I am very open to see where they take the Endless Space series with the second installment. Yes there are more Endless Legend "In Space" (TM) features than there are features from the original title - in addition to all the cool new stuff, but I wouldn´t let that discourage me. I did kind of like the original tech tree because you couldn´t just focus on one side - you had to balance things out - whereas now it becomes "easier" to balance things out I would say - without actually having played the game.

I think the EL-inspired hero system is great, I am so looking forward to the politics and popside since that is new and it looks absolutely amazing. I do agree with the posts above that not having done the basic research for somethig while being allowed to get the more advanced version is not very "historical" in a sense. However one has to take into consideration that the EL-type tech tree is not one progressive technology built upon another - it´s more like they are all very loosely coupled technologies that are in fact different inventions rather than interations of a previous tech. So researching Era3 weapons without having Era1 or Era2 weapons is plausible. Just like mankind could have discovered Gunpowder-based weapons without ever having invented Spears, Slingshots or Swords.

Well, I liked more the web from ES1. The era system made the very useful techs were unlocked in the same time as the less useful ones, so the research was very easy to change into a serie of ''must-have'' choices. Also, the techs from earlier eras are getting more expensive as the time flows, when it should be just opposite. 

That's my opinion. And sorry for mistakes (if they are).

Sir-Rogers wrote:

They cannot have those pre-requisites because it would limit the Sophon gameplay a bit, as their unique starting law enables them to reserach technology one era ahead. If let´s say half of those technologies would have era1 pre-requisites it would significantly lower the advantage of having that. 

May be it's hurting factions with scientific party. anyway, this law can be voted by any faction with enough support to this party, look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oncv3Yc4R5o. this guy goes from pacifist to scientist and this law is forced into his senate. Also this is in EA, so if prerequisites are introduced, the law can be modified in various ways to make it still powerfull enoug. As an exaple "You canresearch anything that fills its prerequisites, regardless its era", which maybe even more powerful.

I think that its eaqully bad having no prerequisites at all, than having strong fixed prerequisites like Civ games. for me one good thing of ES1 tech web was tha you can acces a tech from more than one previous tech, but still was lacking of flexibility. EL was the contrary to Civ (at least in terms of design).

IMO prerequisites like having titanium to research titanium weapons, makes a soft prerequisite (you can have it from loot or buy it, not only research the tech to extract) taht fills teh lore part, and also gives flexibility, as you can go to a tech by various ways. Also I have no problem with some/most of techs having only the rea prerequisite, as long as this doesn't goes directly against lore or makes a nosense.

uriak wrote:

What I meant is yes you can pick technologies all geared toward a specific strength (for instance all dust related tech) And pick an empire plan going with it. But it doesn't convey the same feeling as going down a tree branch with auxiliary perks going along the way (like naval tech is often associated with commerce and so on in other games) and it lacks a bit of character. Then the unit system is nail in the coffin for me. It's subjective I known, but after all 4X are still just about changing numbers with our actions, the narrative behind is up to us but can be impacted by the way the game presents the choices.

I've played 4x games with trees like that, and maybe it's literally just down to a personality difference, but I see no difference between the feeling of an empire building down a tech tree that includes some indirect perks, like the naval tech/commerce you mentioned, and picking out your own choices, that will by necessity include things that are more or less related and provide side-benefits (something I actually see as better in ES2, at least so far, with how they've done the planet colonization technologies). No difference, with one exception, that the former is more restrictive and limits your choices more for specific outcomes (say you want commerce, but have no interest in naval tech, still have to buy it).

But to each his own. I'm sorry that you feel you won't be able to enjoy the game as-is.

What I meant is yes you can pick technologies all geared toward a specific strength (for instance all dust related tech) And pick an empire plan going with it. But it doesn't convey the same feeling as going down a tree branch with auxiliary perks going along the way (like naval tech is often associated with commerce and so on in other games) and it lacks a bit of character. Then the unit system is nail in the coffin for me. It's subjective I known, but after all 4X are still just about changing numbers with our actions, the narrative behind is up to us but can be impacted by the way the game presents the choices.

uriak wrote:

I've retried playing EL several times lately, and well I loath the era pools. I've never felt I could commit in a meaning ful direction, it's more a game of what I shall not take in the current era before unlocking the other. Worse their unit systems means I cannot choose a specific strong point , since I can only take the two locked units or bypasse them. Say what you want but going with heavy infantry/calvalry/siege/navy other in civ games feels like a broader range.

