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What do you think about AI expansion rate?

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5 years ago
Aug 30, 2020, 3:52:02 PM

I am surprised by the AI capability to expand in my current Horatio game (Normal difficulty).


Before turn 35 I got a message that the Sophons were about to win the game (Conquest victory).  By the time I got to their constellation, I took this screenshot on turn 70 (still haven't yet discovered all of their systems):



How are Sophons able to expand so fast on Normal difficulty? I am pretty sure it would be impossible for a human to accomplish this, correct? Or do Sophons have an ability that helps curb happiness issues? Forget the fact they have no pirates or nearby factions, those are possibly an issue too, but even under ideal circumstances such as this, I don't know how they could have been able to expand so fast and maintain it. Is there a way to debug a save to see what their planets look like?


Also, I think the "so and so is about to win the game by conquest" message needs tweaking. I don't think the Sophons were anywhere close to winning the game, so I'm curious why it came up so early.  They are definitely in the lead, but I assume maybe they were at the halfway point, at best (and probably not even).  My current game requires 22 systems to win it. Maybe I should turn conquest off with the AI expansion working like this, especially if it has expansion bonuses the player doesn't get.

Updated 5 years ago.
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5 years ago
Aug 30, 2020, 6:45:27 PM

I'm noticing that there are only 2 minor factions on this entire map (normal settings) and I think I've seen every constellation.  I think it's possible the Sophons assimilated or conquered 4 or more of their systems from minor factions.  I have been noticing that the spread of minor factions is sometimes unbalanced like this across map generation.

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5 years ago
Aug 30, 2020, 7:06:17 PM

By your given conquest winning conditions (22 systems/no alliance) the Sophons had 6 (or 5, not 100% sure) systems at turn 35. As long as I remember correct, the message "... is close to...-victory strikes in each time a player (or alliance) advances by 25% in a special victory condition. So you get 3 of the same messages for each victory type in game (at 25%, 50% and 75% solved). Indeed the pop-up text is missleading...

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5 years ago
Aug 31, 2020, 4:22:27 AM

I guess this is their way of making up for the fact that they decided not to show the status of other empires on the Victory screen. Yes, the English could easily be changed to make more sense.  

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5 years ago
Sep 5, 2020, 5:35:23 PM

I thought the victory message threshold was 50%, 75% and finally 100% when they win? What i will say is that the AI is aggresive in expansion. Only factions like Vodyani and Unfallen are limited in what they can do thanks to their respective Gameplay Affinity. Vodyani expand as fast as they get essence for Arks and Unfallen must entangle systems with Vineships. Unfallen must entangle minor factions to assimilate, hence another disadvantage in that regard if they run into a minor faction they want but is far from their vine network. Anyways, AI is aggressive in expansion and in assimilating minor factions. Try clicking Diplomacy tab, highlight Sophons and click the Empire Traits icon in upper right to show their current Diplomatic states with other Empires and the traits of their Empire. You can see whether or not they've assimilated other Minor Factions(and consequently their systems) that way. Some do so via Assist/Assimilate actions, while others do so via Conquest(only option for Cravers). I've seen Sophons with -70 overcolonization(thanks to Sleepers) so the AI tends to throw Loyalty to the wind in the name of territory growth(all the while gimping their Dust/Science income and Food/Influence production on their systems).

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5 years ago
Sep 6, 2020, 7:41:35 PM

Good to at least know they are getting the -N approval penalties.


I'm currently playing a Horatio game where the Riftborn have 14 colonies already.  I have 9/7 and having to really focus happiness buildings in a few systems to prevent Unhappiness and Revolt.  This is with a +2 Approval & +2 Hot Approval bonus on my Horatio so far, and Toys 4 Boys running. I have no idea how the Riftborn are able to do this, except to say that low Approval must not be so bad when you are in something other than Dictatorship. There is no way I could jump from 9 to 14 systems and be able to keep all those systems from Revolt. 


One thing that did hurt me was switching political parties.  I though that I would be able to use Propaganda to allow a new polital party to slowly rise, but after 10 turns in a row, in 1 system I noticed that it did not impact the next election at all, so I think that could be a bug. Not only did I not have new religious senators with the new pop, but there was 0 added religious sentiment to the system based on the propaganda (I only got a tiny amount of religious pressure because I researched 1 religious tech).


After switching back to Ecologists, I should be able to take a few more systems, but I doubt I'll be able to take 5 more to catch up. If this is "by design" for Dactorships, then that's not such a bad thing to know it's at least working as intended.

