I don't see why Arks can't still be flexible with fewer All Must module slots. It's not like you can't still switch them around, but you can't have these ridiculous stacks of percentage bonuses we have now. The recurring problem of ES2 is Support modules being stacked until things like distance or planetary defenses no longer matter because you cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye and carry more Manpower on one ship than someone has in their entire military.

Halve the slots, double the flat values.

WeLoveYou wrote:

Suis3i wrote:

Yeah, I never pay them off partly b/c it seems like a waste of dust, and since you have to do it every turn it gets rather annoying; plus invading them seems just fine to me. 

I used to build straight science and essence until I unlocked a majority of the techs but then I switched to industry early since I started getting a number of colder planets that helped alleviate the scientific cost. So I'll probably do some more experimenting in the other way and try out invading systems for essence instead of the leeching modules like you do lol. 

And yeah, the strongest asset of the Vodyani is the FIDS bonuses, it's really strong. But that's why I think of them as a late game faction b/c those FIDS bonuses stack up so well, and coupled with the FIDS techs, it makes their systems stronger than any other. 

They do survive early game but can be more easily rolled over by an invading enemy faction than others, though our experiences could be different as that is how Endless games work lmao. 

You are right though that the Vodyani do play differently than the other military factions; they vary in times in how strong they can get and don't snowball as fast as the others. 

Though I don't think the Horatio is the weakest early game faction, as I've never seen them die off in the early or mid parts of the game 

The AI loves Horatio as it gets loads of FIDSI population bonuses at higher levels, and Horatio gets the highest pop per system, and can get it fairly fast. When a human plays them, you realise that your ships are close to worthless until you get out the mid tier ships, and you have to pour significant resources into getting those minor faction systems. They are great fun, but definitely weaker than everyone else in terms of military for a good amount of time. I remember Plutar saying that he's never seen them win a MP game for that reason. You have to hope that no one looks at you funny, and manpower up all your systems early rather than depend on ships. Anyway that's maybe a topic for another thread. The point was only that there are other factions with early game struggles, but they are considered fine, probably because of the way they are perceived as a non-military focused faction.

Mmh alrighty we'll leave it at that so we don't detract the thread lol 

I have won more MP games as Horatio than any other faction.

Well I just played a non modded vodyani five way ffa today, I achieved science victory by turn 80 easily due to rushing ark tech. I never used a leecherand only used brainwashed minor civs for the science and the manpower. By turn 11 I had my second ark, and the ark time decreased by halves from that point forward. By turn forty it was clear I was going to win because nobody chose to invest in the vodyani hard counter and that is boarding pods due to there manpower difficultu.

I have nevet in a mp game had to micro arks, make sure I was using the proper essence modules to keep militaru pennance going for manpower, and I was lucky enough to get the proper tier one luxory that allowed me to pop arks out at a insane rate past turn 35.  Each ark then fundamentally increased science essence and production and I took everything in sight. My fleets were never in the game at max power and I would have easily fallen to boarding pods due to manpower shortages. Pennance is NOT enough, its not even half of whats enough to keep a shipbound faction.

Another thing, the arks have way way too many modules. I would prefer to chose two high powered modules per ark and have them revolve around the strength of the system instead of getting seven plus modules to equip.  The number of modules make them OP and the lack of manpower makes them the most easily counterablerace in the game. Please can we see some racial balancing to make all factions comepetitive and fun.  I am affriad that the races are becoming a once you discover the gimmick on how to play them whether its intended or not they become op or then and only then comepetitive. 

Fun game, buy vodyani should not be able to have over ten 24cc fleets with zero manpower and be able to stack science modules to beat even the mighty sophons to science.

The thing about Vodyani vs Horatio is that Horatio can't impose their will on other empires until the late game, but between Food and Manpower they still have some benefits for surviving the early game. A late game empire gets to impose its will on others later, but still needs a way to defend themselves without being a threat to opponents until then.

The problem with Vodyani is that they can definitely impose their will on others if they snowball- in fact they're too powerful if they snowball, as plutar notes- but have no early game insurance policy like Horatio does. So they either get crushed early, or spiral out of control if left alone.

I agree with plutar regarding the Ark modules. They should have their own slot classification so we can still have engines, but only have 2 Ark modules tops. Add in an All Must Fight module boosting Manpower and Ark defenses and the Vodyani would have less ability to snowball so quickly, but greater ability to repel early aggression so they have a chance at reaching late game.

