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Why Endless Space 2 is currently headed in the wrong direction...

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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 6:41:21 AM

I'm a strategy gamer who have taught classes at the university level on strategic decision making and Game Theory, so take what I have to say with that in mind or with a grain of salt.


I don't think you guys should focus so heavily on making really intensive graphics to make the game "LOOK" cool or to make these storyline quests for each faction. It literally is a massive undertaking that takes up resources and time in your production timeline without actually giving us, the STRATEGY GAMERS, what we want.


WHAT DO STRATEGY GAMERS WANT?

1. Meaningful choices and decisions.

2. Customization, customization, customization.

3. Strategic and tactical depth in terms of nuanced game play styles based upon different "builds".

4. Balanced Competitive Meta, which allows for a fair and competitive multiplayer environment to compete with friends and strangers.

5. Simple and Intuitive controls and User Interface, with neat and succinct Data layout. All Data must be relevant to player Choice and are Actionable... Data that is just fluff without actionable choices is just an eyesore that is ignored at best and a pain to look through at worst.


WHAT YOU ARE CURRENTLY MAKING BASED UPON MY PERSONAL PLAY THROUGHS OF THIS GAME:

1. Immense effort on making the factions visually satisfying and flavorful, by giving questlines, voice overs, and large portions of your budget... THIS IS A WASTE OF YOUR MONEY AND EFFORTS AND WE WON'T ENJOY IT!!! Why? It'll be fun the first time through... THEN, after we watched through all the cinematics and heard all the voice overs once... guess what? There is NO replay value... it brings NOTHING to the player once we've finished a first play through... all that voice acting, cinematics, and questlines will simply be IGNORED after the first play through. I will be asking the question that I'm asking myself now... "WHERE IS MY ABILITY TO CUSTOMIZE MY OWN RACE AND FACTION?" For example... Starcraft II's Legacy of the Void was so focused around cinematics and flashy graphics that they did not understand that the actual units they were making were fucking insanely IMBALANCED... and that one faction, the Terran could just point and click A with their army and kill everything while the Zerg has to Micro like a god with 400 APM in order to be able to respond to the Terran Army... THAT mistake only happened because they were so focused on the graphics... FUCK THE GRAPHICS... you are not making a game for people who play Farm Ville or Skyrim... We don't care about graphics... WE STRATEGY GAMERS are NERDS WHO USE OUR BRAINS... we THINK and we want to play strategy games because we are COMPULSIVE THINKERS... give us something we can really sink our brains into! NOT FLASHY LOOKING VISUAL STORY.... that's called a MOVIE, we can go watch movies at a Movie theater... MAKE A FUCKING STRATEGY GAME WITH STRATEGIC ELEMENTS AND DECISION MAKING PLEASE!!!

2. EXTREMELY cluttered and disorganized information display and user interface that is totally unintuitive. I can't even find where to hire new heroes... or does it even matter in this game? Heroes mattered a LOT in the first Endless Space, and in fact you have to make a decision whether to focus on them and whether to allocate your limited number of heroes as governors or as admirals for your fleets... there was a lot of planning and decisions there... in this current version of the game... not only is it hard for me to even FIND where the hell my hero is and how to hire a new hero, but also I am not even sure there's that much of an impact on my game to spend time tinkering with the Hero... in Endless Space the heroes made a MASSIVE impact... in Endless Space they feel like an after thought.

3. EYE SORE!!! OMFG EYESORE OW OW OW OW... STOP with the extremely disgustingly "detailed" data overload!!! Most of the information displayed are details that I DO NOT NEED TO KNOW!! WHY? Because I can't do anything to influence a LOT of the data in the game... it's just THERE and I can see it but I can't interact with it and therefore since it has NO IMPACT ON MY CHOICES, it is superfluous and irrelevant to my decision making process and therefore it's just there to be an eyesore, plain and simple... REMOVE IRRELEVANT AND EXTRANEOUS DATA!!

