So the system upgrade component.  I like it, mostly but it has I think a major flaw that is very bad.  

Right now the way the component works is you choose an system upgrade at each Tech Era and at that time you decide on the resource to use, then you are locked in.  Furthermore each successive system upgrade must be built in order.  In other words you must be upgrade one before building upgrade two.

The major flaw here though is that if you find yourself, either through a bad decision on resources, or a shift in the map, without the ability to build one of the improvements, then it becomes absolutely impossible to build any of the subsequent ones.  I feel any system that can cripple a player completely without any option to work around it is bad.  Especially since in this case it will hit you in the mid to late game if it does.  The you find yourself having sunk hours into a game that you now essentially have to abort completely because there is no way to fix it.

In general I like the way the system works, but I think some tweaks should be made.  Either allow them to be built independently of the others, or have a way to work around the problem of missing earlier ones even if it is more expensive.  Maybe for each level you skip the cost is doubled or something.

It would seem to me that even if you just unlink them and make them separate build options, the end result is still the same as it is now but without the ability to totally screw over the player.  If you want to max out a system you would still need to build them all.

I don't find it's a flaw. It means you have to think of the resources you think are sure to securize.

But the problem is luxury resources aren't that plentiful, so there's not really a choice. Or you take a risk by using a luxury that isn't well securized or you use the one you can even if the bonus isn't the one you want/need.

VieuxChat wrote:

I don't find it's a flaw. It means you have to think of the resources you think are sure to securize.

But the problem is luxury resources aren't that plentiful, so there's not really a choice. Or you take a risk by using a luxury that isn't well securized or you use the one you can even if the bonus isn't the one you want/need.

I like that the decision counts, but I strongly feel any decision that can potentially destroy your later game is bad.  You should have some option to work around your mistake even if it costs you more than doing it right in the first place.

The decision point is fine, but what if things change?  Being locked out of further upgrades because you can no longer get that original one means you essentially have to stop playing and that is always bad.

It is also especially painful to first time players who don't even know this.

Bottom line though is you should never feel like you are totally out of options.  There should be some way to work around missing those earlier resources, even if that means paying more of the resources needed for the next tier, or some additional production.  Something.  Having a decision you make on turn 50 completely ruin your game on turn 100 is just plain bad design in any game.  Imagine if you were playing an adventure game and found out that a decision you made 30 minutes in, means that now at 2 hours in you literally can not complete the adventure anymore and have to start over.  Things like that are generally intentionally avoided in design.

I mean, can't you just go seize a system with that resource then? It's not like it completely halts your ability to function in the game. 

Or just protect the colony that had the resource in the first place. I like that this choice makes certain colonies more important--it's a decision with actual, real impact that we get to make. 

As far I as know there is going to be a sort of "market" functionality to the trade system, where you can buy special resources you need. It has not been implemented yet, but it should be a feature. I believe it was mentioned in the trade GDD. 

I think that pretty much is what you are looking for? 

Agathorn wrote:

VieuxChat wrote:

I don't find it's a flaw. It means you have to think of the resources you think are sure to securize.

But the problem is luxury resources aren't that plentiful, so there's not really a choice. Or you take a risk by using a luxury that isn't well securized or you use the one you can even if the bonus isn't the one you want/need.

I like that the decision counts, but I strongly feel any decision that can potentially destroy your later game is bad.  You should have some option to work around your mistake even if it costs you more than doing it right in the first place.

The decision point is fine, but what if things change?  Being locked out of further upgrades because you can no longer get that original one means you essentially have to stop playing and that is always bad.

It is also especially painful to first time players who don't even know this.

Bottom line though is you should never feel like you are totally out of options.  There should be some way to work around missing those earlier resources, even if that means paying more of the resources needed for the next tier, or some additional production.  Something.  Having a decision you make on turn 50 completely ruin your game on turn 100 is just plain bad design in any game.  Imagine if you were playing an adventure game and found out that a decision you made 30 minutes in, means that now at 2 hours in you literally can not complete the adventure anymore and have to start over.  Things like that are generally intentionally avoided in design.

This. The game is predominantly run by luck because of a thousand little things on their own. Something like this can possibly screw you down the road because of circumstances that are entirely out of your hands.

I'm honestly surprised they changed luxury resource use to this instead of having it continue to grant 10-turn buffs like they did in Endless Legend. Not to mention that the one-time cost, instead of a continued drain on that resource, means you can either make very few of them... or upgrade all of your systems.

I like everything else about how the system upgrades work except for the fact that they must be built in order and thus can cripple you later in game if you lose access to a resource used in say the first tier upgrade.  Just remove that requirement and I think the process works well.  To fully upgrade a system you would still need to apply all of them, but if you only have the ability to apply one or two you should be able to do that in whatever order you want.

MikeLemmer wrote:

I'm honestly surprised they changed luxury resource use to this instead of having it continue to grant 10-turn buffs like they did in Endless Legend. Not to mention that the one-time cost, instead of a continued drain on that resource, means you can either make very few of them... or upgrade all of your systems.

They've reverted to FIDS conversion being an endless construction project as well. I think they made a deliberate decision to move away from the 'booster pack' philosophy of Endless Legend.

Anyway, I agree that permanently locking in settlement upgrade choices is weird and doesn't really gel with how the rest of the game works. I think I'd prefer if you could build multiple types of settlement off the bat and upgrades let you combine various luxuries and/or improve their effectiveness.

atejas wrote:

Anyway, I agree that permanently locking in settlement upgrade choices is weird and doesn't really gel with how the rest of the game works. I think I'd prefer if you could build multiple types of settlement off the bat and upgrades let you combine various luxuries and/or improve their effectiveness.

Yes I think they could do with a little more choice, but on the other hand it's important that choices are, well, important.

Perhaps another tech that unlocks an alternative line of system upgrades, so you can specialise systems.