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Bug? Misunderstanding? Bad luck?

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7 years ago
Feb 22, 2018, 5:28:47 AM

A pirate fleet spawns (from a level 3 lair) containing 2 "pincer" ships (1 cp each).  These ships are attack class, have an offensive power of 107, and have an accuracy of 100% at long range but 25% at short range.  From this, I infer that each is armed with 2 of the basic starting missiles.


My fleet has two explorer ships (1 cp each) armed with tier 2 slugs (i.e. one tech level higher than the pirates' weapons).  Since slugs come with flak included, I presume they are intended to counter missiles.


  • Equal number and CP of ships
  • My ships have a higher offense rating
  • My weapon specifically counters their weapon
  • My ships have a higher defense rating
  • My hull plating is also tier 2, while my shield is a curiosity unlock that is stronger than tier 2
  • The overall fleet-power gauge at the start of the combat is about 75% filled with my color
  • I use the "turtle" tactic to close range and further increase my hull plating

Seems like I should be equal or winning on every axis, and I expected to win basically unscathed...but instead, they destroy me handily (both my ships destroyed in phase 2; theirs have around 50% and 75% health remaining).


Why?



From watching the video of the battle, it seems like my flak is only shooting down 1 missle out of each salvo of 4 (consistent across the whole battle).  This seems inappropriate.  Even if each ship is only protected by its own flak, my ships have 2 flak guns each, and each flak gun has a damage rating of 3x the missile's health.


Based on the explanation in this thread, each flak gun should be firing twice per salvo with 80% accuracy and more than enough damage per shot, which means I should take down an average of 3.2 missiles per salvo (more if the second ship's flak gets to fire at even partial effectiveness).


Bug?  Huge nerf since that thread was updated?  Have I completely misanalyzed the situation somehow?  Or am I just incredibly, consistently unlucky in every single salvo of the battle?




EDIT:


Salvo 1:  My flak stops 1 out of 4 missiles

Salvo 2:  My flak stops 1 out of 4 missiles

Salvo 3:  My flak stops 3 out of 4 missiles (so it is possible, apparently)

Salvo 4:  My flak stops 1 out of 4 missiles, first ship destroyed

Salvo 5:  My flak stops 1 out of 4 missiles

Salvo 6:  My flak stops 1 missile, but the other 3 miss

Salvo 7:  My flak stops 2 out of 4 missiles

Salvo 8:  My flak stops 1 out of 4 missiles, second ship destroyed


Here is a save file if you'd like to watch for yourself:

AutoSave 81.sav


Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Feb 22, 2018, 12:25:56 PM

since they are attack class ships they get a 10% bonus on damage, and they probably have more health then you do. 


In addition you are right that they have missile weaponry but it can be any tier, and finally just a bit of random rolls with the dice but you can almost neglect that.

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7 years ago
Feb 22, 2018, 1:14:18 PM

Higher tier missiles have more health thus need more advanced Flacks to counter them. Also, missiles may have a lower DPS than your guns, but they do WAY more damage when they do hit, and high tier missiles will wreak your weak explorers (explorers have 1500 base HPs, the Pirates 2000 HPs per ships).

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7 years ago
Feb 22, 2018, 1:53:24 PM

Worth mentioning that enemy fleets pick a tactic too. If they went long range, likely their weapons became useful sooner than yours did.

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7 years ago
Feb 22, 2018, 5:36:37 PM


Lorco wrote:

you are right that they have missile weaponry but it can be any tier

Foraven wrote:

Higher tier missiles have more health thus need more advanced Flacks to counter them.


As mentioned in my first paragraph, they have a listed offensive strength of 107 per ship.  I opened my ship editor, selected an attack hull, and tried various combinations of missiles.  2x of the starting missile produces an offensive strength of 107 exactly.  So I'm 99.9% sure that's what they're using.


If you have a specific reason to think my analysis is wrong, please point it out.



Lorco wrote:

since they are attack class ships they get a 10% bonus on damage, and they probably have more health then you do. 

That hardly seems relevant in comparison to all the other differences.  In terms of simple damage ratio, just the fact that my slugs are a tier ahead should more than compensate for both of those.


I'm more interested in why my flak is massively failing.