Updated 5 years ago.
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5 years ago
Sep 7, 2020, 2:57:37 PM

Riftborn are known as being a wide faction because each outpost they create is independent, hence doesn't draw upon from established colonies like it does for everyone else with respect to Food(except Vaulters since they don't have outposts with their super colonizer). If Riftborn get Thinkers and Tinkers I(Pulsos Minor Faction trait), they can colonize outposts in as little as 1 turn after they explore enough curiosities. Their population doesn't take Food and Industry production is unaffected by System Happiness, making them the ideal Wide Empire(although their Dust, Science and Influence output does take a hit if they go haywire on expansion). Fortunately for Riftborn, they have Biophobic trait. This allows them to forego Loyalty improvements since planet malus is largely ignored due to their Sterile bias. Riftborn also have +5 to Industry, Dust and Science on their population, making them one of the strongest population in Endless Space 2(outside of Cravers on unspoiled planets... Extreme Foremen on custom Gene Hunter is best custom faction to date for me. Unfallen are strong on Fertile worlds but only Fertile worlds, else your Horatio beat them with +3 Food). Furthermore, you can prevent rebellion by supressing it with force or by "bribing" the populace with luxuries. Only Government type where you don't have to do this is Autocracy(Dictatorship, rebellion occurs at Unhappy(29% Loyalty and below)). Also if you play on Harder Difficulties, the AI gets a flat Loyalty Bonus in addition to a FIDS bonus on their planets. This allows them to go crazy on colonization without having to worry about overcolonization(which gives them a huge early game advantage on Food, Dust, Science and Influence production).


My suggestion for you as Horatio is to focus on Gene-Splicing the following factions: Z'Vali(+1 Science, +2 Loyalty), Sisters of Mercy(+10 Ground Damage, +2 Loyalty), Kalgeros(+3 Loyalty) and Kal'Tik'Ma(+3 Loyalty). Doing all of them yields +10 Loyalty or enough to ignore every planet malus in the game. If you're lucky enough to Gene Splice base Horatio, eh you get +2 Food/+1 Loyalty as well. All other Major/Minor Factions yield FIDS yields, with base United Empire(not Sheredyn or Mezari), Baghba and Illo yielding +1 Influence respectively. Since you're in a Dictatorship as Horatio, I believe the Independent Laws are different than they are under Federation, Republic and Democracy where Senator Bob Act would yield +2 Loyalty(+3 in Republic) per person at the cost of -2 Dust per person. Thing is, if you Gene Splice those factions, you won't have need for Senator Bob Act, much less any Loyalty/Happiness system improvements.


If you have random events toggled, you get Kalgeros at some point in every game so that's a guaranteed +3 right there once assimilated. Just hope you come across one or two more of them to eliminate the bulk of planet malus on a system.


PS: Another tactic to take, and one I employed as Riftborn, is to utilize Benthic Gems. If you hold off on System Development and unlock Tier 3 Luxuries and are lucky enough for Benthic Gems to spawn in your sphere of the Universe, you can effectively eliminate overcolonization altogether by using Benthic Gems twice. Granted this only works on systems you colonize and quickly upgrade to level 4(won't work on colonies you conquer unless they're level 2 or below since you need two system upgrades to get the full Benthic Gem effect) but once you obtain Benthic Gems and upgrade your systems, you can colonize the Universe and never have to worry about overcolonization ever again(Conquest Victory = given at that point).

Updated 5 years ago.
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5 years ago
Sep 8, 2020, 6:57:29 PM

Thanks for such a thorough breakdown of Riftborn; they are the next faction I was planning to play (them or Cravers). I have only played UE, Unfallen, Horatio, Umbral Choir, Sophons and Lumeris, so far. I played Vodyani kind of once, but I quit pretty early in the game because I decided I wasn't ready to play them yet. Ditto for Hissho.


Yeah, I figured out pretty early that Approval should be the #1 priority for a Horatio player (maybe #2 after food actually, which helps to help speed splicing). Unfortunately in my game I don't have any of those factions past Z'Vali.  I am still waiting for that Kalgeros event; hopefully soon. I actually don't have any Industry gene splices avaialble either; this hasn't been a very ideal Horatio game, but that's life sometimes.


I am still curious how Sophons also seem to be a very wide Empire early, even on Normal difficulty, but I will just assume the AI is shooting itself in the foot when it expands so much. Probably going to war against Sophons early would always be a good strategy. That is actually what I'm doing in the Horatio game I restarted, since I was getting sick of them taking every neutral system near me. Now I just blockade everything.



Barf wrote:

Furthermore, you can prevent rebellion by supressing it with force or by "bribing" the populace with luxuries. Only Government type where you don't have to do this is Autocracy(Dictatorship, rebellion occurs at Unhappy(29% Loyalty and below)).

I have missed these options to bribe or supress: where do I find those? (I'm Dictatorship)

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5 years ago
Sep 8, 2020, 7:19:14 PM

When a system is in the stages of Rebellion(fist symbol with a turn timer towards rebellion), you'll have those options. If theyre not available, i believe its becsuse Propaganda can be used to stave it off since activating it usually improves system loyalty(if memory serves... never had loyalty issues with Horatio as crazy as that might seem).

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5 years ago
Sep 8, 2020, 7:27:06 PM

Yeah, I had no loyalty issues in my first game, since I got the Kalgeros quest early, but I'm past turn 70 in this game, and no quest yet.  I definitely did not have those options when I was teetering towards rebellion, but you're right that when I activated Propaganda, it raised the loyalty enough to take it out.  


Propaganda isn't often a usable solution to Rebellion because you can't produce any Industry under it. And from my play so far, it seems that Propaganda has no long term effect on improving the situation because it does not actually create any government influence pressure. It's only useful on systems that have finished their development and you want to maximize raw food, dust or science. Plus the minor bonus each government type provides.

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