4. UI is a disaster... I simply can't find ANYTHING... can't you please make the UI more intuitive by... oh I don't know... HAVE A FREAKING MENU???? The Science tab is there... there's no military tab... no Economy tab... No diplomacy tab... no espionage tab... no ... you get the picture... YOu don't have to reinvent the WHEEL in terms of the UI... the UI of most 4X games are very similar for a very important reason! It's damned frustrating to try to figure out HOW TO make a certain decision within my game becuase I can't actually find the BUTTON to do what I actually want to DO!... It's like Windows 8 all over again... I don't want to have to read a manual on how to shut down my computer! FUKING STOP CHANGING WHAT WORKS!!! Windows 7 was amazingly intuitive and everyone did not need a whole USER MANUAL to use Windows 7... it just made sense because it was laid out the same way Windows systems had always been laid out... then Windows 8 came along and drove everyone up the wall... DO NOT MAKE A WINDOWS 8 WITH ENDLESS SPACE 2!!!! DON"T FUCK WITH MY UI.....

5. Complete overhaul of the Tech Tree... SO a lot of 4X games recently have been trying to do this... but honestly Endless Space (the first one) was hands down the best Tech Tree I've EVER witnessed in the 4X genre and here's why... it's BALANCED... In every multiplayer game, the individual researches almost always came just right on time to save my faction from being annihilated by my opponents. This says to me that the Tech Tree was well thought out in terms of being balanced competitively... that if I chose to go for a military research to gain an early rush advantage, the one going for an economic advantage could have enough of a benefit from their econ to be able to BUY the ships they lack in order to fight the early aggressor off... or the scientist would be able to have a tech advantage that would give them enough of an edge in a military struggle to be able to DEAL with the early military rusher... for example... But what you guys are doing is making a whole new tech tree... there are lots of risks... the first and most important is now nobody knows what researches to get and when to get what... Sooo at present I can't tell at all if it is a balanced system within a competitive setting... Oh and please keep in mind.. 4x? It's a competitive game. If you don't make it balanced around competitive play, then you failed.

6. Finally... are you kidding me with the whole making Hissho into a MINOR FACTION??? The Hissho was my favorite race in the ENDLESS GAME GENRE!!! OUT OF ALL THE TITLES that start with ENDLESS... HISSHO was my favorite faction! PERIOD! THeir faction ability was so flavorful! It made them more fun to play as a military faction than Cravers! I'd pick Hissho over Cravers any day of the week and I'll kick their Craver's asses too! But by removing my favorite faction the Hissho and making them a minor faction... I don't know... I just don't know... WHY ..... why would you do such a thing?! You are alienating fans!

7. DO NOT TRY TO REINVENT THE WHEEL!! Take from what works from other 4x games and make small innovations instead of trying to reinvent the wheel! A lot of new 4X games have been coming out... they all suck HORRIBLY... Literally every single time a new 4x had come out recently I sighed inwardly and said to myself "I'll just go play Endless SPace now..." But Endless Space 2 is IMMITATING THE FAILURES THAT HAVE BEEN COMING OUT LATELY!!! WHY?!! Did you look at their sales and player base? THey all SUCK!! They all made the same mistakes of trying to completely reinvent the genre! SOme did make interesting new innovations but at the same time they also made terrible mistakes... what you guys need to do is take the latest innovations that WORKED and put THOSE into the game and still keep what WORKED from before... Right now you seem to be throwing out eveyrthing that WORKED and are immitating other games the elements they put in that caused their games to FAIL horribly! Lack of Customizability..  Lack of meaningful player choices... Lack of impactful decision making process or depth where the game devolves down to just moving ships around a map and trying to out tech the enemy factions and out expand them as well... 4x should NEVER be about each of the individual X's on their own... it should ALWAYS be a matter of weighing OPPORTUNITY COSTS (Economics concept)... where you could choose either of the 4 directioins to go at any point in the game and there would be opportunity costs... and the player feels CHALLENGED because they have to make the best decisions given the situations... So far most 4X games play the same... there's no meaningful choices... it' sall just doing the same basic bland expansion and then conquest type pattern... and on top of that the ONLY difference and variance in these 4X games is the graphics and how each faction is "Marketed" ... please dont' be those games... Endless SPace was SUCH a brilliant strategic game with so many strategic nuances and meaningful decisions... 