I am a vodyani player myself and when i play alone i use "Vodyani Rework" mod
It addreses most of Vodyani problems.
Suggest you and devs to take a look at it and add some features into the game.

Reducing the number of Ark modules would be a huge help for micromanaging what Arks have what modules on them. Right now it's a real pain.

Dragar wrote:

Reducing the number of Ark modules would be a huge help for micromanaging what Arks have what modules on them. Right now it's a real pain.

Not sure if reducing the number of modules is an answer - doing so would gut the potential flexibility of an Ark. What needs to be done though is a change to the way ark designs are handled. Managing each ark individually or at least having several saved ark templates would be godsend. 

Also marking a tier of the module on the icon would not go amiss - as it stands right now it's impossible to tell "all must tithe 1" from "all must tithe 3" at a glance. 

Leraje wrote:

Dragar wrote:

Reducing the number of Ark modules would be a huge help for micromanaging what Arks have what modules on them. Right now it's a real pain.

Not sure if reducing the number of modules is an answer - doing so would gut the potential flexibility of an Ark. What needs to be done though is a change to the way ark designs are handled. Managing each ark individually or at least having several saved ark templates would be godsend. 

Also marking a tier of the module on the icon would not go amiss - as it stands right now it's impossible to tell "all must tithe 1" from "all must tithe 3" at a glance. 

Agreed.

I like the extra modules, it makes them more flexible, and I end up with several Ark types.  I tend to manage them individually.  Having saved Ark templates would be very helpful.

Imho, ES2 is very start dependant, no matter which faction you chose to play.  If you get a really good start, it's relatively easy to win, even at Endless difficulty (presuming, say, a couple og hundred hours practice).  If you get a really bad start, you can even struggle on Hard (which can often be more fun than an easy Endless start).

Suis3i wrote:

Yeah, I never pay them off partly b/c it seems like a waste of dust, and since you have to do it every turn it gets rather annoying; plus invading them seems just fine to me. 

I used to build straight science and essence until I unlocked a majority of the techs but then I switched to industry early since I started getting a number of colder planets that helped alleviate the scientific cost. So I'll probably do some more experimenting in the other way and try out invading systems for essence instead of the leeching modules like you do lol. 

And yeah, the strongest asset of the Vodyani is the FIDS bonuses, it's really strong. But that's why I think of them as a late game faction b/c those FIDS bonuses stack up so well, and coupled with the FIDS techs, it makes their systems stronger than any other. 

They do survive early game but can be more easily rolled over by an invading enemy faction than others, though our experiences could be different as that is how Endless games work lmao. 

You are right though that the Vodyani do play differently than the other military factions; they vary in times in how strong they can get and don't snowball as fast as the others. 

Though I don't think the Horatio is the weakest early game faction, as I've never seen them die off in the early or mid parts of the game 

The AI loves Horatio as it gets loads of FIDSI population bonuses at higher levels, and Horatio gets the highest pop per system, and can get it fairly fast. When a human plays them, you realise that your ships are close to worthless until you get out the mid tier ships, and you have to pour significant resources into getting those minor faction systems. They are great fun, but definitely weaker than everyone else in terms of military for a good amount of time. I remember Plutar saying that he's never seen them win a MP game for that reason. You have to hope that no one looks at you funny, and manpower up all your systems early rather than depend on ships. Anyway that's maybe a topic for another thread. The point was only that there are other factions with early game struggles, but they are considered fine, probably because of the way they are perceived as a non-military focused faction.

Excited to read that you Dev's are looking at these issues - I have now had a game where I have surmounted the early pirates, and boy do I feel powerful. Certainly very fun.

I haven't got to the late game, but I am churning out arc's like there is no tommrrow! If I gat a chance to finsih the game I cant imagine this being anything otehr than a victory.

Sorry - somewhat ignorant here... 

   How do you use luxuaries to get +bonus FIDS pere population? 

   Can this work with other races?

I relise I am wrong but I thought luxuaries were only used to 1-modernise systems, 2-make it more likely a given type of population would breed, 3-temp gain a minor factions trait/essence bonus and 4-sell on the marketplace

Please can you give me the heads up of where I am wrong, and anything else you might be able to do with luxuaries which I have missed!

P.S. Can Vodyani gain minor faction traits at all - and if so how/where are they listed?

JamesHarrison wrote:

Sorry - somewhat ignorant here... 

   How do you use luxuaries to get +bonus FIDS pere population? 

