas having no impact on that selection, but these combinations can lead to absolutely ridiculous "battle plans" that feel like the different ships are not coordinating one large battle at all. This makes cross-flotilla fire almost impossible to predict for anybody who hasn't spent countless hours experimenting with the combat system.

For that reason, I would like to conclude my post with a bit of shameless self-promotion: I have created a mod that defines much more sensible (but boring) paths for ships to follow in battle, which can be found on the Steam Workshop and be discussed in the modding section: https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/forums/75-modding/threads/29432-combat-path-rework

If you mean the cannons that wipe entire flotillas in one shot found in Deniable Operations, then the answer is, as KnightofPhoenix says, flak. Lots and lots of flak. I have seen ships shoot them down as it is a projectile, and it can be seen as one in a battle. Which is one of the reasons why decking out your ships entirely with lasers is asking to be wiped out. Or have your ships taken by boarding pods. Or wiped by missiles. Or eaten by bombers. If you use it with swarm missiles though, you're probably in for a good time.

Missiles could still do with a little love in the early game, or rather, anti-missile flak could do with tuning down, but once you attach the new EMP modules, they become a lot better, as the EMP disables flak cannons. The anti-weapon EMP is generally good for all projectiles, as it allows your ships to get in closer. The rail guns are very good damage as well. The newest modules offer up a lot of new possibilities with the old weapon modules that weren't there before, and encourage you to watch battles more to work out precisely what weapons people are using.

SaintIndus wrote:

Guys, lets admit that we can fight and win using only beam and lazers.
Seriusly, we dont even need kinetic modules, and we DO not need three community update modules and fighters.
Please, make battle interesting again, like in ES1. We dont really need battle tactics. We can only build Carriers and dreadnoughts to win. Its awful.
Return es1 battle system, please ;(

Some constructive balancing suggestions would be appreciated. Otherwise I don't find this to be helpful.

Dragar wrote:

KnightofPhoenix wrote:

Dragar wrote:

Edit: I'm pretty sure flak doesn't interact with the warheads.

You sure?

Just yesterday I saw my warheads being destroyed without detonating.  I am assuming it was because of the flak.

Is that not supposed to happen?

It's a giant laser battery isn't it? I don't think flak has anything to do with it.

I am not sure it counts as an energy weapon actually, but a projectile.

I am not 100% sure as to how or why, but I did see the warhead destroyed before impact.  Unless it was a bug.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:

Dragar wrote:

Edit: I'm pretty sure flak doesn't interact with the warheads.

You sure?

Just yesterday I saw my warheads being destroyed without detonating.  I am assuming it was because of the flak.

Is that not supposed to happen?

It's a giant laser battery isn't it? I don't think flak has anything to do with it.

TheFunMachine wrote:

Suis3i wrote:

SaintIndus wrote:

Guys, lets admit that we can fight and win using only beam and lazers.
Seriusly, we dont even need kinetic modules, and we DO not need three community update modules and fighters.
Please, make battle interesting again, like in ES1. We dont really need battle tactics. We can only build Carriers and dreadnoughts to win. Its awful.
Return es1 battle system, please ;(

....The AOE module is the strongest in the game by far. Although it fires once per turn (so 3 times per battle) it can rip apart most fleets. 

Actually, on this topic, have has anyone figured out would a good counter would be for the nuke cannons?

Focus your fleets on carrier and cruiser class ships; try not to bunch them up and spread them out. Also, equip the Nano-tech (3rd tier) repair bots (sorry can't remember the name right now) since they repair 15% per battle phase and they stack. 

It's best to equip weapons modules that kill opponents quickly since you want to destroy ships that have the AOE modules quickly, before the next battle phase. 

Or just use your own, I run Vaulter Fleets with 4 Carriers (2 with fighters/bombers, 2 with Laser Cannons), 2 Cruisers, and then 1 Corvette with all the large ships equipped with AOE modules on their heavy slots. It basically destroys everything. I also have 3 nano-tech repair bots for 45% health regain. 

TheFunMachine wrote:
Actually, on this topic, have has anyone figured out would a good counter would be for the nuke cannons?

Flak seems to destroy the warhead, from what I have seen. 

Which if anything makes the nuke cannon a bit weak considering it only fires 3 shots and they have a high chance of being destroyed before impact (unless you fire several of these).

Suis3i wrote:

SaintIndus wrote:

Guys, lets admit that we can fight and win using only beam and lazers.
Seriusly, we dont even need kinetic modules, and we DO not need three community update modules and fighters.
Please, make battle interesting again, like in ES1. We dont really need battle tactics. We can only build Carriers and dreadnoughts to win. Its awful.
Return es1 battle system, please ;(

....The AOE module is the strongest in the game by far. Although it fires once per turn (so 3 times per battle) it can rip apart most fleets. 

Actually, on this topic, have has anyone figured out would a good counter would be for the nuke cannons?

Yeah it's really not worse than ES1. It is more interesting IMO. It is just that balance has swung the other way. Amplitude needs to make smaller tweaks now instead of massive ones that swing the pendulum too far. And some battle cards need fixing because they haven't been adjusted along with the ongoing balance work.

I also prefer the ES2 system.  You need to put a bit more thought into the composition of your flotillas and which battle tactic best counters the opponent.  I have found it more engaging than the consistent broadside battles of ES1 (and as was mentioned, long range kinetics was ridiculously OP). 

There are 2 major flaws in ES2's battle system however:

1- Balancing, which is easy enough to fix

2- Flotilla trajectory / lanes that are difficult to predict.  This could be fixed if we are allowed, in the battle advanced preparation scene, to click on the enemy cards to simulate their own trajectories and how they would interact with our own.  This would help solve the unpredictability of different tactics interacting. 

With ES1 full load of long-range kinetcs was the king, so the current system with Beams is not all that different. Honestly, I prefer the ES2 system - cards in ES1 were a pain to assign every time the AI chose to suicide a stack of ships on a large fleet.

SaintIndus wrote:

Guys, lets admit that we can fight and win using only beam and lazers.
Seriusly, we dont even need kinetic modules, and we DO not need three community update modules and fighters.
Please, make battle interesting again, like in ES1. We dont really need battle tactics. We can only build Carriers and dreadnoughts to win. Its awful.
Return es1 battle system, please ;(

I mean ES1's wasn't even that great, and yet it's a huge step up from the battle cards system we've been saddled with this time around.  The bizarre and unintuitive interaction between lanes, fire arcs and fire timing that is almost impenetrable makes it even worse.  It's so bad I almost wish the combat were just pure auto-resolve :/