What to STEAL from other games that WORKED:

Stellaris: In depth user customization for their own factions... I think I made over 300 factions for myself... creating a faction was like a mini game in itself and was a fun process... everything else in stellaris is just a carbon copy of what previously existed in the genre... the customization is to die for! STEAL THIS FROM THEM!

Master of Orion: This is a very stale game... no innovations but with the addition of annoying "news" commentators who annoy me and need to just have an option of being turned off... (hint hint... does it remind you of something such as YOUR questlines?) Everything else was pretty bland and generic that weren't innovative. Very little customization and none of it meaningful in any way... the resources were simple but it's like asking for Chess and only getting Checkers... LEARN from Wargaming's mistakes! Don't be Master of Orion! In fact, just be YOU... just be Endless Space! You guys had it right and everyone else got it wrong! Don't try to be like them! THey all suck!

Galactic Civilizations: This game got everything right except for one aspect, they failed to realize that most people can't spend 20+ hours to play a game with their friends... I can only play Gal Civ on my own in single player mode and that is no challenge at all... it feels EPIC and I have total control over every little detail in my empire, but it's NOT a competitive game and therefore fails to reach the full potential of a 4X game.

Civilization V: Civ V got one thing right that was amazing... they get competition! THey actually tried to balance their game for competitive play!! And it IS balanced! You could play any country and make a meaningful go at winning! I mean some factions were better at certain win conditions than others sure, but every faction felt like they had a meaningful way of competing! 


If you can just avoid the mistakes these games made and steal from what works on top of keeping what you had done in Endless Space that worked, you'd have a MONSTER on your hands... you'd make a totally BIG hit game that the "Strategy Gamers" will be talking about for years to come... Right now? Right now you're alienating the Strategy Gamers and making this game more interesting to the people who play games like Skyrim or Fallout... I mean, hey I play those games, but they're NOT strategy games... that's why they have nice graphics... if they had shit graphics I'd probably not play an RPG game... 4X games are NOT RPG games... so don't even go there... graphics is about the least important aspect to a Strategy game... Just look at Starcraft Broodwar... guess what? People still play Starcraft Broodwar... even to this day... what does that say about Strategy Gamers and how much they care about GRAPHICS? Hm?






Please don't make Endless SPace 2 the way you have been making it right now... I guarantee you, if you continue what you're doing with Endless Space 2 and focus so heavily on the RPG and graphical elements, you will LOSE the Strategy Gamers that is your target Audience... STRATEGY GAMERS care about CUSTOMIZATION, CHOICES, and COMPETITION... we could give 2 shits about graphics.

Updated 8 years ago.
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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 7:30:47 AM

I hope that your classes at the university are more interesting than this post.

You may have some good points but your message is barely readable. If you are here to give some suggestions then I advise you to put more effort in the form of your posts.


Take a look at some contributions from other members: https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/forum/66-game-design/thread/20795-balancing-the-vodyani . See? I think that’s way better.


When you use strong language in your sentences, and put everything in caps… well let’s say it’s hard for me to give you credibility. Now, you just look like an angry kid who is not happy with his toy. 


It’s sad because if you took the time to write this really long post, it means that you care about the game. Try to adopt a more neutral tone and give clear explanations on what you think don’t work, if you teach classes you probably know how to do it :). 

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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 8:21:49 AM

As mentioned above, I'm pretty sure your message will gain in clarity if you were summarizing your suggestions/concerns into bullet points, for example.

I don't really have the time to dive into your post; however, I just wanted to comment on two points.


  • Immense effort on making the factions visually satisfying and flavorful, by giving questlines, voice overs, and large portions of your budget... THIS IS A WASTE OF YOUR MONEY AND EFFORTS AND WE WON'T ENJOY IT!!! 