   Can this work with other races?

I relise I am wrong but I thought luxuaries were only used to 1-modernise systems, 2-make it more likely a given type of population would breed, 3-temp gain a minor factions trait/essence bonus and 4-sell on the marketplace

Please can you give me the heads up of where I am wrong, and anything else you might be able to do with luxuaries which I have missed!

P.S. Can Vodyani gain minor faction traits at all - and if so how/where are they listed?

1.  When you use luxuries to increase population chance it also buffs the FIDSI of the Pop.  It works with all races.

2.  The Vodyani gain Minor faction Traits when Brainwashing a Minor Faction or completing their quest. They appear in the Faction Overview screen where all of your other traits are listed.

So is this "too stong" or "does nothing"... I am confused.

I could certainly go onto the population section and pay for a boost to Vodyani. Did it do nothing? It should not be an option if it does not work, and it should not be overpowered if it does...

And sadness - It would be nice to actually work on the horatio - I really like them as a faction.

MANoob wrote:

Some corrections here:

-You can only boost a pop that actually grows with food, so vanilla riftborn or anything with their visuals is excluded. A custom faction with non riftborn visuals that has "adept workers" like riftborn pop would work though

-While you can boost Horatio pop to get a nice food and happiness bonus, additional effects you get from splicing are not doubled (if they were that might actually make Horatio a strong faction)

The cost of the boost scales with your total population, which is highly beneficial for shipbound/vodyani as your actual population (it counts the number displayed in a system rather than the number of "worked" planet slots) is usually relatively small compared to other races.

Huh, I really thought it worked on Horatio's boosts and for Rifborn. That's sad.

Just finish play as Vodyani, they're seems very weak at first. But if you managed to survive till to 50 turns with 3 systems colonized, the galaxy is yours. If you found minor faction straight away brainwash them, you can take over their system later on. 

Provided you can somehow survive the early game, they actually become stupid strong later on.

Yea this is with all the buffs like Obelisk of All Space Time and Omnipotence reward from the Academy quest line and all, but their ability to pretty much break FIDSI late game lies right within their Arks - FIDSI support modules. You simply stack 8 of All Must Serve III and then bam! you instantly get 800+ industry on a system with just 1 pop and 1 planet. Of course that said bonus is multiplicative so as you build system improvements you get more and more out of those FIDSI modules.

So no they aren't weak at all if you ask me.

YertyL wrote: I think another part of the reason Vodyani feel weak ATM is also their faction quest that gives minimal rewards for relatively large investments (pirates at turn 5). 

Maybe they could also just spawn with 2 scouts ships to help early scouting and fights, both crucial for the faction.

Agreed. Few things are more frustrating than thinking you got a good start as the Vodyani by finding a Minor Civ relatively close by...only for one of the pirates from the quest getting randomly dumped on the exact system with said Minor Civ, potentially interrupting or delaying your early Essence flow. Again, none of the other factions have to deal with that level of combat that early on. Even the starting Craver quest only requires you to deal with one ship, if I recall correctly.

Starting with two scout ships would definately be one of the many things that could help balance out the Vodyani's weaker early game.

Having tried out the vodyani for the first time yesterday - I became trapped in my starting spaces by pirates spawning blocking off my acess to the rest of the worls - by turn 30 I had basically gained one population, about to gain a second and 20+ turns away from my second arc. It seemed thad a bad start could ruin the game - those pirates spawning completly screwed me. I'm going to try them again, but +1 for doing something to give them an opening game that makes me want to play them!

I agree with op here. the Vodyani is indeed one of the more challenging race to play in the early game, and even in the late game they are actually not that strong either, but at late game the essence problem basically goes away, because you will have many systems, and some of them will always be dedicated for essence production. 

I believe the big difficulty for Vodyani in the early game is that they heavily depends on essence sucking, but your empire could be relatively far away from minor civs, which takes the player awhile to get there, and once you get there, the minor civ is about to spawn their own fleet. secondly, man power is a big challenge for the Vodyani in the early game, because their pop grows very slow due to the food problem. 

After sinking 150+ hours into this game, I still could not find a good strategy to play the Vodyani. and in comparism, the Cravers are much easier to manage. 

Gzar wrote:

Vodyani have manpower issues making them very hard to play but they're far from weak. They are easily one of the strongest races because they have godly industry/science thanks to ark modules.

You can actually play them without leeching at all.