I don't really feel the issue with hard link, the way they are laid can make or break it of course but it's still something the devs can design: in the pool system you only pick which level your tech could be. 

I don't really get that, but my friend in particular who has turned Broken Lords into an abomination of Dust producers who literally buy-out legions of armies, and entire cities, and all without hurting his population growth or whatnot, is able to get serious overspecialization out of EL's system, with massive score benefits and practical OPness.

On the other hand, I fully agree that the unit system is mediocre, and that with only four units total anyway it feels like a waste to have to research your further units, especially since they're really just different unit types with a few neat niches in combat for most factions (Necrophages are a big example to the contrary), and you can often be better off investing in cultural technology to absorb more minor factions: indeed, in EL I would almost prefer the army units just unlock in the new eras automatically. I hope very much the ship classes of ES don't become like that, but with what I've seen from how they can only use certain weapon types, it does look like they are from a hands-off perspective. Hopefully they're attached to a few other technologies so they don't feel as wasteful, and the gun restrictions don't feel too artificial.

I've retried playing EL several times lately, and well I loath the era pools. I've never felt I could commit in a meaning ful direction, it's more a game of what I shall not take in the current era before unlocking the other. Worse their unit systems means I cannot choose a specific strong point , since I can only take the two locked units or bypasse them. Say what you want but going with heavy infantry/calvalry/siege/navy other in civ games feels like a broader range.

I don't really feel the issue with hard link, the way they are laid can make or break it of course but it's still something the devs can design: in the pool system you only pick which level your tech could be. 

Sir-Rogers wrote:

They cannot have those pre-requisites because it would limit the Sophon gameplay a bit, as their unique starting law enables them to reserach technology one era ahead. If let´s say half of those technologies would have era1 pre-requisites it would significantly lower the advantage of having that.

I´ve said this before - I think it worked very well for EL and I don´t see it working another way, so since this game is a blend of the two flavours I think it´ll work out very well.

Regarding the technology tree - I think that lategame in EL the tech-cost scaling was not perfectly balanced and that´s something that should be considered. I think that in CIV the tech cost scaling had a better balance.

I think that outdated technology tech cost was too high to be realistic and prefectly balanced in EL. Maybe there could be a reduction on outdated technology based on how many eras ahead your civilisation is. It shouldn´t take a long time to research basic drive technology when your race is in Era5 and already has the most up-to-date technology, researching the primitive stuff should be more trivial.

I'm all for an EL style, with maybe a few pre-reqs here and there (particularly in design of racials I'm fine with pre-reqs), but I can't agree with your view of the Sophon ability. Even if they had era 1 pre-requisites, they'd still be able to be researched leagues ahead of time of the other civs, and you'd in most cases be adding the benefits of both technologies together anyway, so I don't agree that it would be a 'significant' reduction of that advantage, provided there aren't too many multiple pre-requisites, and it isn't like every technology has some pre-requisite. In fact, the lowered advantage would actually become less substantial as you advanced up eras, since in many cases you'd have the pre-reqs, just having researched them earlier potentially.

All in all though I'm a fan of what I've seen. Organizing into sections could allow some for some of our ideas like minor pre-requisites or soft-links where possession cheapens later purchases, to become part of the game later, and eras are a gentler limit than strict tech trees.

They cannot have those pre-requisites because it would limit the Sophon gameplay a bit, as their unique starting law enables them to reserach technology one era ahead. If let´s say half of those technologies would have era1 pre-requisites it would significantly lower the advantage of having that.

I´ve said this before - I think it worked very well for EL and I don´t see it working another way, so since this game is a blend of the two flavours I think it´ll work out very well.

Regarding the technology tree - I think that lategame in EL the tech-cost scaling was not perfectly balanced and that´s something that should be considered. I think that in CIV the tech cost scaling had a better balance.

I think that outdated technology tech cost was too high to be realistic and prefectly balanced in EL. Maybe there could be a reduction on outdated technology based on how many eras ahead your civilisation is. It shouldn´t take a long time to research basic drive technology when your race is in Era5 and already has the most up-to-date technology, researching the primitive stuff should be more trivial.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:

However, given the "soft links" they spoke about in the GDD, I think the current visual representation would pose a problem for showing said soft links in an immediate and accessible manner. Laying it out similar to ES1 and using the tree structure to show the soft links would have been the better option, in my opinion.