I don't desagree with you on the fact those storylines will be interesting when you first discover them, and then will be anecdotic after a few games. However, as a player, if I'm buying Amplitude's product is because they bring so much added value to this 4X format by being innovative and putting emphasis on building a strong universe. 

Also note that Devs already understood that point and already took some action by adding branches into those storylines in order to add more replayability.



  • I'm a strategy gamer who have taught classes at the university level on strategic decision making and Game Theory, so take what I have to say with that in mind or with a grain of salt.I don't think you guys should focus so heavily on making really intensive graphics to make the game "LOOK" cool or to make these storyline quests for each faction. It literally is a massive undertaking that takes up resources and time in your production timeline without actually giving us, the STRATEGY GAMERS, what we want.

I think here is my main concern when I read your message. There are many positive ways of triggering a discussion about your concerns on some game mechanics. However, I don't think that putting your background on the table to suggest your opinion is way stronger than the average and that you speak for a whole community of player, is one of them.

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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 8:52:40 AM

Howhowhathere.  Your Hissho point, I believe, is a valid objection.  Mostly still your opinion but valid.  Perhaps there is a faction coming down the pipeline that will fill the role Hissho play in ES1.  Personally I can't really agree with the rest of your post.  You clearly enjoy the Endless Space series and want it to succeed.  As stated by Haelmatrel, summarizing your suggestions/concerns into bullet points will help the community and the devs to get a better read on your thoughts.  

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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 9:54:30 AM

I disagree strongly with point number 1 (I'll be honest - I stopped reading after that because of the way you come across/the tone of your post). 


Spending time on 'flavour' for each faction whether it's the graphical style, soundtrack, or different story quests makes for a much richer experience and gives life to the universe. I seem to recall one of the complaints of Endless Space 1 when it first went into early access was the exact opposite of this, that there was not enough flavour and it felt sterile. Why do we need customisation of the races? I don't believe we do, they are all very unique and solid in their identities and that is part of the universe they are creating and was one of the great strengths of Endless Legend. If you want customisation then we will be able to create an entire custom race - we don't need to modify the existing ones.


It is also not mutually exclusive - just because they are spending time on these things such as graphics it does not mean that other elements such as the strategic gameplay will be neglected. Development is not often an either or proposition, you have multiple people and multiple teams working on different aspects concurrently. 

Updated 8 years ago.
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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 10:07:56 AM

Well I stopped reading after your first point. It is quite unreadable without any paragraphs.


But to say that a game developer studio should stop „wasting“ his time on creating visual stuff is pretty nonreflective.

Take a look at Aurora for example: http://s181.photobucket.com/user/sublightrun/media/Aurora%20LetsPlay/Thunder.png.html


Aurora is a complex and feature-rich game, without question, but it also looks like a bunch of excel sheets and what I’m searching is an intuitive UI which I love to use. Ironically someone on the 4Xgaming subreddit once wrote he plays this game at work and nobody once recognized that he’s playing a game, they even thought that he must do some crazy complex and important stuff when they took a look at his desktop

Updated 8 years ago.
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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 10:13:21 AM

"Why Endless Space 2 is currently headed in the wrong direction..." 


...in your opinion.


You want a Multiplayergame - I don't. ES2 would entirely head in the wrong direction if they focus on MP. 


Other than that - yup the UI is confusing.

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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 11:19:17 AM

On the visuals: This is an area where you have to look at marketing over gameplay.


I know for me the space battle visuals are mostly a complete waste. I will probably do them once in a blue moon for the super large battle, but 99% of my battles will be instant. But....space battles sell games. They look pretty as heck, great on the marketing material, people ogle them. 


Ultimately you got to do what sells, and graphics sell games....its as simple as that.

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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 1:11:30 PM

Hi,


I'm just adding my pieace to what have already been said.