Here's victory on turn 80 on quick on endless difficulty wihtout building a single leecher over the course of the game. The ark essence modules are enough to sustain you.

Pirates should not be a problem since you can just roll them over with an ark if they get really troublesome but putting your hero as an admiral and giving him a fleet should be enough.

Thanks a bunch for the advice and the video link. I'll definately have to give that a try. I actually always wondered about just equipping a bunch of Essence modules on an Ark, but was worried that I'd be gimping the rest of my FIDSI too much, and that it still wouldn't be enough to make up for not having a Minor Civ to leech off from.

RadasNoir wrote:

Gzar wrote:

Vodyani have manpower issues making them very hard to play but they're far from weak. They are easily one of the strongest races because they have godly industry/science thanks to ark modules.

You can actually play them without leeching at all.

Here's victory on turn 80 on quick on endless difficulty wihtout building a single leecher over the course of the game. The ark essence modules are enough to sustain you.

Pirates should not be a problem since you can just roll them over with an ark if they get really troublesome but putting your hero as an admiral and giving him a fleet should be enough.

Thanks a bunch for the advice and the video link. I'll definately have to give that a try. I actually always wondered about just equipping a bunch of Essence modules on an Ark, but was worried that I'd be gimping the rest of my FIDSI too much, and that it still wouldn't be enough to make up for not having a Minor Civ to leech off from.

I've never built a leecher ship and only use the one given for scouting. For the Arks, I focus on mostly Essence, then science and industry and those generally keep me afloat. Also try brainwashing minor civilizations since it gives you 15 essence and a lil extra resources and act as a buffer state (they also can't be assimilated by other factions). 

Suis3i wrote: Also try brainwashing minor civilizations since it gives you 15 essence and a lil extra resources and act as a buffer state (they also can't be assimilated by other factions). 

Yeah, if I'm not gonna need to leech off from Minor Civs for Essence as a result of using the Ark module strategy, then I might as well still get some use out of them.  

RadasNoir wrote:

Suis3i wrote: Also try brainwashing minor civilizations since it gives you 15 essence and a lil extra resources and act as a buffer state (they also can't be assimilated by other factions). 

Yeah, if I'm not gonna need to leech off from Minor Civs for Essence as a result of using the Ark module strategy, then I might as well still get some use out of them.  

yuuuupppp

Awesome

So, I really dig the Vodyani aesthetically, but I often have a hard time playing as them, since they seem to struggle to hold their own against the other factions, especially in the early game where it feels like a bad start impacts them way more than any of the other races. I've noticed this with the Vodyani AI as well when I'm playing against them, as they tend to be the weakest faction the entire game, but especially early on.

Thinking that I may have just been missing something, I decided to go browsing around for guides and such. Some of the guides I found were quite old, dating all the way back to early access, and it seems that even back then the Vodyani's early game often decided whether or not they had any shot at all for the rest of the game. I also recently went browsing around here, and came across this thread promoting a Vodyani rework mod on Steam, which seems like it has some good ideas for fixing some of their problems. So, it definately seems like it's not just me, but something the rest of the player community has long since acknowledged as well.

So, have the devs themselves ever talked about how the Vodyani seem weaker compared to the other factions? And if they have, have they ever talked about any plans to make them more consistent? 

Hi,

As you can see the issue causes debate; the Vodyani are definitely an advanced faction to play. However some problems do have a consensus (like manpower for them) and we are working on improving those.

Best,

They are definitely not weaker than other factions, they just get some time to get used to as some of the their traits run counter to other factions. In my playthroughs at least, early science modules are more important than industry to get those important techs. You can specialise later, but for most of the game you'll want to have arks completely decked out with science. You industry comes from population and buildings. 

Population is more important getting more colonies. Two rounds of pop is cheaper than an ark in terms of essence for your first ark, and gets you more essence faster, meaning the downtime is less than you might think. For later arks, it becomes even more efficient to get the population asap.

Unlike other militaristic factions, you'll want to play defensively for a good amount of time, never leaving an ark exposed (especially with pirates) until you have a few system upgrades. Use the population boost luxury constantly for double the FIDS on your population, buy it on the market if you need it. Basically, you can stay competitive on 3-4 high planet systems for a good amount of the game. You'll eventually have more essence than you really need, which makes manpower hardly an issue, even if you were struggling before.

In terms of getting essence early, put an engine on your first leecher. They move exceptionally fast and you only really need enough essence to get your first population and ark rolling. After that, leecher designs are better used as siege ships or long range scouts if you really need them.

