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How many techs?

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7 years ago
Mar 12, 2018, 11:37:26 PM

I'm not quite sure how to decide how many techs to research or skip in ES2.


In ES1, each tech had a fixed cost, and advanced techs cost exponentially more than less-advanced ones.  This meant that you sometimes would rush ahead to get an important tech, but eventually you should get just about everything, because even a bad tech is probably worth getting when it only costs a small fraction of your other options.  The order of research might vary, but in the long run I expected to get basically everything.


In Endless Legend, eras are unlocked based on the total number of techs you have, without regard to what era they're from; you could hypothetically unlock era 4 without researching a single tech from era 3.  More advanced techs cost somewhat more, but the main component of cost was the total number of techs you already had; there's no situation where you're choosing between 1 advanced tech or 3 earlier techs for the same long-term cost.  So I basically ignored the era a tech was from and researched whichever tech seemed to provide the greatest benefit, with the expectation that there would be many techs I never got at all.


Now, in ES2, every tech you get increases the cost of all future techs, but not not as much as in EL, and advanced techs cost exponentially more than earlier techs like in ES1.  Also, unlocking the next tier is based only on the immediately-previous tier, rather than the sum of all previous tiers, so researching extra early techs increases your costs without contributing towards unlocking a tier.


So if you want to unlock a given tier as quickly as possible, you need to research only the minimum number of techs from every previous tier.  From this perspective, every extra tech is wasted science for a tech that doesn't help unlock anything, PLUS it makes all the techs you actually need even more expensive!


On the other hand, if you look at only the immediate benefits of a given tech, earlier techs seem to often be more cost-effective, because they cost dramatically less science.  Additionally, if you research the bare minimum number of techs, you're going to have some pretty big holes in some areas (like only being able to unlock one of the two tier 1 strategic resources, or having a bunch of planet types you can never colonize).


So I'm having a hard time conceptualizing the true long-term benefits of getting or not-getting extra low-tier techs.  I'm not even sure if the design is intended to push me in a particular direction or not.


Anyone have a good rule-of-thumb they use to decide how many techs to research from a given tier?  Minimum to unlock the next tier?  All of them?  Somewhere in between?  Does it change depending on the tier or the stage of the game?


(Obviously, even if you're planning to get more techs from an early tier, there will be situations where you research a specific advanced tech first and then come back to the cheaper techs later.  I'm not asking what order to research them in, I'm asking how many you expect to research eventually.)

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Mar 13, 2018, 3:41:27 AM

Given how few turns and techs it takes to win (less than thirty techs for the science victory), it's best to switch to researching only the ones that you absolutely need early in the game so you can get them as fast as possible. There are only a few extra techs that are important enough that I'll research them before making that switch. Grouped by quadrant, the main ones are:


-None in the top quadrant. It's easy to field a strong fleet while researching only the minimum number of techs in each ring, and many victory types can get away with researching 0-1 military techs all game in single player (even military and science victories often limit themselves to 5-7 techs in this quadrant).

-Both of the first-ring techs in the right quadrant. As you point out, not being able to produce both titanium and hyperium is a big hole.

-A fair number of bottom-quadrant techs. Public-Private Partnerships is just too important of a system improvement to skip, so you're stuck researching both first-ring techs if you either start with the other one (as Horatio) or have a strong need to research it to colonize planets. Likewise in the second ring, it's often worth it to research three instead of two techs in order to get the stronger economic techs and colonize what you want to colonize. It can also be worth researching 1-2 fourth-ring techs even if you're not going to the fifth ring or have already unlocked it with the scientist party's mandatory law. F-Reality Institutes and Rip Singularities are particularly tempting.

-A situational set of left-quadrant techs. The ability to talk to minors is essential for everyone but the Cravers, so factions that start with the food tech will want both in the first ring, and the food tech is tempting enough that other factions might still sometimes want both. In the second ring, small hulls, the food tech and the colonization tech are all valuable in the right circumstances, so I might end up with all three. On rare occasions (mostly as the Sophons), I'll be hungry enough for influence to need to pick up Xenology for the SPIN project, in which case I can end up grabbing it along with two others.


There are some fringe circumstances that can lead me to go back and research extra techs (mostly discovering that I need them to colonize planets to get key resources) later in the game, but mostly the game involves unlocking the first few rings and picking up whichever of the above techs are required and then beelining whatever's necessary for my chosen victory condition starting sometime between turn 40-60 (normal speed).

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7 years ago
Mar 25, 2018, 10:45:08 PM

Thanks for all the detailed info!  A somewhat related question I have:


Is it often / ever a good idea to research a tech from a "higher" tier using the Science Party's "Oracle of Science" forced law?  I'm playing with a Science based faction for the first time, and so far haven't bothered to take advantage of it yet.  It always seems like I'm in a position where I can choose to research one of the "higher" techs using this law, but it will require ~12 turns to research, vs grabbing a tech on an unlocked Tier in just 3 or 4 turns.  And in most cases, whatever reward is given by that ~12 turn tech is something my empire is not yet equipped to make use of, such as a building or ship which requires 2,000 Industry while all my Systems only produce 100~200 Industry.


