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4X combat in ES2 (Don't whinge at the hands off aproach)

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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 1:22:45 AM

There has been a lot od discussion regarding hands off combat in ES.  


Combat in ES2 is all about being an emperor.  Amplitudes vision is quite clear on this point.  This game is not and was never intended to be hands on when dealing with combat.  You are the empire builder not a fleet commander.  If you want to play hands on combat then lobby Total War to make a space game.  They are masters at RTS combat.  I like both aspects when they are done well.  ES2 in my opinion sets out and succeeds in the direction that this game is taking.  Make your choices and the rest is up to the gods of space.  It's galactic war where your heroes are the fighters.  Most 4X game fail miserably in direct RTS combat.  The expectations are always never met.  Crap graphics and mundane control mechanics have sent many a 4X game into oblivion.  Homeworld remastered and Total War Warhammer are the finest example of RTS done right.  ES2 vision of epic space battles between great empires is a refreshing take on this.  I can see a time when we might get to see real cinematic battles like many of us have seen in the best SI FI shows.  Bringing RTS to this game will ruin its pacing.  


What can be done to improve ES2 combat.  


Tactical over screen during battles.  This will show a god view of the battlefield, top down view showing all ships in the arena.  Tactical view also shows high threat targets and projected coarse.


Ability to designate hero ships to enter the combat part way through.  Imaging one of your flagship jumping into the fray mid way through and crushing your enemy when all looks lost.  This would provide innovative play and a reason to play out the most important battles.  


battle tactics at the start of conflict needs to be greatly enhanced.  Nelson at Trafalgar split the French fleet in two and went at them from both sides.  A battle plan needs this type of forward planning.  Options before combat is the key to diversity and ultimately victory.  I estimate at least eight strategy battle options available will provide unpredictable outcomes where the player has to play out the battle to see if there plan works.  It would also allow a smaller specialised fleet to overcome a mush larger one.  


Technology options for combat.  Without radar Britain would now be under German occupation.  A technology can drastically alter projected combat outcomes.  You could infiltrate an enemy fleet and hamper there effectiveness or send a virus during combat.  All these decisions and options need to be available during the battle plan phase.  You might only have two EMP devises available, when do you use them.  Which battles can you let slide.  Tactical options are the best way to effect the outcome in hands off combat.  


The American colonists kicked the British out largely because they had a clear moral stance that allowed them to mount an effective resistance.  Political cohesiveness can provide extra diplomatic choices that some battle plans could use.  If you have a strong senate with a clear mandate then a battle card buff could be available.  Cold war tactics could be employed in this area.  Imagine another empire has attempted to assassinate one of your heroes or even you the emperor.  A measured diplomatic reaction would be to take out a shipyard or takeover a single planet without declaring all out war.  The reasons we go to war are varied and often are a reactionary process.  I would like to see some innovation in this area.  This would be a great concept for espionage.  Infiltration is another tactic for creating a resistance.  Victory through destabilisation.  Sending populations into another empire could influence a star system to change policy or inflict penalties through negative buffs.


Just some thoughts on additions to combat.  





Updated 8 years ago.
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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 10:09:12 AM

I agree. There are other games in the 4X space genre that have unit by unit combat, but I think spec-tactical overview battles of Endless Space 2 reinforce its slower, turn-based pace. 


Ideally, provided we have a rich tactical level of planning our battles (and I think there are good signs of that in GDDs , i.e. taking into account anomalies around the planets where the battle is taking place), I would definitely want to watch and replay some of the battles. 


Also, it would be good to have the instant feedback of your choices as in ES1 where if you successfully countered your opponents strategy, your own got a boost.


Interestingly enough, the concept images in the GDD showed exactly what you describe: splitting your fleet into distinct units and having them perform strategic manoeuvres  like, err..Xenorian Pincer. It would be great to be have heroes with skills that add/unlock new manoeuvres. Unfortunately, at the moment it's pretty linear (long range, medium range, close range). I hope it's just the limitations of Early Access and not final design.



Updated 8 years ago.
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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 10:17:30 AM

I don't whinge at the hands off approach. I applaud it. 


As long as you get the AI tu build usable fleets it is the right approach. Furthermore - I like to play Football Manager Games. There I have some options before I send my team onto the pitch . Then I watch the outcome. We agree on this point. Let me plan a battle, lay out the strategy. What combat needs is excitement and this is entirely possible if you only manage your fleet and then send it off. It doesn't have to be Gratuitous Space Battles complexity, but hey I think for any 4x space game GSB is a reminder what is possible with a hands off approach.



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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 10:27:59 AM

Definitely agree with the top-down view, or at least for more helpful views. That'll probably have to come later down the line though. Though frankly, I'd also love to see a battle unfold with icons (basically, wedges shooting at each other) and watch what happens without graphics or a lot of waiting.


We definitely need more tactics, and selecting those ahead of battle (and possibly unlocking more with heroes) would add some interesting choices, both tactically and in terms of ship design.




On a slightly more pedantic point, about the American revolutionary war...the Americans also won because GB was broke and George III racked up a lot of debts. By being basically unkillable (never being defeated enough to be crushed, staying a step ahead of the British, hanging on by the skin of their teeth) they managed to make the war too expensive to continue. And when the French intervened...well that just clinched it. They decided to cut their losses and let it go, because victory, while possible (I'm not saying it was likely, but it was possible), was too expensive.




But as to the gameplay mechanism off of that, with having events happen in diplomacy to keep it interesting...well, another 4X is planning to try that. They're also in Early Access, but it's not yet implemented. There might be some cross-pollination there, especially if the mechanic adds something interesting to diplomacy.


In addition, Civ VI is adding Casus Belli to their diplomacy system, giving you good ways to avoid warmonger penalties for, say, wars of liberation or wars of defence (but only if you don't start taking that civ's original cities for yourself). I'd love to see mechanics like that be implemented, but yeah, it's Amplitude's game and I don't know if it would fit into their vision. Having good reasons for war though...that would be nice. Because yeah, war is complicated, and sometimes not fought for naked expansionism.

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