The only place I think Vodyani could get some love is in regards to pirates and to some degree early manpower. Arks are just a little too vulnerable early on to pirates, and it's not always so easy to get out a defensive fleet in time to stop them from rolling you over. Half of this is the damage nerf arks get before they are upgraded, and other half is their hull weakness. Reducing hull weakness before upgrades would go a long way in making them defensible. Reducing the cost of the essence to manpower conversion to 150 rather than 300 would help with that.

There's no question they are an 'advanced faction', but they are hardly skill capped. The fact is even if you play optimally, there are many concerns that just cannot be worked around. Show me the Vodyani player who can survive an early Endless Cravers rush next door and still win the match, or the Vodyani who can survive an invasion by an experienced player. AI is nowhere near confident nor creative enough containing Arks, while humans can do it comfortably and shut down the entire faction in a few turns.

This high end potential we see is only ever a consequence of passive AI.

The only matter of debate is whether you take into account their late game potential as a balancing factor. I would be inclined not to, since it in itself is out of proportion and requires attention just as much as their downfalls. I think it is telling that in order for us to consider Vodyani a credible faction, they require the ludicrously overpowered exponentially stacking All Must modules. That alone should highlight the eminence of the other concerns.

Regarding matters on which there is consensus, would you not agree that the fact the Vodyani can start with between 1 to 4 colonised planets is a hugely disruptive variable? It cannot be modded, and setting that to a default value would alleviate early game disparities meaningfully.

In fairness, most people don't survive a Craver rush next door. Even with no tech lead, their fleets are 1/3 better than yours. It's not often that a Craver AI just storms at you, but if a human does it in MP, chances are you're toast. That doesn't change the point about arks being a bit too vulnerable in the early game though, and I do think this is something that should be looked at.

In terms of bad starts - nearly every faction suffers badly if they get a bad start. I don't think this is exclusive to Vodyani, nor do I think they suffer any more than anyone else. If the Tchinomy system is bad, and every nearby system is bad such that you can't pack up and move there, then I don't see how that kind of start wouldn't be awful for everyone else as well. That's a general, and genuine, issue with starting balance that maybe could do with another look, but not really Vodyani specific. It is true that they benefit more from an excellent start than anyone else, but that's a point in their favour - if you get unlucky then you're no worse than anyone else who gets unlucky, if you get lucky, you storm out of the gates.

jhell wrote:

Hi,

As you can see the issue causes debate; the Vodyani are definitely an advanced faction to play. However some problems do have a consensus (like manpower for them) and we are working on improving those.

Best,

Yeah, I'm thinking that I may have wanted to start off just asking for advice first, before questioning the faction's potential as whole. That being said, it is good to hear that the Devs are indeed aware of some of the more persistent problems players currently have with the Vodyani.

Aitarus wrote:

Regarding matters on which there is consensus, would you not agree that the fact the Vodyani can start with between 1 to 4 colonised planets is a hugely disruptive variable? It cannot be modded, and setting that to a default value would alleviate early game disparities meaningfully.

Something that I've been thinking about, is that it's kind of weird that the Vodyani really need colonization tech at all, since they are Shipbound, after all. Maybe, as apart of their unique Faction affinity, they should have a weaker version of the Ecologist law that lets them colonize all non-gas planets? Weaker, as in they get an ever greater penalty for possesing planets they do not currently have have the colonization tech for?

The biggest balance issue is the player.Every race becomes overpowered in their own field mid to end game when the human is in charge..The issue is the A.I cannot do the same.

WeLoveYou wrote:

They are definitely not weaker than other factions, they just get some time to get used to as some of the their traits run counter to other factions. In my playthroughs at least, early science modules are more important than industry to get those important techs. You can specialise later, but for most of the game you'll want to have arks completely decked out with science. You industry comes from population and buildings. 

Population is more important getting more colonies. Two rounds of pop is cheaper than an ark in terms of essence for your first ark, and gets you more essence faster, meaning the downtime is less than you might think. For later arks, it becomes even more efficient to get the population asap.

Unlike other militaristic factions, you'll want to play defensively for a good amount of time, never leaving an ark exposed (especially with pirates) until you have a few system upgrades. Use the population boost luxury constantly for double the FIDS on your population, buy it on the market if you need it. Basically, you can stay competitive on 3-4 high planet systems for a good amount of the game. You'll eventually have more essence than you really need, which makes manpower hardly an issue, even if you were struggling before.