Is just going through the tech tree in a spiral fashion, unlocking T2 on all trees, then unlocking T3 on all trees, then unlocking T4 on all trees etc. the typical way to go?  That's what I've felt drawn to do.

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Mar 25, 2018, 11:57:27 PM

The main use of Oracle of Science is skipping past the fourth ring in order to get a science victory faster. There are a few other cases where I'd use it: the main two are skipping the second ring in the top quadrant for the same purpose if I'm lucky enough not to have needed any of those techs to defend myself from my neighbors and skipping a tech or two in the third ring of the left quadrant when going for a wonder victory. In general, though, it's just as you say: it's a lot of science to spend just to unlock something that you're not ready to build. There are a few fourth-ring techs that might be worth it (the one that adds two trade company subsidiaries or a shipbound affinity tech that unlocks better ark modules, for instance), but the factions that want them are not usually going to be running Oracle of Science.


As to the spiral pattern, it's not a bad choice, but there are better ones. Outside of multiplayer, a "just-in-time" approach works very well for military technologies. The AI gives you a fair amount of warning before it attacks, so you can often delay some of the top-quadrant techs until you get that warning and then research what you need to upgrade your ships and combine them into large fleets in just a few turns. This is an especially useful thing to do in the early game because some of the rings in the top quadrant make you build more experienced ships when you unlock them. Each level of experience gives your ships more health, but makes them cost more industry to build so when you're only fighting pirates, it can be better to save that industry (especially on exploration and colony ships, which of course have little need for health).


Even outside the top quadrant, there are times that you might want to research a high-priority third-ring tech before researching some second-ring techs, or a fourth-ring before third. Some examples are the tech that unlocks trade companies if you're going for trade routes (since the faster you get your first company going, the faster you'll unlock the second, level them both up and start making real money), the aforementioned +2 subsidiaries tech for similar reasons, the technology that unlocks wormholes (if you don't have good systems to expand to and so really need to get out of your home constellation) and any tech that makes your ships stronger or increases the fleet cp cap if you have an important fight coming up.


Finally, it isn't a terrible idea to delay Plasma Metallurgy until you have a planet with Hyperium or enough population on planets with strategic resources to make its system improvement worth building. Researching it before then just increases the cost of every tech that you research for no real benefit, and it's cheap enough that you can pick it up in a single turn once you do need it.

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Mar 26, 2018, 4:33:32 AM

I haven't tried it, but I wondered if Oracle might be useful to unlock luxury resources earlier so you'll have a bigger stockpile when you're ready to upgrade your systems.

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7 years ago
Mar 26, 2018, 4:30:31 PM
Antistone wrote:

I haven't tried it, but I wondered if Oracle might be useful to unlock luxury resources earlier so you'll have a bigger stockpile when you're ready to upgrade your systems.

It doesnt help to unlock "locked per tier" strategic and luxury ressources 


Bisous

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7 years ago
Mar 27, 2018, 2:54:34 PM

Thanks for all the details!  Wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some obvious application of the law.  And yes, that's a good point that there are few techs which give instant benefits without having to build anything, such as the CP upgrades in Military or ability to mine Strategic resources, so those might be mmore attractive for Oracle of Science (although again, I often find myself able to research 3 or more equally useful techs in the same time to unlock one of those.)


the technology that unlocks wormholes (if you don't have good systems to expand to and so really need to get out of your home constellation


Although, speaking of Wormholes, in most of the games I've played in ES2 I've never researched wormholes, since you unlock free-space movement before wormholes (opposite of ES1).  Am I missing some reason Wormholes are attractive?  It's never appeared to make any sense for me to research it, since by then I already can travel outside of star lanes, and thanks to Explorer probes I already know where all the nearby constellations are by this point, and may even have outposts/colonies in new constellations by the time Wormholes are even an option.  It usually appears to only save around 1 turns worth of travel, since wormholes consume all movement points anyway, and my fleets may have several "fleet movement upgrade" modules by that point.

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Mar 27, 2018, 5:01:37 PM

Wormhole travel can be especially faster if the two systems connecting constellations are decently far apart. But one of the biggest advantages it provides in the mid-late game is the application of trade routes across wormhole nodes. You can't move trade routes from one constellation to the next if they can't cross a wormhole tunnel.

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7 years ago
Mar 27, 2018, 5:48:03 PM
mrbiggs007 wrote:

Wormhole travel can be especially faster if the two systems connecting constellations are decently far apart. But one of the biggest advantages it provides in the mid-late game is the application of trade routes across wormhole nodes. You can't move trade routes from one constellation to the next if they can't cross a wormhole tunnel.

Ah yes, thanks, I completely forgot about this factor!  I suppose my last few games were either during the period where trading companies were nerfed and considered useless, or the one game as Cravers where trade didn't seem as usefull due to wars.

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7 years ago
Mar 27, 2018, 6:02:42 PM

Wormholes are by far one of my favorite techs!

In my current game, I can cross half of the galaxy in one turn thanks to well placed wormholes. It is particularly powerfull when another Faction does not have access to this tech and try to attack one of my core worlds using only free-space movement: It allows me to place a welcoming committee with 20 000+ power in the blink of an eye ;)

Updated 7 years ago.
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