Sir, the tone you use to express your worries (justified or not) could be interpreted as "offensive". You also need to clarify and summarise your ideas, because here... you go in every directions and it becomes hard to see what's your point exactly, and makes you look like you're having a fit or a tantrum. This will not help your message to hit the target.


As for your claims. Keep in mind that there are a lot of different kind of players. Some of "us" play casually, or are hard core gamer. Some are "archeologists", trying to get every bit of lore and background information, because they live their games as a good book or movie. Some live only for multiplayer and competition, or to get smashed by high difficulty games. Some just want to have fun with friends and just have "a good time" rolling on other AI.


See ? They must consider all those players, and what they want to do with their games.


I will speak for myself but, I'm a casual gamer and I like what they are doing. I really enjoyed ES and EL, because they provided me with different game aspects :

- From EL : stories ! big quests and events, lore... And if you want to see all of it, you have to play every faction.

- Storng diversity in factions. Not like Civ or Stellaris, where you have "just" some differencies tied to one or two units, or a preference toward a vicotry condition. But strong differences like... no food ? no science... Each faction plays a somewhat different game. And this add replayability.

- As for multiplayer, I play with friends, and rarely against them. I do not know if I'm alone in this case. But their games nail this for me (even if you don't share a victory screen or "true alliances").


I'm just saying this to make you understand that, you have your opinions, and I respect them. But you do not speak for everyone here.



As for your other claims... Most of them are only somewhat valid, why somewhat ? Because the game is in EA. And I will not say this to excuse every thing. But, you should spend some time reading their updated GDD. Most of what you are complaingin about are things they want to add, adjust or even make go further and beyond... I agree with you, it's not done yet, and all of them might not be done, ever. But they are trying. 



- space battles : They stated in their GDD that there will only be 3 different tacticts in the early phases of the EA, but more is planned to be added. Or as for research, some of them will be linked either by soft pre-requesit (titanium weapons need titanium to be extracted...) or by follow up research. There is a discussion about it somewhere on this forum. And I think that the actual design is way better thant the previous mad web, allowing to more versatility instead of having to make a line to what you need instead of almost directly researching it.


- UI : it's still undergoing refinement. And some things needs to be clearer, but with example (and screenshots) it's easier to tell them what is wrong and what is not. For exemple, I would like to see in the empire view, either directly or in a pop-up window, how many of a strategic ressource I earn per turn. I cannot find it easily. Yet.

Also some explanations and wordings in the pop-up windows are sometimes not clear (the gain per turn of FIDSI in system view : 120 food from people on planet. Which is not what we are "used to". I would prefer 120 food : +20 per people on planet (with 6 pop)), but it's as been already stated. And there is some issues with adding ressources (strategic or luxury) on some planets. The list would go down and sometimes disappear behind the planet on the system view. But I hope that it will be fixed. As well as the red bar for the manpower in recently conquered systems... where the red bar tries to escape on the left of the screen...


- Heroes : you must be kidding. Heroes have their own panel. As they always had, both in ES1 and in EL. You just have to make a building to access to the academy. If you do not have it, you won't see recruitable ones, just the one you already have, and you will be able to cycle through them.


- Competitive : Early Access. What is not clear in that ? It needs balancing, it will need balancing. There is only 4 factions at the moment, AI is still in the learning steps, only a few map an map sizes, and we do not have access to the mid/late game. What is more to say ? There is still work to do, but they are not advertising a finished product, am I correct ? You might find a map size and game speed to play in multiplayer that will get you 3 to 6H long sessions, enough to finish a game, with high enough difficulty set-up. Do not shoot on the multiplayer part before it's on...


- Customization : you will be able to tweak your game mechanics by adjustings traits. You will still have to select a "morphotype" of vessel or race, and the main quest associated. Less than stellaris as for the ingame characters... But every one of those in the game have a background. I think it's a balance to have. I would like to see in the modding or customization the possibilities to create our own heroes (name them, select a template, select a picture and background), but we will see... Customization is not oppen yet, but they will try to open the game to modding. Hopefully with good results.