In terms of getting essence early, put an engine on your first leecher. They move exceptionally fast and you only really need enough essence to get your first population and ark rolling. After that, leecher designs are better used as siege ships or long range scouts if you really need them.

The only place I think Vodyani could get some love is in regards to pirates and to some degree early manpower. Arks are just a little too vulnerable early on to pirates, and it's not always so easy to get out a defensive fleet in time to stop them from rolling you over. Half of this is the damage nerf arks get before they are upgraded, and other half is their hull weakness. Reducing hull weakness before upgrades would go a long way in making them defensible. Reducing the cost of the essence to manpower conversion to 150 rather than 300 would help with that.

I agree with almost all of this, except that I think they are weaker until you can get that FIDS bonus really going. Which only occurs around late game. 

Also, the industry and science modules mostly depend on the planets you get. If I start off with colder planets that lack industry, I tend to put at least 1 or 2 industry modules for a level 2 Ark instead of the science one and focus the rest of getting essence since it's quite slow even with leechers (which take quite a bit to produce). 

For pirates, is it a bug or can you not create a non-aggression pact with them ? I figured it was a feature unique to the Vodyani because they hate pirates, due to some pirates relation to Isyander and the fact that the Vodyani look down upon any non-Vodyani.

You can have a defensive pact with pirates, but it wears off pretty fast, and gets incredibly expensive as you have to spend dust to get all the way up to cordial. It's a bit wonky right now in terms of how quickly relations degrade. You shouldn't have to pay them every other turn. There's also some issues with them attacking population ships, but that's not an issue for Vodyani. I think that everyone should be able to pay with influence for a non-aggro pact with pirates (like Vaulters). The Vaulters get the free portal travel, which is a big enough advantage to have with the pirates without the additional benefit of not having to spend dust. Maybe that would make pirates too easy to handle, not sure tbh.

I used to go for a mix of science and industry modules, but I found getting the colonisation techs up faster paid off a lot quicker. After I get my second ark, I'm not usually too fussed about leeching/ark essence modules, and would rather invade to get essence. It also pays off in the long term. Once you get those final ark module techs, you're pretty much 95% of the way to any victory you want, either churning out ships for military victories, massive amounts of dust for economy, or just finishing off the science techs. Maybe I'll go back to experimenting some more, but so far the science focus early and mid game has been consistently winning through playthroughs. The FIDS bonus from pop boosts is enough I find to make up for the industry. Ignoring any other bonuses and sources, 3 boosted Vodyani on a fully colonised Tchinomy system (always 4 planets) produce 384 FIDS (96 industry) when boosted. Compare that to the UE (with 12 pop) - 24 (influence) with the same boost, or Lumeris - 60 (dust) with the same boost, it's actually absurd how good their population are. Riftborn don't get pop boosts. *sad robot face*.

So I don't really think of them as a late game faction. When they get strong depends on a lot of factors that is more to do with how easily you can get out those first arks and population, which can come earlier or later. It's sometimes just a matter of patience and making opportunities, but they have the tools to survive the early game just fine as long as you don't get greedy. I find the complaints a little strange to be honest, as the weakest early game faction (and also the strongest late game faction) by far is Horatio, yet no one has complained about that for ages. I really think this comes down to expectations as most military factions are powerhouses right at the start, whereas Vodyani can take some time to get the ball rolling.

Yeah, I never pay them off partly b/c it seems like a waste of dust, and since you have to do it every turn it gets rather annoying; plus invading them seems just fine to me. 

I used to build straight science and essence until I unlocked a majority of the techs but then I switched to industry early since I started getting a number of colder planets that helped alleviate the scientific cost. So I'll probably do some more experimenting in the other way and try out invading systems for essence instead of the leeching modules like you do lol. 

And yeah, the strongest asset of the Vodyani is the FIDS bonuses, it's really strong. But that's why I think of them as a late game faction b/c those FIDS bonuses stack up so well, and coupled with the FIDS techs, it makes their systems stronger than any other. 

They do survive early game but can be more easily rolled over by an invading enemy faction than others, though our experiences could be different as that is how Endless games work lmao. 

You are right though that the Vodyani do play differently than the other military factions; they vary in times in how strong they can get and don't snowball as fast as the others. 

Though I don't think the Horatio is the weakest early game faction, as I've never seen them die off in the early or mid parts of the game