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7 years ago
Feb 22, 2018, 5:50:04 PM
Antistone wrote:


Lorco wrote:

you are right that they have missile weaponry but it can be any tier

Foraven wrote:

Higher tier missiles have more health thus need more advanced Flacks to counter them.


As mentioned in my first paragraph, they have a listed offensive strength of 107 per ship.  I opened my ship editor, selected an attack hull, and tried various combinations of missiles.  2x of the starting missile produces an offensive strength of 107 exactly.  So I'm 99.9% sure that's what they're using.


If you have a specific reason to think my analysis is wrong, please point it out.



Lorco wrote:

since they are attack class ships they get a 10% bonus on damage, and they probably have more health then you do. 

That hardly seems relevant in comparison to all the other differences.  In terms of simple damage ratio, just the fact that my slugs are a tier ahead should more than compensate for both of those.


I'm more interested in why my flak is massively failing.

If you can, watch the battle live. That should give you an indicator of what is happening. A single flak module can take out two missiles and IIRC, only the flak on the targeted ship acts against the missiles due to the tiny firing arcs. Missiles fire twice (I think) per round. So it sounds like what is happening is that your flak modules are killing two missiles and another two are getting through which is killing your ships, probably with one dying at long range, and the other dying at medium range. Defenses are currently undertuned, so even if you are sporting slightly higher defense, that won't be a sure fire way to avoid losses. The devs are looking into it.

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7 years ago
Feb 22, 2018, 5:54:25 PM

As mentioned in my OP, I did watch the battle, and from the visuals I can see 4 missiles per salvo, but it looks like only 1 is being shot down by flak.  My ships have 2 flak guns each, so if one flak can shoot down 2 missiles, I should be stopping all four, even if only one of my ships gets to use its flak.


So according to you, my flak is only one-quarter as effective as it is supposed to be.

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7 years ago
Feb 22, 2018, 6:04:02 PM
Antistone wrote:

As mentioned in my OP, I did watch the battle, and from the visuals I can see 4 missiles per salvo, but it looks like only 1 is being shot down by flak.  My ships have 2 flak guns each, so if one flak can shoot down 2 missiles, I should be stopping all four, even if only one of my ships gets to use its flak.


So according to you, my flak is only one-quarter as effective as it is supposed to be.

Ah, sorry, scanned over that. It should be two unless they've changed the reload time with the new patch. The two flak modules probably won't have the firing arc to take out both sets of missiles coming from such a close point, so only one is functioning as flak. It's a little hard to tell without seeing the battle.

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7 years ago
Feb 22, 2018, 6:08:57 PM

I have edited my OP with a save file and a precise count salvo-by-salvo of the missiles' fates.  There was exactly one salvo in the battle where my flak actually did shoot down 3 missiles, but the overwhelming preponderance is 1 per salvo.

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7 years ago
Feb 23, 2018, 9:33:29 AM

Are all the missiles heading to one ship? Flak doesn't always have the range/arcs to cover even adjacement ships.

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Feb 23, 2018, 10:19:50 AM

Yes, the missiles are targeting one ship at a time.  I believe focused fire is a trait of the attack-type of ship.


In summary, I have two levels of concern here:


1)  Possible Bug.  The available documentation (from other players) says that I should be shooting down 3-4 missiles per salvo (even if flak ONLY protects the ship that it's mounted on).  I'm not averaging even half of that, which suggests something is not working as advertised.


2)  Balance Issue.  Slugs sure seem like they are intended to specifically counter missiles.  If ships with 100% missiles can take down ships with 100% slugs, when the slug ships have equal numbers and superior technology, they are clearly not doing this job.  So if this isn't a bug, it seems like a pretty serious design hole.


(In fact, based on the linked description of how flak works, I don't see how flak can possibly be balanced for its role in countering missiles, because one flak gun apparently shoots down the same number of incoming missiles whether it's targeted by 2 or 20 at a time.  Even at this low tech level, someone could plausibly field a fleet of 7 small attack ships with 3 missiles each; a same-size ship with max flak can't shoot down more than 6 of those 21 missiles, and the remaining 15 will still destroy it in one salvo.  If you can overcome anti-missiles by using EVEN MORE missiles, then what the heck is supposed to be the counter to massed missiles?  I can see how someone might arrive at this system by following thematic reasoning, but I don't see how it survives even a cursory game-balance analysis.)

Updated 7 years ago.
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