Reading this ^ I understand why this dude is a VIP. Nailed one of my problems whith Era trees. As I didn't like strong prerequisites like Civ or ES1, I found that no prerequisite tech at all like EL, makes sometimes a nosense. How can you research Titanium weapons if you don't know how to extract titanium, or at least have obtained some as loot?

I think that some prerequisites are important, like example of titanium, but also I think you sould be able to research titanium weapons once you've got some of this resource, regardless if you know how to extrat it, or you bought it and are not worried where it came from.

Maybe the solution to show erars and prerequisites is making a tech tree similar to hero abilities tree seen on ES2 videos. It allows to put a line showing prerequisites, and also group techs by eras which are unlocked in EL way.

Said taht in GDD they mentioned lots of prerequisites types (Like A+B to get C or A or B can unlock C) and tech mutually exclusive. Didn't see any of this in videos. Suppose this is something they won't give us in EA.

I´m going to postpone an open debate on the subject until we´ve actually tested the game. Since I sunk almost 1k hours into both games and I personally love both tech trees - I do have my own reservations from the looks of things and not because it´s been made into a "clunky" era system. Endless Space (1) would not work with Endless Legend´s tech tree system and vice versa. Since both games are being mixed into ES2 I can´t say at this stage what will work because I haven´t tried it yet. There are simply too many variables to be able to say anything concrete without playing the game in Early Access and later at the Release stage. 

The Hex-based combat in Endless Legend allowed for too much cheesing and real-time tactics that didn´t belong in a round-based 4X Strategy game - so going back to Enless Space roots with a more simplified combat is very much appreciated, as it makes factors other than your microskills important - especially ship design and technology. Now the ES meta was spamming quantity not quality ships - I hope to see that this has been changed.

I don´t think the EL tech system was bad, I think it´s the one thing that works - It does also allow for more flexibility if you think of it when doing your tech tree - you could attempt to rush highly advanced weapons, skipping the starting ones to further the economic development of your species instead. Yes - you could arguably do the same thing in Endless Space - I for one think the reduces tech-web is a good thing. It´s easier to look at in its current form, as long as it doesn´t get simplified too much.

[Planet Settling]: 1
[Humid Planet Settling]: 1

I think that might be what they meant when they mentioned "soft links". And if not, it was probably an idea they threw around if I thought of it xD

LordDarkon wrote:

But I want my science fiction games and stories to be more science than fiction, also, in late game you are often able to research 2-3 early techs within just one round, so that is no reason for not combining the two tree-types and staying with an 100% era system 

I think this might be a problem then, while ES2 is definitely more science fiction than EL, ultimately amplitude have emphasized a mechanism and flavour of science-fantasy over science-fiction, more Star Wars, than Star Trek. Dust was created specifically to allow them to have that mystical 'beyond-science' feel that stuff like the Force provides for Star Wars. 

That being said, I don't disagree with pre-requisites existing, as I pointed out some things just seem too obviously like they need prior basic knowledge in a field. At the same time though, a full tree seems overly clunky for what should at most be three-step pre-requisites, and at that only for some crazy advanced tech, or ones where it makes more sense (I always thought it was weird I could research alliances in EL without researching an ability to do peace). Specifically I think it's ludicrous for technologies like construction (general construction, not like build a super-lab for studying warp phenomena construction), weapons tech, and even mining technology, to have pre-reqs simply because they wouldn't necessarily rely on research in their field, and to make it more science-realistic you'd really have to tie such things to research into chemistry, physics, etc... anyway, which seems overly clunky and unfun.

UnderDarkLord wrote:

I see no problem with it being like Endless Legend's. Keep in mind that science in real life isn't necessarily linear all the time either, and that various technological leaps can be made 'jumping' what we would occasionally see as necessary in-between steps. I can see an obvious way it would be the case for agricultural technologies where things like fertilizers say, advanced ways of setting the chemical composition of soil could advance slowly out of crop rotation, but could also be something discovered once a civilization discovers chemistry, despite inferior crop methods before that period. While with some advanced sciences I could see there being more of a problem (hard for me, with our history, to imagine Einstein's relativity predating a more rudimentary and accessible Newtonian physics), various explanations could exist in a science-fiction universe making it easier, not harder, to develop technology with steps skipped in between.