- Population and politics : it's a little bit weird, and it will take time to adjust to it. but the different politics systems and how your decisions will impact how your population feels about you and your actions. I like it. It brings some things to act on. You complain about meaningful choices... How will the event boosting pacifists will help you in preparing for war ? How the ecologist faction will react ? How approval of your most exposed system to the cravers will be modified ? How much will it harm you by shifting your plans, removing the laws you enacted to pump out more ships ? This aspect of the game need polishing. But as I said. We only see early to mid-game... still in development... and maybe YOU need to play a bit more with the different governments types to get the one that fits you the most.



As for the hissho... I'm sad too... But at least they are in the game. Maybe we will find an other faction that will make our spines shivers by hearing to their lore, and get our brain high on adrenaline by playing them (Vodyani ? who said vodyani ? They need balancing for the ARK and approval..., but how god I love their lore...). Wait and see ;)


My point here is you cannot say things are wrong without nailing down exactly what is wrong and say it explicitly. And it would suffice if it was any other game company. Amplitude studios, with G2G try to involve their players in the game development. So if you want to say something is wrong, do it. But also bring propositions, bring ideas. If you do it nicely, at least you will be heard, at most you will be listened to.















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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 1:51:01 PM
Howhowhathere wrote:

I'm a strategy gamer who have taught classes at the university level on strategic decision making and Game Theory

I doubt that you have been to university at all - we´re not even going into the ludicrous point of having taught classes - because you seem to have missed out on the basic presentation skills that one should have as a part of their soft skills in general in life. I didn´t quote the rest of your post for this exact reason.


Also your language is really offensive and it´s a lot of anger directed towards nobody in particular. I would suggest that you get some professional help, as you clearly seem to have some issues going on. You might not even personally be aware of this. Please do not take this the wrong way, I am not trying to offend you - I am simply trying to offer up some help. I will not engage in a debate with you as to why I suggested it, it´s my personal opinion and you won´t be able to change it so please don´t try. Thanks.


Howhowhathere wrote:

What to STEAL from other games that WORKED:

Just for everyone´s benefit - there is no stealing unless you copy something 1:1 which is usually a bad idea. Amplitude had faction customization before Stellaris even came out. Stellaris is not a balanced game and provides for a rather poor Multiplayer experience, so it is not recommented to "steal" from Stellaris.


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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 4:23:56 PM

Hey dude, you can't write a big wall of text. It's hard to read.


But I agree (partly) with some of the criticism:

1. There is less customizability in Endless Space 2 compared with Endless space 1: shipbuilding, racebuilding and combat.

2. UI is less untuitive. Endless space 1 had a very clear and simple UI. Endless 2 is less intuitive, but maybe I just need to get used to it.

3. Hisho: For some reason the developers decided to make them a minor race. I don't like the Hisho though, but the developers need to understand that some people became fans of their earlier constructed races.

    This might feel like a punch to the stomach for some.


I disagree with graphics, I like better graphics. 


Personally, I'm a bit more conservative. I would be happy if they just remade Endless space 1, with the same UI, same races, same combat system, same race building system.

But with:

- Improved graphix like they have now.

- More races. So the old race plus new ones.

- Improved combat system: I also want to change my combat cards, during auto-resolve battles.

- Overal: small improvements, instead of radically warp the game into something else.


Endless space 2 has the same name as Endless space 1, but it became more like Endless Legends outer space.


Updated 8 years ago.
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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 4:30:20 PM

Although it was a bit hard to get into your text, I must admit that one point really fits me. I would like to see the Tech Tree of Endless Space 1. I must admit that I do not overly love how Endless Legend used to deal with this and I was a bit disappointed to see that ES2 took the same route. Each to his own I'd guess - but this "get that many steps before you can reach Era II" somehow hinders the individual strategy I'd like to use. Instead of focusing on military expanse like in ES1 I do have to research other techs I don't care about that much just to unlock the next Era. Is there any chance that the old techtree could find his way back into this already great game?


Cheers!

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