The primary reason I support an EL type system however, is a case of finding it a little more useable. If partway through the game you find another faction is dominating you in your earlier chosen field, and you want to switch strategies for a win, it's much harder to do so if you have even one era's worth of technologies to research to get back on track, let alone if you have a pure tech-tree where you could see yourself 6-9 technologies back, and unable to recover. This adaptability is more important than a feel of grand empire planning, due both to giving you adaptability to small issues, as well as to large 'surprise' problems that simply demand you shift dramatically. Just as an example, let's say a Craver player, whose race was random and you are unaware of until turn 80-120, turns his sights on you due to your early-game good relationship with a neighbouring Lumeris, or perhaps due to effective diplomacy on your end to all your nearby minor factions. Should you be forced to develop lower and weaker weapons technologies to then be able to get what is necessary to compete in defense of your systems? I would say no. While I enjoy an overarching strategy, and trees certainly lend themselves to the large scale, I feel that you don't become unable to work on the grand scale with an EL style system with few or no pre-requisites, while lacking its adaptability can mean you've already lost, and just don't know it yet, with no real way back unless you're good at convincing other players it's in their best interests to help you (at best).

But I want my science fiction games and stories to be more science than fiction, also, in late game you are often able to research 2-3 early techs within just one round, so that is no reason for not combining the two tree-types and staying with an 100% era system 

I don't really have a problem with a system that does not have "hard prerequisites," either (even if I have always been a proponent of turning it into a soft barrier of increased costs).

However, given the "soft links" they spoke about in the GDD, I think the current visual representation would pose a problem for showing said soft links in an immediate and accessible manner. Laying it out similar to ES1 and using the tree structure to show the soft links would have been the better option, in my opinion.

I see no problem with it being like Endless Legend's. Keep in mind that science in real life isn't necessarily linear all the time either, and that various technological leaps can be made 'jumping' what we would occasionally see as necessary in-between steps. I can see an obvious way it would be the case for agricultural technologies where things like fertilizers say, advanced ways of setting the chemical composition of soil could advance slowly out of crop rotation, but could also be something discovered once a civilization discovers chemistry, despite inferior crop methods before that period. While with some advanced sciences I could see there being more of a problem (hard for me, with our history, to imagine Einstein's relativity predating a more rudimentary and accessible Newtonian physics), various explanations could exist in a science-fiction universe making it easier, not harder, to develop technology with steps skipped in between.

The primary reason I support an EL type system however, is a case of finding it a little more useable. If partway through the game you find another faction is dominating you in your earlier chosen field, and you want to switch strategies for a win, it's much harder to do so if you have even one era's worth of technologies to research to get back on track, let alone if you have a pure tech-tree where you could see yourself 6-9 technologies back, and unable to recover. This adaptability is more important than a feel of grand empire planning, due both to giving you adaptability to small issues, as well as to large 'surprise' problems that simply demand you shift dramatically. Just as an example, let's say a Craver player, whose race was random and you are unaware of until turn 80-120, turns his sights on you due to your early-game good relationship with a neighbouring Lumeris, or perhaps due to effective diplomacy on your end to all your nearby minor factions. Should you be forced to develop lower and weaker weapons technologies to then be able to get what is necessary to compete in defense of your systems? I would say no. While I enjoy an overarching strategy, and trees certainly lend themselves to the large scale, I feel that you don't become unable to work on the grand scale with an EL style system with few or no pre-requisites, while lacking its adaptability can mean you've already lost, and just don't know it yet, with no real way back unless you're good at convincing other players it's in their best interests to help you (at best).

LordDarkon wrote:
But I don't like the EL system D:
I like the Idea of splitting a tech tree into eras, but if you can just research the über-late-game-agricultural-tech without ever researching the most basic agricultural buildings, that is just wrong...

thats true I feel the same about it hope it will be like in EL

LordDarkon wrote:

I wonder if amplitude couldn't merge the trees....

A big three like in ES but devided into Eras like in EL. with the Ery 1 tech in the middle, the Era 2 tech around it etc...

Like in EL you have to discover a particular amount of tech in each era to unlock the next one

but like in ES its a tree, so you would have to unlock tech one bevore you can unlock tech two and so on...

Believe me, I have been pestering them with that very idea for ages. Practically since they posted the GDD that revealed they are using the "unconnected nodes split into eras" system from EL.

I wonder if amplitude couldn't merge the trees....

A big three like in ES but devided into Eras like in EL. with the Ery 1 tech in the middle, the Era 2 tech around it etc...

Like in EL you have to discover a particular amount of tech in each era to unlock the next one

but like in ES its a tree, so you would have to unlock tech one bevore you can unlock tech two and so on...

The new tech tree is separated into eras like in EL.